Possibly a downward spiral .......... who knows
#31
11-21-2016, 07:45 PM
When will the race card get old? When will the gender card get old? When will people stop playing the victim card? If anyone thinks life in the US is so bad then your welcome to seek "asylum" in the Afghanistanl or Iraq.
Racism is not illegal in the US because its a "belief" held by "some" that their race is superior to other races. Is racism a problem? No because its not an action and it does not prevent anyone else from pursuing their own happiness. Racism exist within every race of people.
Hate crimes are illegal in the US because they are physical "actions" usually destructive against other people.
Diversity is a twl way street- maybe a 4 way street nowadays. Diversity of races, gender, sexuality, religion but also diversity of opinions, views, beliefs and political faction. You cant preech diversity then turn around and throw rocks at your neighbor because he/she has opposing preference or views; that makes you an hypocrite.
People rioting in the streets, beating the **** out of pro Trump voters, breaking into houses and businesses, vandalizing civilian vehicles, burning police cars, burning the US flag and holding up a Mexican flag, yelling out "racist", "Facist" etc just because Trump won the election is bull****. I recall a time when the first black president won the election here in the states. Sure Obama recieved death threats (just as Trump does now) but I dont recall mass rioting of KKK and **** SS officers. I dont recall any destructive **** going down across the nation. I also dont believe that all those white people who voted for Obama suddenly turned racist when voting for Trump.
I think of all races, genders and sexualities have it pretty dam good here in the US. We have federal laws and agencies dedicated to the protection of rights for minorities and women. Most every employer is an "equal opportunity" employer. People of all races and genders are employed as government officials. We have had a blacl president and came near close to having a female president. Few people in the nation are being kicked off busses because of their skin color or gender. Few people are being fired or turned away from a new job or university or appartment due to skin color or gender. Few people in nation are being thrown into oven alive. Few people in this country are being thrown into concentration camps. But the sudden everyone is butthurt, easily offended. Everything is racist. Everything is sexist. Everything is homophobic. All the sudden minorities and women are being oppressed and hunted down by white SS cops.
Reality check:
Counter progression
Black lives matter is counter productive because the movement focuses on one specific race rather than all lives being equally important.
Feminism is can be counter productive when some groups focus on the well being and privileges of one specific gender rather than the equality of all genders.
Censorship and taking awat freedom of speech is counter productive because everyone is "entitled" to expressing their views. The more you try to censor the people the more they will express discontent for the system that binds them.
I believe the only way to move forward is for everyone to come to terms with and accept that ever single person is an individual in their own right. Be it race, gender, sexuality, religion, political faction, belives and opinions, favorite sports team, choice of clothing styles, preferred vehicle brand etc. No American should ever fear losing his/her job because they expressed themselves on facebook in a manner that offends another person/s.
Racism is not illegal in the US because its a "belief" held by "some" that their race is superior to other races. Is racism a problem? No because its not an action and it does not prevent anyone else from pursuing their own happiness. Racism exist within every race of people.
Hate crimes are illegal in the US because they are physical "actions" usually destructive against other people.
Diversity is a twl way street- maybe a 4 way street nowadays. Diversity of races, gender, sexuality, religion but also diversity of opinions, views, beliefs and political faction. You cant preech diversity then turn around and throw rocks at your neighbor because he/she has opposing preference or views; that makes you an hypocrite.
People rioting in the streets, beating the **** out of pro Trump voters, breaking into houses and businesses, vandalizing civilian vehicles, burning police cars, burning the US flag and holding up a Mexican flag, yelling out "racist", "Facist" etc just because Trump won the election is bull****. I recall a time when the first black president won the election here in the states. Sure Obama recieved death threats (just as Trump does now) but I dont recall mass rioting of KKK and **** SS officers. I dont recall any destructive **** going down across the nation. I also dont believe that all those white people who voted for Obama suddenly turned racist when voting for Trump.
I think of all races, genders and sexualities have it pretty dam good here in the US. We have federal laws and agencies dedicated to the protection of rights for minorities and women. Most every employer is an "equal opportunity" employer. People of all races and genders are employed as government officials. We have had a blacl president and came near close to having a female president. Few people in the nation are being kicked off busses because of their skin color or gender. Few people are being fired or turned away from a new job or university or appartment due to skin color or gender. Few people in nation are being thrown into oven alive. Few people in this country are being thrown into concentration camps. But the sudden everyone is butthurt, easily offended. Everything is racist. Everything is sexist. Everything is homophobic. All the sudden minorities and women are being oppressed and hunted down by white SS cops.
Reality check:
Counter progression
Black lives matter is counter productive because the movement focuses on one specific race rather than all lives being equally important.
Feminism is can be counter productive when some groups focus on the well being and privileges of one specific gender rather than the equality of all genders.
Censorship and taking awat freedom of speech is counter productive because everyone is "entitled" to expressing their views. The more you try to censor the people the more they will express discontent for the system that binds them.
I believe the only way to move forward is for everyone to come to terms with and accept that ever single person is an individual in their own right. Be it race, gender, sexuality, religion, political faction, belives and opinions, favorite sports team, choice of clothing styles, preferred vehicle brand etc. No American should ever fear losing his/her job because they expressed themselves on facebook in a manner that offends another person/s.
#32
11-21-2016, 08:02 PM
As for Great Britain... No ****! Obviously the nation is a empty shell of her former glory. I dont give a dam about or take any interest in colonizing or policing the world business. I like the idea of every nation fending for itself, fighting its own wars, making its own laws, farming and fishing its own lands. I also like the idea of every nation having its own unique idenity, currency, language and customs. Taking pride in heritage and history. Paying tribute to past generations and age old heroes. We do not need a united states of the world. If you want to immigrate to another country then you need to follow the laws and customs of that country. Apply, pay fees, fill out tons of paperwork, medical exaimination, criminal background check, tested on your ability to speak common language of the country for which you wish to live in, ensuring that you have enough $$$$ saved up to get you by for the first 6 months in the country you want to move to etc. Why should some folks be exempt from this procedure? If Mexicans crossing the boarder illegally are granted residence then why the **** cant I (hard working American born and raised) move to England for free? Bull****. But then again if I ever moved to England I would prefer to do so honorably. Not be a leech to the system. Prove myself a good valuable individual that has something to contribute to England. Be it sign up for armed forces or work in agriculture industry to help grow/distribute food for the table. Etc.
I dont believe England will ever revisit her glory days but I can dream.
I dont believe England will ever revisit her glory days but I can dream.
#33
11-21-2016, 11:18 PM
Charlie,
I’m going to work my way backwards through your comments.
To start with, I’ll ignore the comment about your desire to fully understand British history, a topic you seem all to willing to engage in.
Not really. I was originally commenting about Trump. I was directed to Farage and asked about Brexit, and broadcast the fact that my knowledge of it was weak. My comment was focused on populist uprisings on both sides of the pond.
Nonetheless, you talk about a chronology that I assume relates directly to the period from 1973 to the present, with regard to, as you put it, “the British fall.” You seem to want to ignore the fact that the UK, by 1973, was a shadow of it’s once greatness. The UK in the 1970’s was a small industrialized country struggling to find its place in a world that had grown more competitive. It had shed almost all of its colonies and whether you want to talk about that or not it had a tremendous impact on the UK economy. True, the UK still enjoyed favorable deals within the Commonwealth but things were nothing like they were 100 years earlier.
No, it wasn't the same as when the British ruled the seas and colonized specific places for access to resources. That's the way the world evolved, not just Britain.
By 1973 the UK NEEDED the EEC in many ways to remain competitive. The fact is, the amount of money the UK was paying into the EU, was overshadowed by the benefits the country received from it’s membership. It’s a shame but time will tell. In the meanwhile, the Pound Sterling is trading at lows I haven’t seen in decades. I think today I can buy a Pound for $1.23. It wasn’t that long ago, before Brexit, that the Pound was worth 25% more.
I wish the pound was worth even less. Then I could buy a decent rover Diesel and manual transmission. The fact that Britain once needed the EU doesn't mean it does now. The number of failing states in the EU and their economic woes highlights the wisdom of leaving now. I bet alot of Germans wish they could leave, too. Spain and Italy want everyone to stay. That's telling.
I’m sorry Charlie, but all I’m hearing about the UK and the EU are worn out bromides, the implications of which, haven’t really been clearly thought out.
I’m going to work my way backwards through your comments.
To start with, I’ll ignore the comment about your desire to fully understand British history, a topic you seem all to willing to engage in.
