..:: The "Sputtering" Situation ::..
#11
03-21-2017, 09:39 PM
Hello Roverers...
...the Sputtering situation is getting hairy. the weekend before last I checked the spark plugs and connectors on passenger side and they all look well and pretty clean, maybe one (closest to firewall) was a little bit withe residue, but really looked in good shape. Connectors weren't loose, so no fault on that side.
When starting to check driver's side, the first plug I took out (first from the front) gave me quite some trouble getting it out, and even more so screwing it back in; in fact, don't think it went in straight nor completely. Then remembered that one plug gave me hell when replacing it 30K's miles ago, and it must be this one. Anyways, that incident made me abort checking the last three, so there might be some trouble coming that way down the road. I've been checking the plug to see if oil if sifting thru, but it looks pretty dry.
Thing is that the sputtering or jumping while travelling is still going on, especially when driving around 70 mph, that's when it does it more frequent and you can really feel it... like if you were rolling over grooves, at which point you feel the truck jerk or push forward abruptly... only noise in the whining high pitch noise that has been going on for quite some time without figuring out where it comes from.
I don't hear anything else weird going on, or feel anything else besides that jerk the truck does.
For some reason I'm thinking it might be the transfer case or transmission, Lately, after shifting to back up, then back to D to go forward and slowly start speeding up, on occasions I do feel/listen something odd or thump, then just goes away as soon as I drive off, but it is not something that happens every time, is random.
I do not feel or listen anything grinding, but again... the thumping or sudden jerk when travelling is a sign that something odd is about to happen.
Again, any feedback would be very much appreciated.
;-/#
...the Sputtering situation is getting hairy. the weekend before last I checked the spark plugs and connectors on passenger side and they all look well and pretty clean, maybe one (closest to firewall) was a little bit withe residue, but really looked in good shape. Connectors weren't loose, so no fault on that side.
When starting to check driver's side, the first plug I took out (first from the front) gave me quite some trouble getting it out, and even more so screwing it back in; in fact, don't think it went in straight nor completely. Then remembered that one plug gave me hell when replacing it 30K's miles ago, and it must be this one. Anyways, that incident made me abort checking the last three, so there might be some trouble coming that way down the road. I've been checking the plug to see if oil if sifting thru, but it looks pretty dry.
Thing is that the sputtering or jumping while travelling is still going on, especially when driving around 70 mph, that's when it does it more frequent and you can really feel it... like if you were rolling over grooves, at which point you feel the truck jerk or push forward abruptly... only noise in the whining high pitch noise that has been going on for quite some time without figuring out where it comes from.
I don't hear anything else weird going on, or feel anything else besides that jerk the truck does.
For some reason I'm thinking it might be the transfer case or transmission, Lately, after shifting to back up, then back to D to go forward and slowly start speeding up, on occasions I do feel/listen something odd or thump, then just goes away as soon as I drive off, but it is not something that happens every time, is random.
I do not feel or listen anything grinding, but again... the thumping or sudden jerk when travelling is a sign that something odd is about to happen.
Again, any feedback would be very much appreciated.
;-/#
Last edited by adolfojbonilla; 03-21-2017 at 09:42 PM.
#12
03-21-2017, 11:41 PM
Hello Roverers!
Since some days ago I've been feeling my 2002 DISCOVERY SII SE with nearly 162K miles "sputtering" a bit or just "jumpy". Initially it started when pressing the pedal to accelarate trying to overpass another vehicle, but just very mildly; now I've been feeling it when travelling in the 70s MPH, but have also felt it above 30s, again, very mildly, but you can feel it.
Only codes showing are the ones from "Three Amigos" (1520 if I recall well), and 0420, Bank 2 Converter not working properly; these two have been present for a very very long time, the latter comes and goes, so these are nothing new. No other warning light or signals are being shown.
I still can listen to that high pitch turbine-like sound that I wrote in another post, but have ruled out driveshaft failure, and have changed front & rear axel fluids, so the noise coming from these has been ruled out. Still need to check pulleys, AC & Alternator to rule failure in those bearings as well. I tell you this, so you may have the "noise scenario" surrounding this new situation.
