Posers Driving Land Rovers
#11
08-10-2018, 02:21 PM
Primarily:
1) Limited numbers, 525 110 models, and a few thousand 90 models. They are literally numbered with plaques. They are simply rare, you do not see many.
Second:
2) representation in the media as the Land Rover. The one that farmers use, action heros use, soldiers use, explorers use, aid workers used, posh people do multi hundred thousand dollar builds of these. People might not even know exactly what it is but they know it is cool. Sure Discoverys are used, but definitely not NAS spec ones, and Defender was much more predominant.
3) Manual transmission (ignoring the few automatics they made for NAS defenders)
4) drive train is interchangeable with two other model lines (discovery 1989-99, and range rover since the 90 and 110 were created), parts availability, ease of service, simplicity of design
5) NAS Defenders have roll cages, which are objectively cool.
6) The mechanical reputation of Discovery 2, which despite the wealth of knowledge on the forum and some excellent workarounds, modifications, is what caused LR to change their naming scheme for our market, and people still think of LR as unreliable here.
1) Limited numbers, 525 110 models, and a few thousand 90 models. They are literally numbered with plaques. They are simply rare, you do not see many.
Second:
2) representation in the media as the Land Rover. The one that farmers use, action heros use, soldiers use, explorers use, aid workers used, posh people do multi hundred thousand dollar builds of these. People might not even know exactly what it is but they know it is cool. Sure Discoverys are used, but definitely not NAS spec ones, and Defender was much more predominant.
3) Manual transmission (ignoring the few automatics they made for NAS defenders)
4) drive train is interchangeable with two other model lines (discovery 1989-99, and range rover since the 90 and 110 were created), parts availability, ease of service, simplicity of design
5) NAS Defenders have roll cages, which are objectively cool.
6) The mechanical reputation of Discovery 2, which despite the wealth of knowledge on the forum and some excellent workarounds, modifications, is what caused LR to change their naming scheme for our market, and people still think of LR as unreliable here.
#12
08-10-2018, 06:43 PM
Super Moderator
I’ve got a 1 out of 150 02 Kalahari so those Defender #’s are weak in comparision. The D2 has already hit classic LR status as it was the last soild axle LR in the US market. Anything from 05 up does not have anything to do with the classic LR/British quirks, engine, driveline, or chassis. It’s a Ford/Jag & sorry it just doesn’t compare to anything LR brought to the US from 87-04.
The LR3/LR4/RRS is very capable off road, and I really like my 06 HSE LR3, but I love my D2’s!!!
I don’t think a LR from 87-04 is unreliable it just needs more TLC here and there vs say a Toyota or Honda. I myself find a vehicle that you don’t learn everything about it boring or one that you rarely open the hood to check stuff boring. I am a petrolhead and tweaking, modifying, and keeping an older British 4x4 on the road makes me proud. Texas is a very large state & I win $$$ all the time on long trips when I place a bet saying stuff like I bet 10.00 or a chocolate sunday we won’t see another D1/D2 on the road today....
Defenders are a dime a dozen in other countries like how Jeep’s are in the US. RRC/D1/D2’s are becoming more unique and rare daily. Good clean examples are like finding a broken needle in a haystack.
I went by the LR dealership in Houston, TX today just to stop in after so many years to maybe get a hat. I didn’t see a RRC, D1, D2, or even an LR3/LR4 in the entire place!! It was all new stuff. Sorry but it grossed me out. I left thinking damn if I drive up here in my Kalahari or 99 D2 they’d be clueless it was a LR!!!!
The LR3/LR4/RRS is very capable off road, and I really like my 06 HSE LR3, but I love my D2’s!!!
I don’t think a LR from 87-04 is unreliable it just needs more TLC here and there vs say a Toyota or Honda. I myself find a vehicle that you don’t learn everything about it boring or one that you rarely open the hood to check stuff boring. I am a petrolhead and tweaking, modifying, and keeping an older British 4x4 on the road makes me proud. Texas is a very large state & I win $$$ all the time on long trips when I place a bet saying stuff like I bet 10.00 or a chocolate sunday we won’t see another D1/D2 on the road today....
Defenders are a dime a dozen in other countries like how Jeep’s are in the US. RRC/D1/D2’s are becoming more unique and rare daily. Good clean examples are like finding a broken needle in a haystack.
I went by the LR dealership in Houston, TX today just to stop in after so many years to maybe get a hat. I didn’t see a RRC, D1, D2, or even an LR3/LR4 in the entire place!! It was all new stuff. Sorry but it grossed me out. I left thinking damn if I drive up here in my Kalahari or 99 D2 they’d be clueless it was a LR!!!!