Not really. I was originally commenting about Trump. I was directed to Farage and asked about Brexit, and broadcast the fact that my knowledge of it was weak. My comment was focused on populist uprisings on both sides of the pond.
Nonetheless, you talk about a chronology that I assume relates directly to the period from 1973 to the present, with regard to, as you put it, “the British fall.” You seem to want to ignore the fact that the UK, by 1973, was a shadow of it’s once greatness. The UK in the 1970’s was a small industrialized country struggling to find its place in a world that had grown more competitive. It had shed almost all of its colonies and whether you want to talk about that or not it had a tremendous impact on the UK economy. True, the UK still enjoyed favorable deals within the Commonwealth but things were nothing like they were 100 years earlier.
No, it wasn't the same as when the British ruled the seas and colonized specific places for access to resources. That's the way the world evolved, not just Britain.
By 1973 the UK NEEDED the EEC in many ways to remain competitive. The fact is, the amount of money the UK was paying into the EU, was overshadowed by the benefits the country received from it’s membership. It’s a shame but time will tell. In the meanwhile, the Pound Sterling is trading at lows I haven’t seen in decades. I think today I can buy a Pound for $1.23. It wasn’t that long ago, before Brexit, that the Pound was worth 25% more.
I wish the pound was worth even less. Then I could buy a decent rover Diesel and manual transmission. The fact that Britain once needed the EU doesn't mean it does now. The number of failing states in the EU and their economic woes highlights the wisdom of leaving now. I bet alot of Germans wish they could leave, too. Spain and Italy want everyone to stay. That's telling.
I’m sorry Charlie, but all I’m hearing about the UK and the EU are worn out bromides, the implications of which, haven’t really been clearly thought out.
Paul, I am typing on a phone. You're taking advantage of me with your computer!
I may lack historical depth but not thinking things through would be in accurate.
Last edited by Charlie_V; 11-22-2016 at 09:29 AM.
#34
11-21-2016, 11:46 PM
Charlie,
Now, about my comments on MAGA. What really infuriates me is that voters truly believed the bilge Trump offered. The nonsense about bringing back manufacturing. It aint’ gonna happen. We have moved past the mass manufacturing economy of the 1950’s-’70’s. Bethlehem Steel’s not coming back. Hell there are only 200 steel workers still employed in Pittsburgh any more. It’s done. We can’t compete. China had to provide the steel and the installation know how to complete the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge a few years ago. No amount of jaw flapping from Trump is going to change reality.
I dont believe anything because Trump said it. I think for myself. I am embarrassingly educated and thoughtful, though I clearly lack your passion for some of these subjects. China has decimated our manufacturing sector through currency manipulation, favorable trade deals, selling at a loss, and sometimes selling inferior Goods to the extent that the United States bleeds money and jobs. That's not a competition. Trump plans to address both the currency manipulation and trade, reportedly.
And actually I read that Apple wants to move it's manufacturing to the United States. That would be a step in the right direction.
We don’t live in a world of “I Dream of Jeanie” where we cross our arms, nod and our wish is granted.
Agreed, but that's condescending. But we don't live in a. World where we can't question our institutions, either.
The tweets about Trump stopping Ford from leaving KY is a classic example of Trumpian lBS. You might want to read this accurate account of what really happened:
Blindsided by Trump Tweet, UAW Meets With Ford on SUV Plan - Bloomberg
Bloomberg? Haha. Pass.
But then, I guess by your statements about the MSM of which I assume Bloomberg news is a part, you don’t trust or believe them anyway.
Correct. And the bias has been shown in a thousand ways, recently, to the extent of media outlets asking for guidance on how to he honest. I watched the coverage. I read it. It was a national farce.
To deny that there are racist overtones in Trump’s platform would be to ignore the fact that he has been heralded by white supremists ranging from David Duke (former KKK Grand Wizard), to Michael Spencer (who coined the expression alt-right), to **** leader Rocky Suhayda, to the KKK itself. His rhetoric has been nothing but inflammatory all throughout the campaign. In the end we have the Governor of NY, establishing a hot line for reporting racist incidents that have climbed significantly over the last couple of weeks. The town just to the south of me, Danbury, CT has seen a flurry of swaztikas and hateful comments spray painted on homes, buildings, automobiles and in playgrounds. It’s despicable. And to say that Trump’s rhetoric isn’t to blame is ridiculous.
That's absurd. I heard every one of the alleged racist comments and most, if not all, were taken entirely out of context by hysterical MSM commentators and pundits. See comments above. I take the good with the bad when a person speaks extemporaneously, heatedly, or humorously. The fact that some racist supports Trump doesn't make him a racist. It doesn't make the rest of his supporters racists, either. You don't have to be a racist to not want to vote for HRC. You don't have to be white to be a racist. You can just think she is a lying, scheming, hypocrite, or whatever. Are the blacks and Latinos who voted for Trump racist, too? Are the women who votes for him sexist?
He was elected because he is a bomb thrower. People on the fringes, now feel they’ve received an invitation from the President Elect to turn back all of the progress towards equality we’ve seen over the last 50 years.
Maybe you need to study the election map by County. It isn't fringes. The map clearly shows it is urban versus rural, and most of the country is rural. The fact is that HRC spoke to the loudest liberal groups and ignored everyone else. The failure of her overconfidence was, I admit personally, satisfying.
Louder and more hysterical does not equal right.
No, that's not a poke at you, Paul.
But let’s get back too the other things you say Trump is referring to when he states he wants to make America great again. Besides manufacturing you mention jobs. I guess you choose not to believe that unemployment has been consistently dropping and that wages have actually been rising. I know plenty of people who voted for Trump believe that unemployment is at 40% but this is part of the problem with these voters and I think Gore Vidal said it best when he said ‘you can have your own opinions but you can’t have your own facts.”
Unemployment dropping. You mean the number of people collecting unemployment, I presume, because that is the published figure. It is a fraction of the number of people without jobs. The number of people in the United States without jobs and underemployed is staggering.
It’s kind of like how Trump kept saying the election was rigged. The irony is that in the end, he won the election in the Electoral College but lost the popular vote by over 1,500,000 votes! That’s a fact and the number keeps growing as more contested ballots and absentee ballots in California, Oregon and Washington are counted.
The popular vote is inconsequential by constitutional design. It is States, not individuals, who elect the President. In fact were it not for the electoral college, the President would, in every election, be chosen by big city dwellers focusing on urban concerns.
I find it humorous when liberals decry parts of the Constitution they don't like, such as the second amendment and the electoral college.
Now, if you’d like to get into it over rigging, the fact that the Electoral College, a process developed to help the southern states maintain equal or greater power over the more populous northern states by counting all slaves as 3/5ths a person thus giving extra Electors to states like Virginia (isn’t it a bit surprising that four of the first five presidents were all Virginians???) is a classic example of rigging.
The number of electoral votes is equal to the number of senators and representatives, and therefore gives respect to States and their populations, both. It is that simple. Are you arguing that not every State deserves two senators???
Back to the notion that Trump will make the military great again. At what point do we stop and really think about how much money we spend on our military. Right now (the latest numbers are from 2014), we spend more money on our military than Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, France, the UK, India and Germany. It’s scary to think but if you took every cent spent on the military IN THE WORLD, you’d find 34% was spent by the US. (http://books.sipri.org/files/FS/SIPRIFS1504.pdf)
I didn't say he would make the military great again. We already have a great military. Besides, the answer about why people voted for him was not answered with my reasons it was answered with the surmised reasons of his supporters.
That’s crazy. And, what, Trump is going to increase that percentage. Come on. At what point have we had enough.
I don't know anything about that. We already have a great military. Maybe our military is over committed. Military spending is part of our economy. People in the military buy your wares, Paul. They also buy decent cars, houses, food, and everything else we all buy. It is part of our economy.
One last thing before I sign off for now. You say picking groups who did not benefit at any particular time would prevent use of the word great. YES, THAT’S VERY TRUE. If you claim to be a land of freedom it better well be for everyone. We’re nothing more than the red, white and bull*** if we actually think things are good in this country when millions are being discriminated against and treated as second class citizens. It’s a shame but for some reason we fail to see that we have more in common and our hopes and dreams are more alike regardless of our ethnic background or the color of our skin. That white coal miner in eastern KY has more in common with the green card carrying Latino in California picking strawberries than he’d like to believe. But with the type of rhetoric spewed by Trump that sense commonality isn’t embraced. Instead you get white nationalists flocking to his side pledging their support.
I can't make everyone happy at the same time at a dinner table. It is no wonder that not everyone is happy all of the time. I don't think that supports your point, Paul.