I've thought of gas issues too, but have been filling up regularly with Premium gas at my neighborhood Costco; in fact, last fill up I threw in a can of Seafoam, as I try to do every 5K miles or so. BTW, after last oil change, replacement of front main oil seal, and front & rear axels fluids, I've felt the gas consumption to have been better; lately I have been travelling nearly 320 miles or so before each fill up, and MPGs have stayed above 14... seems to be a good sign in that departament! ;-]#
This weekend I'm planning on checking spark plugs "visual conditions", and wires, to try and rule out something disconnected, etc... but I guess this would throw a missfire code if disconnected or faulty.
Any pointers as to where to look to solve this situation, ahead of the weekend, would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance! ;-]#
Since some days ago I've been feeling my 2002 DISCOVERY SII SE with nearly 162K miles "sputtering" a bit or just "jumpy". Initially it started when pressing the pedal to accelarate trying to overpass another vehicle, but just very mildly; now I've been feeling it when travelling in the 70s MPH, but have also felt it above 30s, again, very mildly, but you can feel it.
Only codes showing are the ones from "Three Amigos" (1520 if I recall well), and 0420, Bank 2 Converter not working properly; these two have been present for a very very long time, the latter comes and goes, so these are nothing new. No other warning light or signals are being shown.
I still can listen to that high pitch turbine-like sound that I wrote in another post, but have ruled out driveshaft failure, and have changed front & rear axel fluids, so the noise coming from these has been ruled out. Still need to check pulleys, AC & Alternator to rule failure in those bearings as well. I tell you this, so you may have the "noise scenario" surrounding this new situation.
I've thought of gas issues too, but have been filling up regularly with Premium gas at my neighborhood Costco; in fact, last fill up I threw in a can of Seafoam, as I try to do every 5K miles or so. BTW, after last oil change, replacement of front main oil seal, and front & rear axels fluids, I've felt the gas consumption to have been better; lately I have been travelling nearly 320 miles or so before each fill up, and MPGs have stayed above 14... seems to be a good sign in that departament! ;-]#
This weekend I'm planning on checking spark plugs "visual conditions", and wires, to try and rule out something disconnected, etc... but I guess this would throw a missfire code if disconnected or faulty.
Any pointers as to where to look to solve this situation, ahead of the weekend, would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance! ;-]#
#1) a misfire can be present without a fault code. It wasn't until I began removing the spark plug wires 1 day & the spark plug boot end separated from the wire; I had originally began the diagnosis and replacement of other items & stumbled onto the wire as I had no codes. The most noticeable effect was a hesitation at the top of third gear and the occasional bucking in 4th. Replaced the 1 wire & problem solved although I fully updated all plugs/wires a few weeks later. The underhood heat & high engine/exhaust temp will eventually cause some destruction here & there espc' with the HT leads. Replace the wires. In my case, I found the problems similar to yours as intermittent then progressively worsening & showing further negative affects.
#2) I also resolved the turbine noise recently. Truck sat idle for over a month while I worked on it and all kinds of bearing & seals failed; I replaced everything that turned on front of the engine 1-2 at a time & it ended up being the passenger side idler pulley bearing underneath the tensioner assembly that was making the most noise. It was the last on the list because I couldn't tell anything was wrong with it while inspecting; other pulleys were far more suspicious in my perception. I bought most of the bearings at a retailer down the street from work for $8-$10 (quality units) and spent 1-hour here & there replacing them rather than spending a whole lot more money on the complete replacement pulleys, plus it gave me something to do in the evenings. The AC clutch bearing was bought @ AutoZone and the actual tensioner pulley I did replace as a whole with a steel unit from Oreillys Auto as I dropped the plastic 1 resulting in a very large chip so I'm better-off with that mishap. The power steering pump also has a bearing @ output shaft for pulley which too, can begin to seize up & make noise which won't affect operation of the pump & actual steering but the most unlikely culprit & very bottom of that list of possible faulty bearings.
Last edited by chubbs878; 03-21-2017 at 11:45 PM.