#13
08-10-2018, 07:16 PM
#14
08-10-2018, 07:40 PM
To preface, this is not really an "I hate Discovery 2s!!!!" sort of thing. I actually think they are cool, and very nice vehicles, and certain models like G4's or perhaps yes Kalahari will be worth a good amount someday, but I do not ever see them getting as expensive as (admittedly inflated) NAS Defender pricing. I also am well aware that our market was cheated out of the best options of all Land Rover models to date, and my ideal Discovery 2 would not be a NAS one at all, probably the basest spec possible with a diesel and a manual trans.
One is a vehicle type and one is a (forgive me here) trim package of a widely available separate vehicle? Not seeing the comparison at all.
Odd that it is somehow classic just because of that?
They were still producing Defender until 2015. With modern engines and drivetrains substantially better than Discovery 2 (especially a North American Model, IE manual diesels in base spec in any configuration you could think of).
.... Try 200Tdi, 300Tdi, Td5 (all Land Rover designed/built motors, not Buick 215 1960s tech), Even Ford TDci plants fitted to later Defenders are better. 180 horsepower for a 4 liter V8 is dated... A jag 4.4 makes 300hp. The V8 is cool, but any of the diesels post 1990 destroys it in service life and efficiency, and the Td5 Discovery 2 is tunable to beyond 4.0L V8 horsepower.
It is when it is common to get 3 amigos, slipped liners, bad thermostats, etc. Ok it is excusable for say a weekend car or a daily if you are always on top of everything and can throw money or time at a problem, but then look at African bush vehicles, and you realize this is inexcusable.
I find that even military, civil service, private work vehicles in other markets are quite well maintained. What makes one vehicle good and another less so is they are robust enough to be neglected for a certain amount without blowing a head gasket... A farm defender could be left in a field and just given oil changes and driven a bit and if I had to explain to a farmer what the 3 amigos was and why he needs a 180 degree T stat and how he should pull his motor to get the liners done for his 'classic', he'd look at me like I was insane. The farmers, mechanics, soldiers are proud of their vehicles because they do important things, not just that they could do a few mods to make it slightly more reliable.... they already are reliable.
Don't see how this relates to your North American Specific value argument. They are common because they are simple to use, abuse, maintain, and do work with. They last a long time. None of these attributes really apply to a NAS Discovery 2. MAYBE a ROW Discovery 2 with a 5 speed and a Td5, but it would be a commercial version and those still do less than a Defender. Additionally, the Jeep parallel is an odd one because to my knowledge zero jeeps are used today as working vehicles, they are almost exclusively for private enjoyment like offroading, travel, etc. Defender, Toyota Land Cruiser 70 instead are common to see as tow trucks, rescue vehicles, fire trucks, military, logging, shop cars, electrical service vehicles, ambulances, etc. etc. Jeeps while cool just are not used for working purposes (J8 platform being a very small exception).
Your car would still say Land Rover on the hood and have LR badges. I am sure someone at any dealer has a knowledge of past and present models. Brought a 110 to a dealer to collect an old part they found in storage, and people knew what it was. Could be the dealer.
One is a vehicle type and one is a (forgive me here) trim package of a widely available separate vehicle? Not seeing the comparison at all.
I went by the LR dealership in Houston, TX today just to stop in after so many years to maybe get a hat. I didn’t see a RRC, D1, D2, or even an LR3/LR4 in the entire place!! It was all new stuff. Sorry but it grossed me out. I left thinking damn if I drive up here in my Kalahari or 99 D2 they’d be clueless it was a LR!!!!
#15
08-10-2018, 07:43 PM
Super Moderator
Things break and some folks give up. If we base Rover ownership on your financial status then a lot of us here shouldn't have them. Lord knows I shouldn't own 4 of them, what I make is public record and it is somewhat depressing lol.
I will say this, folks sending them to scrap is what keeps some folks Rovers rovering
I will say this, folks sending them to scrap is what keeps some folks Rovers rovering
#16
08-10-2018, 08:28 PM
Super Moderator
DavC funny people acted the same with the RRC years ago & now look.
Doesn’t matter if you consider the Kalahari a trim level vs a model. The fact remains only 150 were “ever” made in yellow. The Safarigard rockers extremely rare, the grill, the seats, and the wheels where limited production as well, sorry it’s more rare than the # of D90’s brought to America.