Something is very wrong.
Agreed. But it has been wrong for a long time. I think voters wanted to try something different. Hence Trump and Sanders as major contenders. That HRC couldn't defeat Trump with all of her money and "experience" and backing should, if nothing else does, cause you to at least examine your convictions. Trump received 80 million plus votes--nearly half the voting population. When you stand, incredulous and indignant, at his win, you are missing something. The shaming by the media and liberals didn't work--and shaming is how they operate. Bad strategy. By your math, he shouldn't have gotten a single vote and half of America is stupid. That's just not the case, Paul. And in any case it doesn't matter; the election is over and he will be President. I've been on the losing side many times and still managed to respect every result.
Now, about my comments on MAGA. What really infuriates me is that voters truly believed the bilge Trump offered. The nonsense about bringing back manufacturing. It aint’ gonna happen. We have moved past the mass manufacturing economy of the 1950’s-’70’s. Bethlehem Steel’s not coming back. Hell there are only 200 steel workers still employed in Pittsburgh any more. It’s done. We can’t compete. China had to provide the steel and the installation know how to complete the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge a few years ago. No amount of jaw flapping from Trump is going to change reality.
I dont believe anything because Trump said it. I think for myself. I am embarrassingly educated and thoughtful, though I clearly lack your passion for some of these subjects. China has decimated our manufacturing sector through currency manipulation, favorable trade deals, selling at a loss, and sometimes selling inferior Goods to the extent that the United States bleeds money and jobs. That's not a competition. Trump plans to address both the currency manipulation and trade, reportedly.
And actually I read that Apple wants to move it's manufacturing to the United States. That would be a step in the right direction.
We don’t live in a world of “I Dream of Jeanie” where we cross our arms, nod and our wish is granted.
Agreed, but that's condescending. But we don't live in a. World where we can't question our institutions, either.
The tweets about Trump stopping Ford from leaving KY is a classic example of Trumpian lBS. You might want to read this accurate account of what really happened:
Blindsided by Trump Tweet, UAW Meets With Ford on SUV Plan - Bloomberg
Bloomberg? Haha. Pass.
But then, I guess by your statements about the MSM of which I assume Bloomberg news is a part, you don’t trust or believe them anyway.
Correct. And the bias has been shown in a thousand ways, recently, to the extent of media outlets asking for guidance on how to he honest. I watched the coverage. I read it. It was a national farce.
To deny that there are racist overtones in Trump’s platform would be to ignore the fact that he has been heralded by white supremists ranging from David Duke (former KKK Grand Wizard), to Michael Spencer (who coined the expression alt-right), to **** leader Rocky Suhayda, to the KKK itself. His rhetoric has been nothing but inflammatory all throughout the campaign. In the end we have the Governor of NY, establishing a hot line for reporting racist incidents that have climbed significantly over the last couple of weeks. The town just to the south of me, Danbury, CT has seen a flurry of swaztikas and hateful comments spray painted on homes, buildings, automobiles and in playgrounds. It’s despicable. And to say that Trump’s rhetoric isn’t to blame is ridiculous.
That's absurd. I heard every one of the alleged racist comments and most, if not all, were taken entirely out of context by hysterical MSM commentators and pundits. See comments above. I take the good with the bad when a person speaks extemporaneously, heatedly, or humorously. The fact that some racist supports Trump doesn't make him a racist. It doesn't make the rest of his supporters racists, either. You don't have to be a racist to not want to vote for HRC. You don't have to be white to be a racist. You can just think she is a lying, scheming, hypocrite, or whatever. Are the blacks and Latinos who voted for Trump racist, too? Are the women who votes for him sexist?
He was elected because he is a bomb thrower. People on the fringes, now feel they’ve received an invitation from the President Elect to turn back all of the progress towards equality we’ve seen over the last 50 years.
Maybe you need to study the election map by County. It isn't fringes. The map clearly shows it is urban versus rural, and most of the country is rural. The fact is that HRC spoke to the loudest liberal groups and ignored everyone else. The failure of her overconfidence was, I admit personally, satisfying.
Louder and more hysterical does not equal right.
No, that's not a poke at you, Paul.
But let’s get back too the other things you say Trump is referring to when he states he wants to make America great again. Besides manufacturing you mention jobs. I guess you choose not to believe that unemployment has been consistently dropping and that wages have actually been rising. I know plenty of people who voted for Trump believe that unemployment is at 40% but this is part of the problem with these voters and I think Gore Vidal said it best when he said ‘you can have your own opinions but you can’t have your own facts.”
Unemployment dropping. You mean the number of people collecting unemployment, I presume, because that is the published figure. It is a fraction of the number of people without jobs. The number of people in the United States without jobs and underemployed is staggering.
It’s kind of like how Trump kept saying the election was rigged. The irony is that in the end, he won the election in the Electoral College but lost the popular vote by over 1,500,000 votes! That’s a fact and the number keeps growing as more contested ballots and absentee ballots in California, Oregon and Washington are counted.
The popular vote is inconsequential by constitutional design. It is States, not individuals, who elect the President. In fact were it not for the electoral college, the President would, in every election, be chosen by big city dwellers focusing on urban concerns.
I find it humorous when liberals decry parts of the Constitution they don't like, such as the second amendment and the electoral college.
Now, if you’d like to get into it over rigging, the fact that the Electoral College, a process developed to help the southern states maintain equal or greater power over the more populous northern states by counting all slaves as 3/5ths a person thus giving extra Electors to states like Virginia (isn’t it a bit surprising that four of the first five presidents were all Virginians???) is a classic example of rigging.
The number of electoral votes is equal to the number of senators and representatives, and therefore gives respect to States and their populations, both. It is that simple. Are you arguing that not every State deserves two senators???
Back to the notion that Trump will make the military great again. At what point do we stop and really think about how much money we spend on our military. Right now (the latest numbers are from 2014), we spend more money on our military than Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, France, the UK, India and Germany. It’s scary to think but if you took every cent spent on the military IN THE WORLD, you’d find 34% was spent by the US. (http://books.sipri.org/files/FS/SIPRIFS1504.pdf)
I didn't say he would make the military great again. We already have a great military. Besides, the answer about why people voted for him was not answered with my reasons it was answered with the surmised reasons of his supporters.
That’s crazy. And, what, Trump is going to increase that percentage. Come on. At what point have we had enough.
I don't know anything about that. We already have a great military. Maybe our military is over committed. Military spending is part of our economy. People in the military buy your wares, Paul. They also buy decent cars, houses, food, and everything else we all buy. It is part of our economy.
One last thing before I sign off for now. You say picking groups who did not benefit at any particular time would prevent use of the word great. YES, THAT’S VERY TRUE. If you claim to be a land of freedom it better well be for everyone. We’re nothing more than the red, white and bull*** if we actually think things are good in this country when millions are being discriminated against and treated as second class citizens. It’s a shame but for some reason we fail to see that we have more in common and our hopes and dreams are more alike regardless of our ethnic background or the color of our skin. That white coal miner in eastern KY has more in common with the green card carrying Latino in California picking strawberries than he’d like to believe. But with the type of rhetoric spewed by Trump that sense commonality isn’t embraced. Instead you get white nationalists flocking to his side pledging their support.
I can't make everyone happy at the same time at a dinner table. It is no wonder that not everyone is happy all of the time. I don't think that supports your point, Paul.
Something is very wrong.
Agreed. But it has been wrong for a long time. I think voters wanted to try something different. Hence Trump and Sanders as major contenders. That HRC couldn't defeat Trump with all of her money and "experience" and backing should, if nothing else does, cause you to at least examine your convictions. Trump received 80 million plus votes--nearly half the voting population. When you stand, incredulous and indignant, at his win, you are missing something. The shaming by the media and liberals didn't work--and shaming is how they operate. Bad strategy. By your math, he shouldn't have gotten a single vote and half of America is stupid. That's just not the case, Paul. And in any case it doesn't matter; the election is over and he will be President. I've been on the losing side many times and still managed to respect every result.
Last edited by Charlie_V; 11-22-2016 at 01:54 AM.
#35
11-22-2016, 12:12 AM
Charlie, a response to your thoughts on Trump and why he was elected.
1. Reject the Clinton political "dynasty" and HRC in particular. They would be for just about anyone else, including Bernie Sanders (a socialist--that's not a good word in the USA, by the way).
You are aware she got over 1..5 million more votes that Trump.
I am indeed. Mainly from urban voters. See my comments on the electoral college. The popular vote for president is inconsequential by constitutional design.