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adolfojbonilla (03-22-2017)
#13
03-22-2017, 08:14 AM
I can address a couple of your questions & concerns from personal experience.
#1) a misfire can be present without a fault code. It wasn't until I began removing the spark plug wires 1 day & the spark plug boot end separated from the wire; I had originally began the diagnosis and replacement of other items & stumbled onto the wire as I had no codes. The most noticeable effect was a hesitation at the top of third gear and the occasional bucking in 4th. Replaced the 1 wire & problem solved although I fully updated all plugs/wires a few weeks later. The underhood heat & high engine/exhaust temp will eventually cause some destruction here & there espc' with the HT leads. Replace the wires. In my case, I found the problems similar to yours as intermittent then progressively worsening & showing further negative affects.
#2) I also resolved the turbine noise recently. Truck sat idle for over a month while I worked on it and all kinds of bearing & seals failed; I replaced everything that turned on front of the engine 1-2 at a time & it ended up being the passenger side idler pulley bearing underneath the tensioner assembly that was making the most noise. It was the last on the list because I couldn't tell anything was wrong with it while inspecting; other pulleys were far more suspicious in my perception. I bought most of the bearings at a retailer down the street from work for $8-$10 (quality units) and spent 1-hour here & there replacing them rather than spending a whole lot more money on the complete replacement pulleys, plus it gave me something to do in the evenings. The AC clutch bearing was bought @ AutoZone and the actual tensioner pulley I did replace as a whole with a steel unit from Oreillys Auto as I dropped the plastic 1 resulting in a very large chip so I'm better-off with that mishap. The power steering pump also has a bearing @ output shaft for pulley which too, can begin to seize up & make noise which won't affect operation of the pump & actual steering but the most unlikely culprit & very bottom of that list of possible faulty bearings.
#1) a misfire can be present without a fault code. It wasn't until I began removing the spark plug wires 1 day & the spark plug boot end separated from the wire; I had originally began the diagnosis and replacement of other items & stumbled onto the wire as I had no codes. The most noticeable effect was a hesitation at the top of third gear and the occasional bucking in 4th. Replaced the 1 wire & problem solved although I fully updated all plugs/wires a few weeks later. The underhood heat & high engine/exhaust temp will eventually cause some destruction here & there espc' with the HT leads. Replace the wires. In my case, I found the problems similar to yours as intermittent then progressively worsening & showing further negative affects.
#2) I also resolved the turbine noise recently. Truck sat idle for over a month while I worked on it and all kinds of bearing & seals failed; I replaced everything that turned on front of the engine 1-2 at a time & it ended up being the passenger side idler pulley bearing underneath the tensioner assembly that was making the most noise. It was the last on the list because I couldn't tell anything was wrong with it while inspecting; other pulleys were far more suspicious in my perception. I bought most of the bearings at a retailer down the street from work for $8-$10 (quality units) and spent 1-hour here & there replacing them rather than spending a whole lot more money on the complete replacement pulleys, plus it gave me something to do in the evenings. The AC clutch bearing was bought @ AutoZone and the actual tensioner pulley I did replace as a whole with a steel unit from Oreillys Auto as I dropped the plastic 1 resulting in a very large chip so I'm better-off with that mishap. The power steering pump also has a bearing @ output shaft for pulley which too, can begin to seize up & make noise which won't affect operation of the pump & actual steering but the most unlikely culprit & very bottom of that list of possible faulty bearings.
...the fault sure feels like a plug and wire issue -at least that's what I want to believe- of the five plugs and wires I checked, none seem to be faulty at a glance -didn't check the coil-end of the wires then, and I also need to check the remaining three on the driver side as well to rule them out, visually at least. Is there a test, that you know of, which I could perform on them to look for faults, besides the obvious fault I'm experiencing?
Someone also suggested replacing the coil-packs, in their case it solved the issue, mine is old and beat up, would that be reason enough to replace it?
As per the bearings change, I don't know if it is a task I can do myself with my limited tools, I did go into a shop that works with Alternators and batteries, and told me he could look into the Alt to see if it is the problem, and if so he could fix it, along with checking the remaining bearings ...ballpark price was a bit under $200, if Alt repair was involved, and ig just replacing some bearings, that we would see the cost of each plus labor... it gave me a good impression, it may be the path I'll go regarding the "turbine-like" noise issue.