Also if you can’t fix/diagnose the silly and not that big of deal 3 Amigo’s then a LR probably isn’t for you. I’ve pulled several D2’s from certain death with little more than proper repairs and TLC. My 99 sat for 6-8 months and cranked up like it was just parked the day before. My 500.00 wonder was surrounded by 4ft grass and had been sitting nearly 2 years in direct TX sunlight. Runs & drives perfectly now. Friends 03 had a driveshaft kill the transmission, TC, exhaust, and the fuel lines. After replacing the broken parts, and a CPS it fired right up. An abandoned D2 can be fixed and brought back from the dead if you know what you’re doing.
Btw on the Jeep & commercial thing = US Postal Service & some are still in use today.
I’ve owned to many vehicles that at the time were nothing special & now they’re all known as collectible classics. From my 2DR 87 Dodge Raider/Montero, my 97 RR 4.6L Vitesse in AA yellow (totally unique & rare parts only to that model of 150 yellow for 97), and my 05 Jeep Wrangler LJ. Nothing special at the time & now they’re sought after 4x4’s.
A D90 is great, but sorry a D90 rides like crap vs a D2, the HVAC was a joke, they leaked water when it rained, takes 3 door slams to shut the door, hinge/body issues, and they are far from perfect. In the US market they are collectibles by #’s alone. If I wanted a D90/110 I’d get an older one, gut the diesel, drop in an LS, get a puma dash with a somewhat decent HVAC setup, and go from there for way less than a NAS 94-97 D90.
I love LR’s from 1948 to 2009 would be my range, but I personally specialize in RRC/D1/D2’s and of coarse I do all the work on my 06 LR3. My passion has always been with the poor man’s RR AKA the Discovery. Ever since it’s US 1994 debut with the La Ruta Maya Adventure, and all the Camel Trophies that followed. I love it’s classic roof line, it’s old english V8 (hate it all you like it’s still got a special place in british history as it was used in just about anything British). The D2 was the final revison of the poor man’s RR, and yes the solid axles do make it unique vs what is offered today. Only Jeep is still sporting Solid axles as far as I know.
You don’t honestly need to run the 180F thermostat. 2008-2010 is around the time people found out you “could” run one to help lower temps, but before that we all had 195F thermostats and somehow some of us are still driving on the original engine..... Like the facebook guy says and I quote you don’t have to run a 180F thermostat “but it helps.....”
The 3 Amigo’s are all over Forums these days and it’s honestly silly to me. People have dragged such a simple problem into the ground. Perform Option B, maybe repair some ABS sensor connectors, or replace them and be done with it! I own 4 D2’s that run and drive and my dash DOES NOT look like a RRC or a Christmas tree. It’s not rocket science and people are WAY overthinking it. It does however sometimes work in your favor when the seller drops the price thinking it's a $$$$ repair when all you need is a 3.00 wiring harness from Oreilly's and 30min of your time to fix (unless it's sensor related, however still cheap).
I have seen a serious increase in people wanting clean D2’s (everyone that isn’t up to speed on D2’s from 99-04 always go for the 04’s for the newer look & CDL). Sadly the ones people are paying more & more for are getting worse for the $$$$$
Dealer wise it was a HUGE disappointment. When I asked if they had any hats they pointed me to a Golf visor.... They also had way more Jaguar stuff vs “LR Gear” under that sign they had a coffee cup, and a LR pen... oh and a key ring. Not one ball cap, LR Shirt or anything unique. I’m sure it was the Dealership, but I’ll stick to Ebay for LR Gear lol.
They have a rather large glass window looking into the service bay & it was all Disco Sports, RR, and Jag’s. They “might” have had an oldtimer there, but most old LR Master Tech’s I know have all gone independent. Not arguing at all, but the D1/D2 will be classic 4x4's.
Doesn’t matter if you consider the Kalahari a trim level vs a model. The fact remains only 150 were “ever” made in yellow. The Safarigard rockers extremely rare, the grill, the seats, and the wheels where limited production as well, sorry it’s more rare than the # of D90’s brought to America.
Also if you can’t fix/diagnose the silly and not that big of deal 3 Amigo’s then a LR probably isn’t for you. I’ve pulled several D2’s from certain death with little more than proper repairs and TLC. My 99 sat for 6-8 months and cranked up like it was just parked the day before. My 500.00 wonder was surrounded by 4ft grass and had been sitting nearly 2 years in direct TX sunlight. Runs & drives perfectly now. Friends 03 had a driveshaft kill the transmission, TC, exhaust, and the fuel lines. After replacing the broken parts, and a CPS it fired right up. An abandoned D2 can be fixed and brought back from the dead if you know what you’re doing.