2. Reject the media, generally, and in specific instances where their fake astonishment and offense was more obvious than usual, and be for whomever the media is not being fair to (for the little guy).
And believe in fake news or conspiracy theories without the slightest need for facts or proof.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...fcd_story.html
There will always be liars. MSM did a lot of lying but I bet they don't consider that fake news. I don't respect a liar and won't listen to them. That's how you deal with a liar in the media: tune them out.
3. Reject career politicians and the two parties, and be for anyone who promises to make a difference in the current situation.
Rather dangerous, I’d say. Every hear of a guy named Hitler. You might want to do a little research on how he slithered into power.
Yes. And he was a socialist. **** = National Socialist German Workers' Party.
4. Be for the coal industry.
The coal industry wasn’t killed off by Obama, it was killed of by economics. Natural gas is just too cheap an alternative and the more we spend on natural gas production the deeper we bury the coal industry. Right now, the only growth for coal is in exports to South America. Overall, exporting is still down. It’s a dying industry with no chance of a significant comeback and any claim otherwise is just pandering.
Coal is dying because of regulation.
5. Be for destroying ISIS and related entities without artificial constraints.
Planning on enlisting or do you just want to send your neighbors kid off to the Middle East to become another target for and IED. Hey, maybe we should just Nuke them and turn the whole region into glass. Yeah, let’s bomb the hell out of them because we saw how well that worked in Vietnam. Didn’t we drop more ordinance on that country (7 million tons) than had been dropped used at anytime in the history of the world?
I'm fifty years old--the military doesn't want me.
Daesh should be utterly destroyed wherever it gathers in significant numbers. It is a cancer on humanity. An abomination. Yes, we should do more.
We need a smarter plan, not just more bombing. Trump: “I would bomb the **** out of ISIS”
That's called hyperbole. But I'd rather send bombs than soldiers.
6. Be for curbing federal spending and taming the economy and the federal reserve.
Are you aware that the Federal Budget has shrunk consistently over the last six years?
https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015...e-fourths-2009
He’s also shrunk the size of the Federal workforce over his eight years in office.
Barack Obama has shrunk the US federal workforce more than Ronald Reagan ? Quartz
Please explain what you mean by taming the federal reserve?
Paul, that's shameful. He claimed to reduce the deficit by comparing it to GDP, not actual money. Ridiculous, phoney, lie.
7. Take over the Supreme Court--and thereby change the social landscape to return to conservative values for a very, very long time. I can tell you that the people who I know who considered the election to be a literal "do or die" situation were focused almost exclusively on the Supreme Court.
I know plenty of people on the left who felt the same way. After Roberts and Alito the court took a decidedly conservative tilt, frankly, someone like Merrick Garland would have been the ideal ninth juror, highly regarded by both sides of the aisle. Unfortunately, McConnell decided to abuse the roll of the Senate in offering “advice and consent” for a nominee. There was absolutely no historical precedence for denying Garland a fair hearing.
I am frightened by a strong conservative tilt in the court. I am concerned about what it will mean for the rights of minorities, women, the environment and a long list of other concerns.
Yes, everyone but white men stands to lose by a conservative Court... isn't that what you mean to say? Really, Paul? The nation was just fine under conservative courts.
Have known two families who lost loved ones at Sandy Hook, I feel deep concern for the direction of gun ownership in this country. I own a gun but I can’t quite get my hands around the notion that as a country there are more legally owned guns out there than there are people. Never mind all the illegally owned guns. I also can’t get over the fact that fewer people own guns today but the number of guns sold every year keeps going up. WTF????
I don't know. There will always be sick people. I have guns and I've never shot anyone. Amazing. Maybe I'm not sick. I have been personally present for a horrific, prolonged gun battle. When it was going on, I spent the time wondering whether, if I was shot in the head, I would have any knowledhge of it before I died, and wishing I had a gun.
8. Be for altering or ending disavantageous trade deals that hurt American jobs. Shortly after Trump was elected, Ford Motor Company rescinded its plans to send the nulk of its manufacturing to Mexico.
You know that your statement is false. Ford was always intending on replacing the Mercury with the Ford Escape. There was no intention of closing the factory other than perhaps for retooling. That’s just another Trumpian falsehood.
Ford tells Trump no Lincoln SUV production going to Mexico Reuters
Maybe. I don't know.
9. Be for controlling immigration by enforcing the law.
Are you aware that more illegal immigrants were deported under the current administration that at any other time?
Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President - ABC News
That's because there are exponentially more illegal immigrants. I don't know how anyone can argue against enforcing the laws but our current president could presumably explain.
10. Be for a closer look at "climate change."
Here’s another one of those, “you can have your own opinion but you can’t have your own facts” situations. Trump has clearly stated that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. Come on.
Paul, I did not claim they were my justifications. But google solar blanking and geothermal activity under Greenland. Then Google false temperature reports. Then Google climatic cycles. The science is unsettled. Scientists are sometimes wrong ajd rarely they lie. Even more rarely they get caught lying. Oh, and regarding China, Google the Russian strategy of disinformatza. The Chinese may have another word for it. Who knows? I don't own coastal property, but studying the electoral map by County, I think a lot of HRC supporters do. If you drive a land rover I'm not sure you can claim high moral ground on the issue ...
11. Be for the Second Amendment (right to keep and bear arms).
I don’t know anyone who wants to or thinks that the 2nd amendment will be repealed. More guns were sold under the Obama administration than any other President. But, curiously, to fewer people. Hmmm. I get concerned about people stockpiling arms.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...a-30-year-low/
People were buying a lot of guns recently, because Democrats kept threatening to outlaw certain kinds and require registration. Is it your business how any other adult spends his money?
12. Be for "right to life" and defunding planned parenthood.
I bet you believe that James O’Keefe video that purported to show Planned Parenthood officials attempting to sell fetal tissue and the other on abortion. I hope you’re aware of the serious credibility gap in O’Keefe’s work. This from a Fox News Co-host:
Fox Host Calls Out James O'Keefe And His Track Record Of Misleading Supporters On Issues Like Abortion
Planned Parenthood provides a lot more in the way of services to women, especially women who would otherwise be unable to afford things like prenatal services, adoption referrals, testing for STD’s, pap tests, breast exams and contraception. Factcheck.org showed, in an article written back in 2015 that abortions account for about 3% of all services provided by Planned Parenthood.
Why would anyone want to defund an organization that helps to provide millions of women with valuable services they would be unable to get otherwise?
I don't want to defund it. I do want it to concentrate more forcefully on some of the things you mentioned and stop being an abortion referral service, or find a replacement organization that will. I don't believe in the taking of innocent life. Every worker at planned parenthood was a baby who was not aborted. You and your family were not aborted, Paul. I want planned parenthood to not decimate minority populations. And yes, I heard the audio. It was pretty unmistakable and I don't need any help understanding what was said. It is not a social or political issue for me, Paul. I respect the law but I can do so while working to change it. Planned Parenthood has come a long way from focusing on actual health and education. It can do what it wants, within the law, but maybe not with tax dollars. We will see.
1. Reject the Clinton political "dynasty" and HRC in particular. They would be for just about anyone else, including Bernie Sanders (a socialist--that's not a good word in the USA, by the way).
You are aware she got over 1..5 million more votes that Trump.
I am indeed. Mainly from urban voters. See my comments on the electoral college. The popular vote for president is inconsequential by constitutional design.
2. Reject the media, generally, and in specific instances where their fake astonishment and offense was more obvious than usual, and be for whomever the media is not being fair to (for the little guy).
And believe in fake news or conspiracy theories without the slightest need for facts or proof.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...fcd_story.html
There will always be liars. MSM did a lot of lying but I bet they don't consider that fake news. I don't respect a liar and won't listen to them. That's how you deal with a liar in the media: tune them out.
3. Reject career politicians and the two parties, and be for anyone who promises to make a difference in the current situation.
Rather dangerous, I’d say. Every hear of a guy named Hitler. You might want to do a little research on how he slithered into power.
Yes. And he was a socialist. **** = National Socialist German Workers' Party.
4. Be for the coal industry.
The coal industry wasn’t killed off by Obama, it was killed of by economics. Natural gas is just too cheap an alternative and the more we spend on natural gas production the deeper we bury the coal industry. Right now, the only growth for coal is in exports to South America. Overall, exporting is still down. It’s a dying industry with no chance of a significant comeback and any claim otherwise is just pandering.
Coal is dying because of regulation.