Thanks again!
#14
03-22-2017, 09:43 AM
...thanks CHUBBS878 for the input, your issues does seem to be along the lines of mine.
...the fault sure feels like a plug and wire issue -at least that's what I want to believe- of the five plugs and wires I checked, none seem to be faulty at a glance -didn't check the coil-end of the wires then, and I also need to check the remaining three on the driver side as well to rule them out, visually at least. Is there a test, that you know of, which I could perform on them to look for faults, besides the obvious fault I'm experiencing?
Someone also suggested replacing the coil-packs, in their case it solved the issue, mine is old and beat up, would that be reason enough to replace it?
As per the bearings change, I don't know if it is a task I can do myself with my limited tools, I did go into a shop that works with Alternators and batteries, and told me he could look into the Alt to see if it is the problem, and if so he could fix it, along with checking the remaining bearings ...ballpark price was a bit under $200, if Alt repair was involved, and ig just replacing some bearings, that we would see the cost of each plus labor... it gave me a good impression, it may be the path I'll go regarding the "turbine-like" noise issue.
Thanks again!
...the fault sure feels like a plug and wire issue -at least that's what I want to believe- of the five plugs and wires I checked, none seem to be faulty at a glance -didn't check the coil-end of the wires then, and I also need to check the remaining three on the driver side as well to rule them out, visually at least. Is there a test, that you know of, which I could perform on them to look for faults, besides the obvious fault I'm experiencing?
Someone also suggested replacing the coil-packs, in their case it solved the issue, mine is old and beat up, would that be reason enough to replace it?
As per the bearings change, I don't know if it is a task I can do myself with my limited tools, I did go into a shop that works with Alternators and batteries, and told me he could look into the Alt to see if it is the problem, and if so he could fix it, along with checking the remaining bearings ...ballpark price was a bit under $200, if Alt repair was involved, and ig just replacing some bearings, that we would see the cost of each plus labor... it gave me a good impression, it may be the path I'll go regarding the "turbine-like" noise issue.
Thanks again!
nah man, don't pay that guy $200 to replace your bearings. if the alternator is still putting out voltage within spec, you can do the bearings pretty easily. I didn't look this thread over because I'm super busy but this is just an example of all the info floating around on the 'net. I did a search on this site and had this writeup in 2 seconds.
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...ssembly-51103/
there are write-ups on pulley bearing replacements, too. I noted several of them on a PS pump thread I have going but they are all single-row, double seal like 6203, 6302, 6304. I replaced all of them with nothing more than a 2-pound hammer, assortment of pipes & large sockets to knock the old bearings out, and the factory bottle jack to press the new units in.
if you Google "spark plug wire tester" you will find all of the info you will ever need on how to do that.
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adolfojbonilla (03-22-2017)
#15
03-22-2017, 10:00 AM
TReK
I see that your situation did not improve much. You still having some ignition problems. Replace the coil packs to lessen the chances of misfire you are having. Do a full tune up including air filters.
The turbine noise you are having might be from alternator or compressor. A 150 amp alternator upgrade NEW will cost $136.00. Had mine replace not too long ago. Pulleys are more likely squeaks not turbine noise. You can touble shoot by lubricating one each time and hear if it lessens the noise but usually comes back fast. If you plan to replace bearings, follow Chubbs information since he got info how to do it.
Jerking from drive to reverse could be rotoflex, transmission filter and fluid change or your driveshaft bearing disintegrated.
Gerry
The turbine noise you are having might be from alternator or compressor. A 150 amp alternator upgrade NEW will cost $136.00. Had mine replace not too long ago. Pulleys are more likely squeaks not turbine noise. You can touble shoot by lubricating one each time and hear if it lessens the noise but usually comes back fast. If you plan to replace bearings, follow Chubbs information since he got info how to do it.
Jerking from drive to reverse could be rotoflex, transmission filter and fluid change or your driveshaft bearing disintegrated.