Btw on the Jeep & commercial thing = US Postal Service & some are still in use today.
I’ve owned to many vehicles that at the time were nothing special & now they’re all known as collectible classics. From my 2DR 87 Dodge Raider/Montero, my 97 RR 4.6L Vitesse in AA yellow (totally unique & rare parts only to that model of 150 yellow for 97), and my 05 Jeep Wrangler LJ. Nothing special at the time & now they’re sought after 4x4’s.
A D90 is great, but sorry a D90 rides like crap vs a D2, the HVAC was a joke, they leaked water when it rained, takes 3 door slams to shut the door, hinge/body issues, and they are far from perfect. In the US market they are collectibles by #’s alone. If I wanted a D90/110 I’d get an older one, gut the diesel, drop in an LS, get a puma dash with a somewhat decent HVAC setup, and go from there for way less than a NAS 94-97 D90.
I love LR’s from 1948 to 2009 would be my range, but I personally specialize in RRC/D1/D2’s and of coarse I do all the work on my 06 LR3. My passion has always been with the poor man’s RR AKA the Discovery. Ever since it’s US 1994 debut with the La Ruta Maya Adventure, and all the Camel Trophies that followed. I love it’s classic roof line, it’s old english V8 (hate it all you like it’s still got a special place in british history as it was used in just about anything British). The D2 was the final revison of the poor man’s RR, and yes the solid axles do make it unique vs what is offered today. Only Jeep is still sporting Solid axles as far as I know.
You don’t honestly need to run the 180F thermostat. 2008-2010 is around the time people found out you “could” run one to help lower temps, but before that we all had 195F thermostats and somehow some of us are still driving on the original engine..... Like the facebook guy says and I quote you don’t have to run a 180F thermostat “but it helps.....”
The 3 Amigo’s are all over Forums these days and it’s honestly silly to me. People have dragged such a simple problem into the ground. Perform Option B, maybe repair some ABS sensor connectors, or replace them and be done with it! I own 4 D2’s that run and drive and my dash DOES NOT look like a RRC or a Christmas tree. It’s not rocket science and people are WAY overthinking it. It does however sometimes work in your favor when the seller drops the price thinking it's a $$$$ repair when all you need is a 3.00 wiring harness from Oreilly's and 30min of your time to fix (unless it's sensor related, however still cheap).
I have seen a serious increase in people wanting clean D2’s (everyone that isn’t up to speed on D2’s from 99-04 always go for the 04’s for the newer look & CDL). Sadly the ones people are paying more & more for are getting worse for the $$$$$
Dealer wise it was a HUGE disappointment. When I asked if they had any hats they pointed me to a Golf visor.... They also had way more Jaguar stuff vs “LR Gear” under that sign they had a coffee cup, and a LR pen... oh and a key ring. Not one ball cap, LR Shirt or anything unique. I’m sure it was the Dealership, but I’ll stick to Ebay for LR Gear lol.
They have a rather large glass window looking into the service bay & it was all Disco Sports, RR, and Jag’s. They “might” have had an oldtimer there, but most old LR Master Tech’s I know have all gone independent. Not arguing at all, but the D1/D2 will be classic 4x4's.
Last edited by Best4x4; 08-10-2018 at 08:59 PM.
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#17
08-10-2018, 08:39 PM
#18
08-10-2018, 08:43 PM
Super Moderator
#19
08-10-2018, 09:14 PM
To preface, this is not really an "I hate Discovery 2s!!!!" sort of thing. I actually think they are cool, and very nice vehicles, and certain models like G4's or perhaps yes Kalahari will be worth a good amount someday, but I do not ever see them getting as expensive as (admittedly inflated) NAS Defender pricing. I also am well aware that our market was cheated out of the best options of all Land Rover models to date, and my ideal Discovery 2 would not be a NAS one at all, probably the basest spec possible with a diesel and a manual trans.
One is a vehicle type and one is a (forgive me here) trim package of a widely available separate vehicle? Not seeing the comparison at all.
Odd that it is somehow classic just because of that?
They were still producing Defender until 2015. With modern engines and drivetrains substantially better than Discovery 2 (especially a North American Model, IE manual diesels in base spec in any configuration you could think of).
.... Try 200Tdi, 300Tdi, Td5 (all Land Rover designed/built motors, not Buick 215 1960s tech), Even Ford TDci plants fitted to later Defenders are better. 180 horsepower for a 4 liter V8 is dated... A jag 4.4 makes 300hp. The V8 is cool, but any of the diesels post 1990 destroys it in service life and efficiency, and the Td5 Discovery 2 is tunable to beyond 4.0L V8 horsepower.
