A Project I've been kicking around for the Disco..
 

Ok,

I'm sure this topic will get some people a little spooled up, but I've been putting in a lot of research and engineering time into this, and wanted to get some more informed opinions.

I'm looking at installing a flex-fuel kit in my Landy. They are basically a software hack between the ECU and the injectors, and alter timing and fuel delivery.

This would be done to get the engine to burn E-85 fuel without throwing codes or going ape****.

I've got a few reasons for doing it, not really cost related. I messed around for 3 years or so with the veggie-oil/diesel stuff, and got it dialed in pretty well. My world has changed a lot since then, and I no longer have time to run a oil-distilling operation.

So here I what I need some input on.

1) hydroscopic tendencies of ETOH - I know this stuff absorbs water, however I live in one of the driest climates in the US, so that might be a lesser issue. Is anyone out there running any kind of supplemental fuel filtration with water-block? If so, what kind?

2) One thing I am hearing a lot, but haven't seen direct evidence of, is the "corrosive" nature of ETOH or methanol-based fuels. Specifically, WHAT they corrode. Seals? Hose internals? Piston rings? I know some of my hot-rod buddies swear by ethanol and methanol based fuels for their power, and haven't had any issues with corrosion.

3) Does anyone know what type of connector our injectors use? Are they Denso or Bosch? Anyone have a pic?

4) The software programs for Flex-fuel, etc are typically advancing timing by 0.5-1.5 degrees, depending on the engine, I believe due to the "octane" rating of E-85. (Octane is technically impossible to calc on ethanol). Do I need to upgrade plugs for this? Last rover I had ran like crap on the bosch +4's, but ran like silk on the cheap-o champion copper ones.

best,

- ATLDisco

Hi, interesting project. In motorsport we used EPROM many years ago to achieve similar goals, i.e. infinite fuel/air/advance-retard ratios through a custom ECU.

Some years ago I ran a methanol Ford BDA 1600 race engine but methanol has to be flushed out as if left standing as it is highly corrosive in engines and fuel systems, and, it is hygroscopic similarly to brake fluids but worse. Methanol attacks non ferrous metals alarmingly particularly magnesium and creates rust inside engines due to it's hygroscobic nature.

I cannot answer your specifics on fuel injectors as I used modified Ford injectors delivering via custom roller throttle bodies.

For years I ran NGK Iridium spark plugs, softer for starting and hard for running as the engine comp ratio was 12:1 with rpm peaking at 11K rev limited.

Unfortunately my BDA finally 'lunched' itself big time as it was an old engine concept and well over tuned.

methanol is apparently a different beast. I don't have access to much methanol fuel here where I live, apart from race-grade, which is about $6.50/gallon...

The E-85 blend found in the states is usually 70%-90% methanol, with the rest being gasoline, and varies some in quality.

Its pretty readily available where I live, and even more so in the midwestern united states, being derived mostly from corn or cellulose.

Anyhow, I'm going to keep digging, and make a mock-up fuel system as a backup to see what the cost would be if something did foul up.

Anyone else out there have anything to add? Trying to make a call here in the next few weeks.

- ATLDisco

To much brain power in this tread for me!

Like the 02 S4 Monster, I had one before I wimped for my present Honda sports bike. The S4 was manic and around town was a real headturner back then. :)

Yep the S4 is a fun bike. Mine has full laser GP exhaust, so you definitely know I'm in the neighborhood...that, and the duc clutch that sounds like a machine gun.

ATL,

I am not a scientist but I did some reading about ethanol not long ago after I found an ethanol station in McKinney, TX. My Titan is a flex fuel vehicle and I can tell you it ran like a scalded dog on straight ethanol! It also got horrible mileage.

I can snap a picture of the spare fuel injector if that helps. I can also snap a picture of the injector connector from a spare wiring harness.

I ready that ethanol eats rubber and plastic... and it does (which is why ethanol free gas is recommended for weedeaters), a flex fuel vehicles have metal substituted for rubber in the fuel delivery system. Ethanol is higher octane equivalent, and burns both faster and hotter. That's really all I remember.

I'll get a picture of the connector.

I hate it when people don't address the OP's query and suggest alternatives. I did address your query... and I wish we could legally put on a propane conversion kit here!!!! Haha.

Charlie, not sure about yours, by my Titan always gets horrible mileage!!!! But, 180k hard miles pulling and hauling more than it ever should, without any problems, then it can drink all it wants!

It certainly couldn't be cost related, unless your goal is to spend more. There isn't anywhere in the US that running pure diesel would cost more than petrol or E85.

As for your specific questions:
1. I always run them in diesels. Whether it's really needed or not, I've no idea, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. Racor makes nice fuel/water separators.

2. It is more corrosive, but I think vehicles for quite a number of years have been ok with at least some alcohol in the fuel. It's mostly the rubber parts that suffer. Typically the bigger issue is varnish on the internals from years of petrol use is cleaned off and clogs everything. A good filter like the Racor might mitigate that.

3. Don't know on the DII. If they are the same as the D1 they are Bosch (actually made by AMP)
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/catal...ev1f-4_600.jpg

4. Dunno, could probably experiment and see.

167,000 on mine and pulls like a mule. When I said it got terrible mileage on ethanol, I meant it was getting as bad as my Disco usually does on premium.

@antichrist - thank you for the help! I hear you on the racor filters, my diesels are filtered down to 2 microns. I've spent enough on injection systems to buy a couple more disco's....