5. Be for destroying ISIS and related entities without artificial constraints.
Planning on enlisting or do you just want to send your neighbors kid off to the Middle East to become another target for and IED. Hey, maybe we should just Nuke them and turn the whole region into glass. Yeah, let’s bomb the hell out of them because we saw how well that worked in Vietnam. Didn’t we drop more ordinance on that country (7 million tons) than had been dropped used at anytime in the history of the world?
I'm fifty years old--the military doesn't want me.
Daesh should be utterly destroyed wherever it gathers in significant numbers. It is a cancer on humanity. An abomination. Yes, we should do more.
We need a smarter plan, not just more bombing. Trump: “I would bomb the **** out of ISIS”
That's called hyperbole. But I'd rather send bombs than soldiers.
6. Be for curbing federal spending and taming the economy and the federal reserve.
Are you aware that the Federal Budget has shrunk consistently over the last six years?
https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015...e-fourths-2009
He’s also shrunk the size of the Federal workforce over his eight years in office.
Barack Obama has shrunk the US federal workforce more than Ronald Reagan ? Quartz
Please explain what you mean by taming the federal reserve?
Paul, that's shameful. He claimed to reduce the deficit by comparing it to GDP, not actual money. Ridiculous, phoney, lie.
7. Take over the Supreme Court--and thereby change the social landscape to return to conservative values for a very, very long time. I can tell you that the people who I know who considered the election to be a literal "do or die" situation were focused almost exclusively on the Supreme Court.
I know plenty of people on the left who felt the same way. After Roberts and Alito the court took a decidedly conservative tilt, frankly, someone like Merrick Garland would have been the ideal ninth juror, highly regarded by both sides of the aisle. Unfortunately, McConnell decided to abuse the roll of the Senate in offering “advice and consent” for a nominee. There was absolutely no historical precedence for denying Garland a fair hearing.
I am frightened by a strong conservative tilt in the court. I am concerned about what it will mean for the rights of minorities, women, the environment and a long list of other concerns.
Yes, everyone but white men stands to lose by a conservative Court... isn't that what you mean to say? Really, Paul? The nation was just fine under conservative courts.
Have known two families who lost loved ones at Sandy Hook, I feel deep concern for the direction of gun ownership in this country. I own a gun but I can’t quite get my hands around the notion that as a country there are more legally owned guns out there than there are people. Never mind all the illegally owned guns. I also can’t get over the fact that fewer people own guns today but the number of guns sold every year keeps going up. WTF????
I don't know. There will always be sick people. I have guns and I've never shot anyone. Amazing. Maybe I'm not sick. I have been personally present for a horrific, prolonged gun battle. When it was going on, I spent the time wondering whether, if I was shot in the head, I would have any knowledhge of it before I died, and wishing I had a gun.
8. Be for altering or ending disavantageous trade deals that hurt American jobs. Shortly after Trump was elected, Ford Motor Company rescinded its plans to send the nulk of its manufacturing to Mexico.
You know that your statement is false. Ford was always intending on replacing the Mercury with the Ford Escape. There was no intention of closing the factory other than perhaps for retooling. That’s just another Trumpian falsehood.
Ford tells Trump no Lincoln SUV production going to Mexico Reuters
Maybe. I don't know.
9. Be for controlling immigration by enforcing the law.
Are you aware that more illegal immigrants were deported under the current administration that at any other time?
Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President - ABC News
That's because there are exponentially more illegal immigrants. I don't know how anyone can argue against enforcing the laws but our current president could presumably explain.
10. Be for a closer look at "climate change."
Here’s another one of those, “you can have your own opinion but you can’t have your own facts” situations. Trump has clearly stated that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. Come on.
Paul, I did not claim they were my justifications. But google solar blanking and geothermal activity under Greenland. Then Google false temperature reports. Then Google climatic cycles. The science is unsettled. Scientists are sometimes wrong ajd rarely they lie. Even more rarely they get caught lying. Oh, and regarding China, Google the Russian strategy of disinformatza. The Chinese may have another word for it. Who knows? I don't own coastal property, but studying the electoral map by County, I think a lot of HRC supporters do. If you drive a land rover I'm not sure you can claim high moral ground on the issue ...
11. Be for the Second Amendment (right to keep and bear arms).
I don’t know anyone who wants to or thinks that the 2nd amendment will be repealed. More guns were sold under the Obama administration than any other President. But, curiously, to fewer people. Hmmm. I get concerned about people stockpiling arms.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...a-30-year-low/
People were buying a lot of guns recently, because Democrats kept threatening to outlaw certain kinds and require registration. Is it your business how any other adult spends his money?
12. Be for "right to life" and defunding planned parenthood.
I bet you believe that James O’Keefe video that purported to show Planned Parenthood officials attempting to sell fetal tissue and the other on abortion. I hope you’re aware of the serious credibility gap in O’Keefe’s work. This from a Fox News Co-host:
Fox Host Calls Out James O'Keefe And His Track Record Of Misleading Supporters On Issues Like Abortion
Planned Parenthood provides a lot more in the way of services to women, especially women who would otherwise be unable to afford things like prenatal services, adoption referrals, testing for STD’s, pap tests, breast exams and contraception. Factcheck.org showed, in an article written back in 2015 that abortions account for about 3% of all services provided by Planned Parenthood.
Why would anyone want to defund an organization that helps to provide millions of women with valuable services they would be unable to get otherwise?
I don't want to defund it. I do want it to concentrate more forcefully on some of the things you mentioned and stop being an abortion referral service, or find a replacement organization that will. I don't believe in the taking of innocent life. Every worker at planned parenthood was a baby who was not aborted. You and your family were not aborted, Paul. I want planned parenthood to not decimate minority populations. And yes, I heard the audio. It was pretty unmistakable and I don't need any help understanding what was said. It is not a social or political issue for me, Paul. I respect the law but I can do so while working to change it. Planned Parenthood has come a long way from focusing on actual health and education. It can do what it wants, within the law, but maybe not with tax dollars. We will see.
Last edited by Charlie_V; 11-22-2016 at 09:45 AM.
#36
11-22-2016, 09:21 AM
TReK
Originally Posted by Paul Grant
Charlie,
I dont believe anything because Trump said it. I think for myself. I am embarrassingly educated and thoughtful, though I clearly lack your passion for some of these subjects. China has decimated our manufacturing sector through currency manipulation, favorable trade deals, selling at a loss, and sometimes selling inferior Goods to the extent that the United States bleeds money and jobs. That's not a competition. Trump plans to address both the currency manipulation and trade, reportedly.
*******And actually I read that Apple wants to move it's manufacturing to the United States. That would be a step in the right direction.
Yes, Apple has been flirting with the idea of bringing “some” production back to the US for some time now. This is not a new Trump phenomenon. Apple should do just that. And while we’re waiting for them to act we should address the issue of their holding assets offshore to avoid roughly $60B in taxes.
Agreed, but that's condescending. But we don't live in a. World where we can't question our institutions, either.
Bloomberg? Haha. Pass.
Correct. And the bias has been shown in a thousand ways, recently, to the extent of media outlets asking for guidance on how to he honest. I watched the coverage. I read it. It was a national farce.
*******So who do you read? What outlet or outlets do you trust? How do you acquire your information? I know I spend as much time reading everything from the NYT’s and WaPo as I do Brietbart and InfoWars. From the sources I read I try to determine what the truth might be. To simply dismiss a source, out of hand, opens a person to bias.
That's absurd. I heard every one of the alleged racist comments and most, if not all, were taken entirely out of context by hysterical MSM commentators and pundits. See comments above. I take the good with the bad when a person speaks extemporaneously, heatedly, or humorously. The fact that some racist supports Trump doesn't make him a racist. It doesn't make the rest of his supporters racists, either. You don't have to be a racist to not want to vote for HRC. You don't have to be white to be a racist. You can just think she is a lying, scheming, hypocrite, or whatever. Are the blacks and Latinos who voted for Trump racist, too? Are the women who votes for him sexist?
*******You’ve made that great leap that so many have done recently. I never said Trump was racist. He may use “dogwhistle” rhetoric but I have not said he, himself is racist. What I did say was that his rhetoric has ignited support from groups that we would have previously been concerned with. However, suddenly, mentioning that he has been lauded by groups we would have been disgusted by translates into my calling Trump a racist?
Maybe you need to study the election map by County. It isn't fringes.
*******When I said people on the fringes, I was speaking of people like Richard Spencer, David Duke and Rocky Suhayda. I am not tone deaf. I completely get why a horrible candidate like HRC lost. She would never have been my choice for the White House but, neither would Trump. Our choices were awful and we need to address that issue as one people otherwise we will continue to be offered “the lesser of two evils.” I don’t doubt you and I can agree on that.