Gerry
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adolfojbonilla (03-22-2017)
#16
03-22-2017, 08:47 PM
Thank you all for the feedback, but new info has become available.
Before driving home after getting off from work, I started the truck and the BATTERY INDICATOR stayed lit for much longer than it usually does -which is on/off almost immediately; it later went off and never back on, not even flickered during the drive home.
Also, while I stood there with car running idle for a while before driving off, it startled more than usual, it wasn't bad at all, but it trembled quite a lot, after it warmed up I drove off.
As I was driving up the ramp to merge onto the highway, the SES light started to blink many times until it stayed solid, all this while I was feeling the truck startling and trying to maintain speed, but after it went solid, it calmed down a bit and driving was usual as these past days, with its regular hesitation, jumpiness and startling.
I checked the codes that triggered the SES light, and now 0308 (Cyl 8 misfiring) appears under "LOGGED FAULTS", as well as under "PENDING FAULTS", along with 0300 (multiple cylinders misfiring), and 0420, but this one has been coming on and off fro quite some time.
The misfiring codes appear just today, right during that event for sure, since I've been checking my OBD regularly and it didn't show, not even as a "PENDING".
Funny thing is that Cyl 8 plug is one that I checked last weekend and the plug and wiring looked OK to the naked eye, maybe the dirtiest of of all 5, but didn't look off; also checked 6, 4, 2 and 1; I'm attaching pics of those plugs for you to see how they look.
I did not check the plugs on the "COIL-PACK" end, maybe the fault is there, or elsewhere. Might as well just replace all plugs and wires, and the COIL-PACK as well, is old, rusty and pretty well beaten.
In addition, for some reason I feel the truck to be more faulty in the afternoons, when driving back home; in the morning it isn't as bad.
Good thing is that I already had plans to change the oil this weekend, might as well add the above.
After that, I'll take care of the bearings situation, and finally shut the turbine noise off.
Any other input would be appreciated, thank you all.
Before driving home after getting off from work, I started the truck and the BATTERY INDICATOR stayed lit for much longer than it usually does -which is on/off almost immediately; it later went off and never back on, not even flickered during the drive home.
Also, while I stood there with car running idle for a while before driving off, it startled more than usual, it wasn't bad at all, but it trembled quite a lot, after it warmed up I drove off.
As I was driving up the ramp to merge onto the highway, the SES light started to blink many times until it stayed solid, all this while I was feeling the truck startling and trying to maintain speed, but after it went solid, it calmed down a bit and driving was usual as these past days, with its regular hesitation, jumpiness and startling.
I checked the codes that triggered the SES light, and now 0308 (Cyl 8 misfiring) appears under "LOGGED FAULTS", as well as under "PENDING FAULTS", along with 0300 (multiple cylinders misfiring), and 0420, but this one has been coming on and off fro quite some time.
The misfiring codes appear just today, right during that event for sure, since I've been checking my OBD regularly and it didn't show, not even as a "PENDING".
Funny thing is that Cyl 8 plug is one that I checked last weekend and the plug and wiring looked OK to the naked eye, maybe the dirtiest of of all 5, but didn't look off; also checked 6, 4, 2 and 1; I'm attaching pics of those plugs for you to see how they look.
I did not check the plugs on the "COIL-PACK" end, maybe the fault is there, or elsewhere. Might as well just replace all plugs and wires, and the COIL-PACK as well, is old, rusty and pretty well beaten.
In addition, for some reason I feel the truck to be more faulty in the afternoons, when driving back home; in the morning it isn't as bad.
Good thing is that I already had plans to change the oil this weekend, might as well add the above.
After that, I'll take care of the bearings situation, and finally shut the turbine noise off.
Any other input would be appreciated, thank you all.
Last edited by adolfojbonilla; 03-23-2017 at 07:17 AM.
#17
03-22-2017, 08:51 PM
nah man, don't pay that guy $200 to replace your bearings. if the alternator is still putting out voltage within spec, you can do the bearings pretty easily. I didn't look this thread over because I'm super busy but this is just an example of all the info floating around on the 'net. I did a search on this site and had this writeup in 2 seconds.