It is when it is common to get 3 amigos, slipped liners, bad thermostats, etc. Ok it is excusable for say a weekend car or a daily if you are always on top of everything and can throw money or time at a problem, but then look at African bush vehicles, and you realize this is inexcusable.
I find that even military, civil service, private work vehicles in other markets are quite well maintained. What makes one vehicle good and another less so is they are robust enough to be neglected for a certain amount without blowing a head gasket... A farm defender could be left in a field and just given oil changes and driven a bit and if I had to explain to a farmer what the 3 amigos was and why he needs a 180 degree T stat and how he should pull his motor to get the liners done for his 'classic', he'd look at me like I was insane. The farmers, mechanics, soldiers are proud of their vehicles because they do important things, not just that they could do a few mods to make it slightly more reliable.... they already are reliable.
Don't see how this relates to your North American Specific value argument. They are common because they are simple to use, abuse, maintain, and do work with. They last a long time. None of these attributes really apply to a NAS Discovery 2. MAYBE a ROW Discovery 2 with a 5 speed and a Td5, but it would be a commercial version and those still do less than a Defender. Additionally, the Jeep parallel is an odd one because to my knowledge zero jeeps are used today as working vehicles, they are almost exclusively for private enjoyment like offroading, travel, etc. Defender, Toyota Land Cruiser 70 instead are common to see as tow trucks, rescue vehicles, fire trucks, military, logging, shop cars, electrical service vehicles, ambulances, etc. etc. Jeeps while cool just are not used for working purposes (J8 platform being a very small exception).
Your car would still say Land Rover on the hood and have LR badges. I am sure someone at any dealer has a knowledge of past and present models. Brought a 110 to a dealer to collect an old part they found in storage, and people knew what it was. Could be the dealer.
One is a vehicle type and one is a (forgive me here) trim package of a widely available separate vehicle? Not seeing the comparison at all.
Odd that it is somehow classic just because of that?
They were still producing Defender until 2015. With modern engines and drivetrains substantially better than Discovery 2 (especially a North American Model, IE manual diesels in base spec in any configuration you could think of).
.... Try 200Tdi, 300Tdi, Td5 (all Land Rover designed/built motors, not Buick 215 1960s tech), Even Ford TDci plants fitted to later Defenders are better. 180 horsepower for a 4 liter V8 is dated... A jag 4.4 makes 300hp. The V8 is cool, but any of the diesels post 1990 destroys it in service life and efficiency, and the Td5 Discovery 2 is tunable to beyond 4.0L V8 horsepower.
It is when it is common to get 3 amigos, slipped liners, bad thermostats, etc. Ok it is excusable for say a weekend car or a daily if you are always on top of everything and can throw money or time at a problem, but then look at African bush vehicles, and you realize this is inexcusable.
I find that even military, civil service, private work vehicles in other markets are quite well maintained. What makes one vehicle good and another less so is they are robust enough to be neglected for a certain amount without blowing a head gasket... A farm defender could be left in a field and just given oil changes and driven a bit and if I had to explain to a farmer what the 3 amigos was and why he needs a 180 degree T stat and how he should pull his motor to get the liners done for his 'classic', he'd look at me like I was insane. The farmers, mechanics, soldiers are proud of their vehicles because they do important things, not just that they could do a few mods to make it slightly more reliable.... they already are reliable.
Don't see how this relates to your North American Specific value argument. They are common because they are simple to use, abuse, maintain, and do work with. They last a long time. None of these attributes really apply to a NAS Discovery 2. MAYBE a ROW Discovery 2 with a 5 speed and a Td5, but it would be a commercial version and those still do less than a Defender. Additionally, the Jeep parallel is an odd one because to my knowledge zero jeeps are used today as working vehicles, they are almost exclusively for private enjoyment like offroading, travel, etc. Defender, Toyota Land Cruiser 70 instead are common to see as tow trucks, rescue vehicles, fire trucks, military, logging, shop cars, electrical service vehicles, ambulances, etc. etc. Jeeps while cool just are not used for working purposes (J8 platform being a very small exception).
Your car would still say Land Rover on the hood and have LR badges. I am sure someone at any dealer has a knowledge of past and present models. Brought a 110 to a dealer to collect an old part they found in storage, and people knew what it was. Could be the dealer.
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OffroadFrance (08-11-2018)