The map clearly shows it is urban versus rural, and most of the country is rural. The fact is that HRC spoke to the loudest liberal groups and ignored everyone else. The failure of her overconfidence was, I admit personally, satisfying.
*******I’m there with you. She ran an awful campaign and the Democratic Party seems to have completely forgotten who brought them to the party. Since 1980 and the dawn of the “Reagan Democrat” the Party has been flipped on its axis not unlike the Party of Lincoln, as well.
Louder and more hysterical does not equal right.
No, that's not a poke at you, Paul.
Unemployment dropping. You mean the number of people collecting unemployment, I presume, because that is the published figure. It is a fraction of the number of people without jobs. The number of people in the United States without jobs and underemployed is staggering.
********Statistics are statistics. Now you can torture a statistic to say anything you want (.ie 40 million people are unemployed) but the fact remains that unemployment among those actively looking for work is down and wages are up. I will admit that growth has been painfully slow but I think we’ve forgotten exactly how far we’ve come since October of 2008 when the world economy teetered on the brink.
The popular vote is inconsequential by constitutional design. It is States, not individuals, who elect the President. In fact were it not for the electoral college, the President would, in every election, be chosen by big city dwellers focusing on urban concerns.
I find it humorous when liberals decry parts of the Constitution they don't like, such as the second amendment and the electoral college.
*******I’m not decrying parts of the Constitution. I am merely trying to illustrate that any notion that Trump may have received a majority or that Trump is speaking for the majority of Americans is false. The bottom line is that over 40% of Americans failed to even bother to vote (like that ******* Kanye West) and that among those that did, the majority, by over 7 million did not vote for Trump. Yet, you have Reince Priebus claim he won by “an Electoral landslide.” Goldwater v. Johnson, Mondale v. Reagan were Electoral landslides, not this election.
We’re both old enough to remember how Bill Clinton was vilified by the Right and his legitimacy was questioned because he only got about 43% of the vote in 1992.
The number of electoral votes is equal to the number of senators and representatives, and therefore gives respect to States and their populations, both. It is that simple. Are you arguing that not every State deserves two senators???
*******Not at all. I’m attempting to point out that the origins of the Electoral College were not founded on some lofty ideal of protecting the rabble from themselves. It was instituted, based on the Three Fifths Compromise. Look it up.
I didn't say he would make the military great again. We already have a great military. Besides, the answer about why people voted for him was not answered with my reasons it was answered with the surmised reasons of his supporters.
I don't know anything about that. We already have a great military. Maybe our military is over committed.
*******With regard to over commitment, I’ll refer again to Paul Kennedy’s excellent book (cited in another post) “The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers.” I fully agree, we have more military bases around the world than any other nation at any other time in world history. I don’t think we’re that far off when we both recognize there is a need for change. However, reneging on treaties, in the manner in which Trump has intimated, has the potential for destroying the trust we’ve built up all over the world since the end of WWII.
Military spending is part of our economy. People in the military buy your wares, Paul. They also buy decent cars, houses, food, and everything else we all buy. It is part of our economy.
*******The military industrial complex is TOO much of our economy. It’s something we need to wean ourselves off. But, we don’t go about achieving that reduction by abrogating treaties and arrangements we’ve had with nations for decades.
I can't make everyone happy at the same time at a dinner table. It is no wonder that not everyone is happy all of the time. I don't think that supports your point, Paul.
*******It’s not about glibly “making everyone happy.” That’s a bit over simplistic. It’s about insuring that people’s rights are protected. This is something that deeply concerns me about the new administration.
Agreed. But it has been wrong for a long time. I think voters wanted to try something different. Hence Trump and Sanders as major contenders. That HRC couldn't defeat Trump with all of her money and "experience" and backing should, if nothing else does, cause you to at least examine your convictions. Trump received 80 million plus votes--nearly half the voting population.
*******The key word there is NEARLY. If you combine the votes that weren’t for Trump, the number EXCEEDS half of the voting population. Your statement is precisely why I have to keep reiterating that fact. I’m not saying she should be the President but I am warning against the claim that Trump represents anywhere near the majority of Americans.
With a few million votes left to be counted (mainly in HRC leaning areas of the country like CA), the results are as follows:
Evan McMullin 443,000 votes or .36%
Jill Stein 1,192,000 votes or .96%
Gary Johnson 4,012,000 votes or 3.23%
Hillary Clinton 63,600,000 votes or 48%
Donald Trump 61,900,000 votes or 46.7%
In other words, 52.55% of voters did not think Trump should be President. Where did you get the 80,000,000 vote total from? Does that include the people who voted for I’m during the primaries?????
When you stand, incredulous and indignant, at his win, you are missing something. The shaming by the media and liberals didn't work--and shaming is how they operate. Bad strategy. By your math, he shouldn't have gotten a single vote and half of America is stupid.
*******Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never called half of America stupid (just 46.7% JUST JOKING!!!!!). I’ll say it again, HRC ran an awful campaign and ignored the millions of people who consistently brought home the victory for the Democratic Party, the working class. I understand and appreciate their frustration. I am a member of that working class. I am just saddened by the fact that the only real agent for change in this election cycle was Trump. I have no confidence in him. Having grown up in the NYC area all my life I have seen how he has handled himself. As a result I could never bring myself to vote for him.
That's just not the case, Paul. And in any case it doesn't matter; the election is over and he will be President. I've been on the losing side many times and still managed to respect every result.
*******I respect the results but that doesn’t mean I still can’t be saddened by them nor begin formulating a plan of resistance to his agenda.
I was saddened by the results of 2000 as well. I use it as an example whenever anyone tells me their vote doesn’t matter. All I would like from those who voted for Trump is to realize that they were not a majority of the voters by any stretch. This is not a denial of the Electoral College, it is simply mathematics. He did not receive a mandate and he needs to be inclusive, not exclusive.
I'll get to the rest of your comments later. Gotta ship out parts to Rover owners!
Charlie,
I dont believe anything because Trump said it. I think for myself. I am embarrassingly educated and thoughtful, though I clearly lack your passion for some of these subjects. China has decimated our manufacturing sector through currency manipulation, favorable trade deals, selling at a loss, and sometimes selling inferior Goods to the extent that the United States bleeds money and jobs. That's not a competition. Trump plans to address both the currency manipulation and trade, reportedly.
*******And actually I read that Apple wants to move it's manufacturing to the United States. That would be a step in the right direction.
Yes, Apple has been flirting with the idea of bringing “some” production back to the US for some time now. This is not a new Trump phenomenon. Apple should do just that. And while we’re waiting for them to act we should address the issue of their holding assets offshore to avoid roughly $60B in taxes.
Agreed, but that's condescending. But we don't live in a. World where we can't question our institutions, either.
Bloomberg? Haha. Pass.
Correct. And the bias has been shown in a thousand ways, recently, to the extent of media outlets asking for guidance on how to he honest. I watched the coverage. I read it. It was a national farce.
*******So who do you read? What outlet or outlets do you trust? How do you acquire your information? I know I spend as much time reading everything from the NYT’s and WaPo as I do Brietbart and InfoWars. From the sources I read I try to determine what the truth might be. To simply dismiss a source, out of hand, opens a person to bias.
That's absurd. I heard every one of the alleged racist comments and most, if not all, were taken entirely out of context by hysterical MSM commentators and pundits. See comments above. I take the good with the bad when a person speaks extemporaneously, heatedly, or humorously. The fact that some racist supports Trump doesn't make him a racist. It doesn't make the rest of his supporters racists, either. You don't have to be a racist to not want to vote for HRC. You don't have to be white to be a racist. You can just think she is a lying, scheming, hypocrite, or whatever. Are the blacks and Latinos who voted for Trump racist, too? Are the women who votes for him sexist?
*******You’ve made that great leap that so many have done recently. I never said Trump was racist. He may use “dogwhistle” rhetoric but I have not said he, himself is racist. What I did say was that his rhetoric has ignited support from groups that we would have previously been concerned with. However, suddenly, mentioning that he has been lauded by groups we would have been disgusted by translates into my calling Trump a racist?
Maybe you need to study the election map by County. It isn't fringes.
*******When I said people on the fringes, I was speaking of people like Richard Spencer, David Duke and Rocky Suhayda. I am not tone deaf. I completely get why a horrible candidate like HRC lost. She would never have been my choice for the White House but, neither would Trump. Our choices were awful and we need to address that issue as one people otherwise we will continue to be offered “the lesser of two evils.” I don’t doubt you and I can agree on that.