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...ssembly-51103/
there are write-ups on pulley bearing replacements, too. I noted several of them on a PS pump thread I have going but they are all single-row, double seal like 6203, 6302, 6304. I replaced all of them with nothing more than a 2-pound hammer, assortment of pipes & large sockets to knock the old bearings out, and the factory bottle jack to press the new units in.
if you Google "spark plug wire tester" you will find all of the info you will ever need on how to do that.
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...ssembly-51103/
there are write-ups on pulley bearing replacements, too. I noted several of them on a PS pump thread I have going but they are all single-row, double seal like 6203, 6302, 6304. I replaced all of them with nothing more than a 2-pound hammer, assortment of pipes & large sockets to knock the old bearings out, and the factory bottle jack to press the new units in.
if you Google "spark plug wire tester" you will find all of the info you will ever need on how to do that.
...thanks for the words of encouragement CHUBBS878, I'll look into it, and truth be told, pricing isn't just to replace the bearings, it would be a full overhaul of the alternator -if necessary- along with any other front bearing that needs to be replaced.
Anyways, I'll take look at the info and take it from there.
Thanks again for the support! ;-]#
#18
03-22-2017, 08:59 PM
Well I got a rebuilt alternator off of eBay for about $138 with free shipping and puts out 150 amps instead of the regular 130 amp stock one. As for your plugs, that's part of your problem there in my opinion. The rovers like the classic champion plugs that aren't the +4 or any special style ones. A lot of guys have had issues with those plugs. As for wires I went with karlyn wires and the high temp plug boot protectors to help keep the heat off from the exhaust manifold. Snake oil in some opinions but for a few bucks I couldn't argue it.
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adolfojbonilla (03-22-2017)
#19
03-22-2017, 09:07 PM
I see that your situation did not improve much. You still having some ignition problems. Replace the coil packs to lessen the chances of misfire you are having. Do a full tune up including air filters.
The turbine noise you are having might be from alternator or compressor. A 150 amp alternator upgrade NEW will cost $136.00. Had mine replace not too long ago. Pulleys are more likely squeaks not turbine noise. You can touble shoot by lubricating one each time and hear if it lessens the noise but usually comes back fast. If you plan to replace bearings, follow Chubbs information since he got info how to do it.
Jerking from drive to reverse could be rotoflex, transmission filter and fluid change or your driveshaft bearing disintegrated.
Gerry
The turbine noise you are having might be from alternator or compressor. A 150 amp alternator upgrade NEW will cost $136.00. Had mine replace not too long ago. Pulleys are more likely squeaks not turbine noise. You can touble shoot by lubricating one each time and hear if it lessens the noise but usually comes back fast. If you plan to replace bearings, follow Chubbs information since he got info how to do it.
Jerking from drive to reverse could be rotoflex, transmission filter and fluid change or your driveshaft bearing disintegrated.
Gerry
As per the jerking, might actually be the rotoflex, it is cracked here and there, look at the pics I attached ...transmission fluid & filter was changed recently, and driveshaft were greased recently too and apparently showed no signs of failure.
Thanks again!
#20
03-22-2017, 09:14 PM
Well I got a rebuilt alternator off of eBay for about $138 with free shipping and puts out 150 amps instead of the regular 130 amp stock one. As for your plugs, that's part of your problem there in my opinion. The rovers like the classic champion plugs that aren't the +4 or any special style ones. A lot of guys have had issues with those plugs. As for wires I went with karlyn wires and the high temp plug boot protectors to help keep the heat off from the exhaust manifold. Snake oil in some opinions but for a few bucks I couldn't argue it.
Thanks for your feedback "LUCKYJAYB", and yes, I've been told about getting one from Ebay, something worth considering after confirming mine needs and overhaul or a replacement, but after I solve the issue with the plugs and wiring.
As per the plugs I have, if that is the reason, it just came up no more than a month or so ago, besides that, they have been working fine for 30K miles or so... might as well evaluate going back to NGK, which were the ones I had replaced with these BOSCH.
Again, thanks for your feedback!