Thinking something like this, inline with the supply feed of the fuel system: Racor Aquabloc Marine Gasoline Spin-On Type Filter Assemblies - 120RC02

Replacement filter are about $25, and easy to do. I have a similar, much larger setup on my F-350. I think it should catch most of the crud and varnish.

Is there any sense in filtering down to 2 microns, or is 10 sufficient?

@Charlie_V - yes, E85 has about 80% of the BTU's per gallon that gasoline has. However, I like that it's made, rather than extracted. I remember my grandfather, who came from a line of southern hillbillies from TN, KY and GA, talking about dumping a few gallons of "white lightning" in the car when he and his cousins would travel...

Also, E85 doesn't have quite the price volatility of gasoline. Yes, gas is stupid cheap right now, but that can change. Rapidly. Doing this now is my version of "buy low". You can get veggie oil setups now for about 60% of what they were selling for in the heyday of $5/gallon diesel...

Does anyone know offhand what the stock fuel pump puts out in terms of pressure? I might throw a fuel pressure gauge on there to keep an eye on how my filters are doing.

At the end of the day, if I have to upgrade fuel lines and pump, not that huge a deal.

FWIW the D1 inline fuel filter is 4 micron.

Last time I got a straight tank of e85 it was just under two bucks a gallon. Regular gas was about 3.40. Substantial savings. Marine gas with no ethanol? Forget about it.

I'm all ears.

And at the time propane wasn't very cheap, either. According to what I read on the Internet, propane kits are popular in Europe. And my first vehicle was a Chevy pickup that had a propane tank so huge I only had to fill it three times a year... so I'm oddly fascinated with it. But you're right about the price of the e85. Cheap and subsidized.

Propane is a good fuel for sure, I converted an F-150 I had once with a kit off ebay. Did OK, chinese electronics kinda suck though, and I sold the truck. Big drop in mileage, and some power lost, but for scooting around town, it was great. Dedicated propane motors tend to be higher compression, and a 351 is not.

After a bunch more research, and my inline therm mod, I'm going to slowly start putting E85 into the tank until the computer screams or the engine runs like crap, and then make the call on the kit. I've found multiple people who just run E85 in regular cars and it's fine. Most problems are with the O2 sensors, rather than anything else.

Will record fuel mileage, etc. Of course I'm expecting a drop, just not sure how much yet.

Conversion will cost about $550 in parts and a saturday of wrench-time.

I like the idea of domestic fuel. Always have. I also understand that it's not for everyone, but that's the beauty of choice, right?

Given the chance, I'll keep my money stateside, and out of wal-mart.

Keep us informed!

I'd love to use e85 or propane. I considered tracking down a propane kit online, but got distracted.

A buddy adapted his Mitsubishi Evo to run on e85, and he said it made even more power after conversion. It certainly was brutally fast.

Yeah, E85 and boost and tuning is a mean combo. You can really push the stuff hard and it won't knock.

On these old pig v-8's, it'll run fine, but nothing about the motor's design will capture much benefit, other than somewhat cooler burn, less soot, and reduced emissions.

I'm guessing here, but I think even as cheap as it is $2-2.25/gallon here, versus $2.95 for premium, that the costs will be a wash with the mileage drop.

Propane is a different beast, the biggest issue is safe storage. With a pickup, you can use 2-3 forklift tanks in the bed and be pretty safe. With a SUV or car, you're going to drop $1500+ for a new DOT tank, and $500 used on ebay, with need for re-cert soon. Not really worth it unless you drive 50K miles/year. The tank problem is further exacerbated with CNG or LNG. Big money to store them.

This experiment is basically to test some of the hippie-dippie theory I see online about running e85 in a non-converted car, and just how far I can push it. Will wait till my trip meter gets to 100 miles then top it up with E85 and start the journey.

Im hoping I crack this code, and when we are back to $4+/gallon I am well prepared.

In the interest of science, and chasing this rabbit hole down to the end, here are a few things I've gathered.

1) the most reliable conversion, measured by length and breadth of warranty and happy customer reviews is this guy: change2e85.com. I sent him an email, and got a prompt, thorough and professional response.

2) In the event that the disco's stock fuel system $**ts the bed, here is what I will be replacing everything with:

- pump (stock is 33-37psi):
- fuel filtration setup:
Lines and hoses will be either SS braided or traditional fuel lines with brass barbs and clamps. Screw the charcoal canister.

So all in all, not a terrible economic cost if I have to go full aftermarket.

3) I emailed a good friend of mine who is in the phD program at minnesota for chemical engineering. Per this nice lady, to get E85 to absorb enough moisture to cause an issue, you'd have to leave the gas cap open in a high-humidity environment with drastic day/night temp swings, half full for about 3 weeks.

4) the biggest issue with E85 in some parts of the country is lack of turnover. I typicall source my fuel from QuikTrip, as they have been great the one time I had a diesel-related issue. Covered it no questions asked. The local E85 is a large Chevron, but I am unsure as to fuel turnover, and time left sitting in ground tank.

More later. Got some LED lights to wire in to the truck while the SWMBO is out of town all weekend.

PS - these lights KICK A**. :

Well. Beautiful evening here in the desert, took the dogs out for a cruise in the Rover.

After 65 miles, stopped and put 4.74 gallons of E85 in the tank, which was filled previously with E10 premium from QuikTrip.

Drove home 10 miles or so, no SES at all. By my math, I had 10% ETOH before, now have 33.66% ETOH fuel.

internet legend says most engines built post 99 won't notice anything up to 50%.

Here's to seeing what's what. Does seem a shame to burn all that booze though...