The map clearly shows it is urban versus rural, and most of the country is rural. The fact is that HRC spoke to the loudest liberal groups and ignored everyone else. The failure of her overconfidence was, I admit personally, satisfying.
*******I’m there with you. She ran an awful campaign and the Democratic Party seems to have completely forgotten who brought them to the party. Since 1980 and the dawn of the “Reagan Democrat” the Party has been flipped on its axis not unlike the Party of Lincoln, as well.
Louder and more hysterical does not equal right.
No, that's not a poke at you, Paul.
Unemployment dropping. You mean the number of people collecting unemployment, I presume, because that is the published figure. It is a fraction of the number of people without jobs. The number of people in the United States without jobs and underemployed is staggering.
********Statistics are statistics. Now you can torture a statistic to say anything you want (.ie 40 million people are unemployed) but the fact remains that unemployment among those actively looking for work is down and wages are up. I will admit that growth has been painfully slow but I think we’ve forgotten exactly how far we’ve come since October of 2008 when the world economy teetered on the brink.
The popular vote is inconsequential by constitutional design. It is States, not individuals, who elect the President. In fact were it not for the electoral college, the President would, in every election, be chosen by big city dwellers focusing on urban concerns.
I find it humorous when liberals decry parts of the Constitution they don't like, such as the second amendment and the electoral college.
*******I’m not decrying parts of the Constitution. I am merely trying to illustrate that any notion that Trump may have received a majority or that Trump is speaking for the majority of Americans is false. The bottom line is that over 40% of Americans failed to even bother to vote (like that ******* Kanye West) and that among those that did, the majority, by over 7 million did not vote for Trump. Yet, you have Reince Priebus claim he won by “an Electoral landslide.” Goldwater v. Johnson, Mondale v. Reagan were Electoral landslides, not this election.
We’re both old enough to remember how Bill Clinton was vilified by the Right and his legitimacy was questioned because he only got about 43% of the vote in 1992.
The number of electoral votes is equal to the number of senators and representatives, and therefore gives respect to States and their populations, both. It is that simple. Are you arguing that not every State deserves two senators???
*******Not at all. I’m attempting to point out that the origins of the Electoral College were not founded on some lofty ideal of protecting the rabble from themselves. It was instituted, based on the Three Fifths Compromise. Look it up.
I didn't say he would make the military great again. We already have a great military. Besides, the answer about why people voted for him was not answered with my reasons it was answered with the surmised reasons of his supporters.
I don't know anything about that. We already have a great military. Maybe our military is over committed.
*******With regard to over commitment, I’ll refer again to Paul Kennedy’s excellent book (cited in another post) “The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers.” I fully agree, we have more military bases around the world than any other nation at any other time in world history. I don’t think we’re that far off when we both recognize there is a need for change. However, reneging on treaties, in the manner in which Trump has intimated, has the potential for destroying the trust we’ve built up all over the world since the end of WWII.
Military spending is part of our economy. People in the military buy your wares, Paul. They also buy decent cars, houses, food, and everything else we all buy. It is part of our economy.
*******The military industrial complex is TOO much of our economy. It’s something we need to wean ourselves off. But, we don’t go about achieving that reduction by abrogating treaties and arrangements we’ve had with nations for decades.
I can't make everyone happy at the same time at a dinner table. It is no wonder that not everyone is happy all of the time. I don't think that supports your point, Paul.
*******It’s not about glibly “making everyone happy.” That’s a bit over simplistic. It’s about insuring that people’s rights are protected. This is something that deeply concerns me about the new administration.
Agreed. But it has been wrong for a long time. I think voters wanted to try something different. Hence Trump and Sanders as major contenders. That HRC couldn't defeat Trump with all of her money and "experience" and backing should, if nothing else does, cause you to at least examine your convictions. Trump received 80 million plus votes--nearly half the voting population.
*******The key word there is NEARLY. If you combine the votes that weren’t for Trump, the number EXCEEDS half of the voting population. Your statement is precisely why I have to keep reiterating that fact. I’m not saying she should be the President but I am warning against the claim that Trump represents anywhere near the majority of Americans.
With a few million votes left to be counted (mainly in HRC leaning areas of the country like CA), the results are as follows:
Evan McMullin 443,000 votes or .36%
Jill Stein 1,192,000 votes or .96%
Gary Johnson 4,012,000 votes or 3.23%
Hillary Clinton 63,600,000 votes or 48%
Donald Trump 61,900,000 votes or 46.7%
In other words, 52.55% of voters did not think Trump should be President. Where did you get the 80,000,000 vote total from? Does that include the people who voted for I’m during the primaries?????
When you stand, incredulous and indignant, at his win, you are missing something. The shaming by the media and liberals didn't work--and shaming is how they operate. Bad strategy. By your math, he shouldn't have gotten a single vote and half of America is stupid.
*******Please don’t put words in my mouth. I never called half of America stupid (just 46.7% JUST JOKING!!!!!). I’ll say it again, HRC ran an awful campaign and ignored the millions of people who consistently brought home the victory for the Democratic Party, the working class. I understand and appreciate their frustration. I am a member of that working class. I am just saddened by the fact that the only real agent for change in this election cycle was Trump. I have no confidence in him. Having grown up in the NYC area all my life I have seen how he has handled himself. As a result I could never bring myself to vote for him.
That's just not the case, Paul. And in any case it doesn't matter; the election is over and he will be President. I've been on the losing side many times and still managed to respect every result.
*******I respect the results but that doesn’t mean I still can’t be saddened by them nor begin formulating a plan of resistance to his agenda.
I was saddened by the results of 2000 as well. I use it as an example whenever anyone tells me their vote doesn’t matter. All I would like from those who voted for Trump is to realize that they were not a majority of the voters by any stretch. This is not a denial of the Electoral College, it is simply mathematics. He did not receive a mandate and he needs to be inclusive, not exclusive.
I'll get to the rest of your comments later. Gotta ship out parts to Rover owners!
#37
11-22-2016, 09:59 AM
TReK
When will the race card get old? When will the gender card get old? When will people stop playing the victim card? If anyone thinks life in the US is so bad then your welcome to seek "asylum" in the Afghanistanl or Iraq.
Racism is not illegal in the US because its a "belief" held by "some" that their race is superior to other races. Is racism a problem? No because its not an action and it does not prevent anyone else from pursuing their own happiness. Racism exist within every race of people.
Hate crimes are illegal in the US because they are physical "actions" usually destructive against other people.
Diversity is a twl way street- maybe a 4 way street nowadays. Diversity of races, gender, sexuality, religion but also diversity of opinions, views, beliefs and political faction. You cant preech diversity then turn around and throw rocks at your neighbor because he/she has opposing preference or views; that makes you an hypocrite.
People rioting in the streets, beating the **** out of pro Trump voters, breaking into houses and businesses, vandalizing civilian vehicles, burning police cars, burning the US flag and holding up a Mexican flag, yelling out "racist", "Facist" etc just because Trump won the election is bull****. I recall a time when the first black president won the election here in the states. Sure Obama recieved death threats (just as Trump does now) but I dont recall mass rioting of KKK and **** SS officers. I dont recall any destructive **** going down across the nation. I also dont believe that all those white people who voted for Obama suddenly turned racist when voting for Trump.
I think of all races, genders and sexualities have it pretty dam good here in the US. We have federal laws and agencies dedicated to the protection of rights for minorities and women. Most every employer is an "equal opportunity" employer. People of all races and genders are employed as government officials. We have had a blacl president and came near close to having a female president. Few people in the nation are being kicked off busses because of their skin color or gender. Few people are being fired or turned away from a new job or university or appartment due to skin color or gender. Few people in nation are being thrown into oven alive. Few people in this country are being thrown into concentration camps. But the sudden everyone is butthurt, easily offended. Everything is racist. Everything is sexist. Everything is homophobic. All the sudden minorities and women are being oppressed and hunted down by white SS cops.
Reality check:
https://youtu.be/2FwLhc2NSQ0
https://youtu.be/iB5lirVJtwE
https://youtu.be/1d9lm-T87AQ
Counter progression
https://youtu.be/llnoIsAk66g
Black lives matter is counter productive because the movement focuses on one specific race rather than all lives being equally important.
Feminism is can be counter productive when some groups focus on the well being and privileges of one specific gender rather than the equality of all genders.
Censorship and taking awat freedom of speech is counter productive because everyone is "entitled" to expressing their views. The more you try to censor the people the more they will express discontent for the system that binds them.
I believe the only way to move forward is for everyone to come to terms with and accept that ever single person is an individual in their own right. Be it race, gender, sexuality, religion, political faction, belives and opinions, favorite sports team, choice of clothing styles, preferred vehicle brand etc. No American should ever fear losing his/her job because they expressed themselves on facebook in a manner that offends another person/s.
Racism is not illegal in the US because its a "belief" held by "some" that their race is superior to other races. Is racism a problem? No because its not an action and it does not prevent anyone else from pursuing their own happiness. Racism exist within every race of people.
Hate crimes are illegal in the US because they are physical "actions" usually destructive against other people.
Diversity is a twl way street- maybe a 4 way street nowadays. Diversity of races, gender, sexuality, religion but also diversity of opinions, views, beliefs and political faction. You cant preech diversity then turn around and throw rocks at your neighbor because he/she has opposing preference or views; that makes you an hypocrite.
People rioting in the streets, beating the **** out of pro Trump voters, breaking into houses and businesses, vandalizing civilian vehicles, burning police cars, burning the US flag and holding up a Mexican flag, yelling out "racist", "Facist" etc just because Trump won the election is bull****. I recall a time when the first black president won the election here in the states. Sure Obama recieved death threats (just as Trump does now) but I dont recall mass rioting of KKK and **** SS officers. I dont recall any destructive **** going down across the nation. I also dont believe that all those white people who voted for Obama suddenly turned racist when voting for Trump.
I think of all races, genders and sexualities have it pretty dam good here in the US. We have federal laws and agencies dedicated to the protection of rights for minorities and women. Most every employer is an "equal opportunity" employer. People of all races and genders are employed as government officials. We have had a blacl president and came near close to having a female president. Few people in the nation are being kicked off busses because of their skin color or gender. Few people are being fired or turned away from a new job or university or appartment due to skin color or gender. Few people in nation are being thrown into oven alive. Few people in this country are being thrown into concentration camps. But the sudden everyone is butthurt, easily offended. Everything is racist. Everything is sexist. Everything is homophobic. All the sudden minorities and women are being oppressed and hunted down by white SS cops.
Reality check:
https://youtu.be/2FwLhc2NSQ0
https://youtu.be/iB5lirVJtwE
https://youtu.be/1d9lm-T87AQ
Counter progression
https://youtu.be/llnoIsAk66g
Black lives matter is counter productive because the movement focuses on one specific race rather than all lives being equally important.
Feminism is can be counter productive when some groups focus on the well being and privileges of one specific gender rather than the equality of all genders.
Censorship and taking awat freedom of speech is counter productive because everyone is "entitled" to expressing their views. The more you try to censor the people the more they will express discontent for the system that binds them.
I believe the only way to move forward is for everyone to come to terms with and accept that ever single person is an individual in their own right. Be it race, gender, sexuality, religion, political faction, belives and opinions, favorite sports team, choice of clothing styles, preferred vehicle brand etc. No American should ever fear losing his/her job because they expressed themselves on facebook in a manner that offends another person/s.
I'm confused, was this tirade directed at me? I neither condone nor even understand the purpose of the videos you posted within the context of this discussion. You pictures ranging from the HMS Victory to a woman clearly exhibiting a death wish have me at a loss. Take a breath, collect your ideas and put forth a cogent idea. Oh, and try to keep in mind that there are an awful lot of us out there who really don't think sites like InfoWars are all that credible or that Alex Jones is anything more than a snakeoil salesman.
#38
11-22-2016, 10:36 AM
I take your comments to heart, Paul, and know that they come from a place of true conviction. Even though I don't agree with everything I definitely appreciate and respect your responses. And I wasn't calling you a liberal or any other name; that's not my style. Recall that I was typing on my phone.
Michael Bloomberg is a smart man. He is worth, what, 42 billion dollars? That's pretty amazing given that he did not invent a perpetual motion machine or Microsoft Windows. It is amazing that the Clintons were "broke" when they left the White House and became rich in a few months, and richer still through the date of her defeat. Bloomberg makes Trump and Clinton look poor. But I think the United States needs a little less of New York City (or, as denizens call it, "The City"), and both Bloomberg and his publications epitomize The City. The idea that a media owner has some influence over its reporting is well-established, even if it is just indirect groveling by the editorial staff.
I learn the news online, either reading or streaming, and really enjoy reading OTUS (other than US) news sources for their unique perspective as well as trending articles. I hate the 24 hour TV news cycle.
Michael Bloomberg is a smart man. He is worth, what, 42 billion dollars? That's pretty amazing given that he did not invent a perpetual motion machine or Microsoft Windows. It is amazing that the Clintons were "broke" when they left the White House and became rich in a few months, and richer still through the date of her defeat. Bloomberg makes Trump and Clinton look poor. But I think the United States needs a little less of New York City (or, as denizens call it, "The City"), and both Bloomberg and his publications epitomize The City. The idea that a media owner has some influence over its reporting is well-established, even if it is just indirect groveling by the editorial staff.
I learn the news online, either reading or streaming, and really enjoy reading OTUS (other than US) news sources for their unique perspective as well as trending articles. I hate the 24 hour TV news cycle.
Last edited by Charlie_V; 11-22-2016 at 01:05 PM.
#39
11-22-2016, 10:51 AM
TReK
I'm there with you Charlie. No ill intended. As far as the news is concerned, it wasn't until this year that I even brought cable into our home. The only reason was so I could watch the Mets in real time. I've subscribed to MLBTv.com for years but because of archane blackout laws I've always wound up watching the game at 3am!!!!
I cannot believe the tripe that's passed off as reporting on many of the channels. CNN would do us all a great favor if it just shut itself down. Morning shows like Morning Joe are exactly what people who voted for Trump are so angry about, a bunch of people with advanced degrees and no contact with people who actually have to work and worry about mortgages, car payments and medical expenses, sitting around pontificating. I get it.
However, we have to find our information somewhere and, more than ever, we have to do due diligence. Nothing can be taken at face value.
If you were to look at the list of bookmarked sites I have on my computer I think you'd be surprised. I spent as much time on sites like Free Republic, PJ News, the Federalist, Powerline, Brietbart and Infowars as I do on typical sites on the left. I also spend time on sites like Watching America which is an interesting aggregator of news from around the world that relates to US activity.
I tend to listen to podcasts more for entertainment but appreciate Dan Carlin who would call himself a libertarian. Common Sense is a thoroughly enjoyable podcast. I recommend it highly. On the other side of the coin I regularly listen to Stephan Molyneux and his Freedomain podcast. I find him entertaining for a different reason. He constantly calls himself a philosopher and loves quoting the ancient Greeks. Yet his arguments are so vapid and self serving. Listening to him is like watching bad physical comedy.
I still have more to say and I thank you for sticking with the conversation.
Cheers!
I cannot believe the tripe that's passed off as reporting on many of the channels. CNN would do us all a great favor if it just shut itself down. Morning shows like Morning Joe are exactly what people who voted for Trump are so angry about, a bunch of people with advanced degrees and no contact with people who actually have to work and worry about mortgages, car payments and medical expenses, sitting around pontificating. I get it.
However, we have to find our information somewhere and, more than ever, we have to do due diligence. Nothing can be taken at face value.
If you were to look at the list of bookmarked sites I have on my computer I think you'd be surprised. I spent as much time on sites like Free Republic, PJ News, the Federalist, Powerline, Brietbart and Infowars as I do on typical sites on the left. I also spend time on sites like Watching America which is an interesting aggregator of news from around the world that relates to US activity.
I tend to listen to podcasts more for entertainment but appreciate Dan Carlin who would call himself a libertarian. Common Sense is a thoroughly enjoyable podcast. I recommend it highly. On the other side of the coin I regularly listen to Stephan Molyneux and his Freedomain podcast. I find him entertaining for a different reason. He constantly calls himself a philosopher and loves quoting the ancient Greeks. Yet his arguments are so vapid and self serving. Listening to him is like watching bad physical comedy.
I still have more to say and I thank you for sticking with the conversation.
Cheers!
#40
11-22-2016, 01:46 PM
I went the other way; I got rid of cable and satellite (absurdly, we had both!). It makes me happier. I am a very early riser and I would be completely ticked off from watching the news while drinking coffee, every.single.stinkin'.day. My wife actually canceled them. I was shocked at first, but we got some streaming services and life--or at least the morning--is actually alot better now.
Last edited by Charlie_V; 11-22-2016 at 02:02 PM.