Series 3 hybrid vision
#1
01-13-2015, 05:46 PM
Series 3 hybrid vision
So i see some of you like to get bent out of shape with some of my ideas and opinions on things so Im going to feed into it a little bit more be it cautiously.
I have previously expressed interest in owning 3 Rovers. A Defender, a D2 and a LR3. For over a year now Ive been lusting for a LR3 HSE with the center and rear Diff lockers. But recently Ive taken a cudden curve towards the Series III 109. Ideally Id shoot for a Defender but I do not foresee myself having the $$$$ to buy one of those anytime in the next decade.
I love how the Series III looks, love all the options and I love how easily you can add/remove/replace and modify things on those trucks. My understanding its as simply as "bolt on and go". But I do not like how slow they are and I do not like how drafty they get and Im told they have terrible heater systems. Not very comfortable and the stick shift and 4x4 controls are a occupation in themselves. So Ive thought about my options and here is my big idea. Never seen or heard of anyone else doing this before...
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
- Extend chassis and body panels to 130 spec
- Galvanized chassis
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
- Aftermarket Defender interior seats
- Aftermarket Defender dash
- Aftermarket Defender center console
- Upgrade all rubber seals
- Insulate the interior cabin with rubberized material followed by carpeting
- Manual windows and seats
- No sun-roofs
- Discovery 2 or RRC heating system
- Heated front and rear windshields
- Heated seats
- Off-road navigation GPS system
- CB/HAM radio
- Classic "half roof rack"
- Hard top pop-top camper
- only 4 passenger windows
- Extra storage compartments built into body panels
- HID headlights
- Warn off-road driving lights
- Warn winch
- Tinted windows
- Bonatti grey exterior paint
- Black interior everything
- Disco 2 rear view mirror with built in compass
- Outside temp display
- Built in air compressor
- Dual battery
- built in shower
- Barred windows
- Anti-theft devices
- Slim rugged tires
- Maniteck snorkel
- Underbody armor
- Magnaflow exhaust
- SS brake lines
Wet dream. Let the battle begin
I have previously expressed interest in owning 3 Rovers. A Defender, a D2 and a LR3. For over a year now Ive been lusting for a LR3 HSE with the center and rear Diff lockers. But recently Ive taken a cudden curve towards the Series III 109. Ideally Id shoot for a Defender but I do not foresee myself having the $$$$ to buy one of those anytime in the next decade.
I love how the Series III looks, love all the options and I love how easily you can add/remove/replace and modify things on those trucks. My understanding its as simply as "bolt on and go". But I do not like how slow they are and I do not like how drafty they get and Im told they have terrible heater systems. Not very comfortable and the stick shift and 4x4 controls are a occupation in themselves. So Ive thought about my options and here is my big idea. Never seen or heard of anyone else doing this before...
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
- Extend chassis and body panels to 130 spec
- Galvanized chassis
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
- Aftermarket Defender interior seats
- Aftermarket Defender dash
- Aftermarket Defender center console
- Upgrade all rubber seals
- Insulate the interior cabin with rubberized material followed by carpeting
- Manual windows and seats
- No sun-roofs
- Discovery 2 or RRC heating system
- Heated front and rear windshields
- Heated seats
- Off-road navigation GPS system
- CB/HAM radio
- Classic "half roof rack"
- Hard top pop-top camper
- only 4 passenger windows
- Extra storage compartments built into body panels
- HID headlights
- Warn off-road driving lights
- Warn winch
- Tinted windows
- Bonatti grey exterior paint
- Black interior everything
- Disco 2 rear view mirror with built in compass
- Outside temp display
- Built in air compressor
- Dual battery
- built in shower
- Barred windows
- Anti-theft devices
- Slim rugged tires
- Maniteck snorkel
- Underbody armor
- Magnaflow exhaust
- SS brake lines
Wet dream. Let the battle begin
#2
01-14-2015, 01:56 PM
Recovery Vehicle
#4
01-14-2015, 02:34 PM
Recovery Vehicle
Hell, just this stuff:
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
- Extend chassis and body panels to 130 spec
- Galvanized chassis
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
is probably more than Jafir paid for his Defender.
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
- Extend chassis and body panels to 130 spec
- Galvanized chassis
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
is probably more than Jafir paid for his Defender.
#5
01-14-2015, 03:51 PM
Hell, just this stuff:
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
- Extend chassis and body panels to 130 spec
- Galvanized chassis
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
is probably more than Jafir paid for his Defender.
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
- Extend chassis and body panels to 130 spec
- Galvanized chassis
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
is probably more than Jafir paid for his Defender.
I was thinking more along the lines of a donor Disco 1 and a 300TDI kit from Rovers North. Used parts from a D1 are cheap. Unfortunately Zack has not yet revealed how much his tdi kit cost but it could not have been to to expensive...
#6
01-14-2015, 03:57 PM
Recovery Vehicle
#7
01-14-2015, 04:13 PM
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
It's heavy and weak. The TD5 was loathed by simpletons, but proved to be the best diesel Land Rover ever produced. Still, the Rover V8 is superior in every way. It's not only lighter, which makes everything better, it's also more powerful. Although it uses more fuel per mile, at current prices in the US, the total cost to acquire and operate a diesel would be far higher than a Rover V8. The V8 is also much quieter and more pleasant. Furthermore, Land Rovers, especially Series, were traditionally petrol-fueled (gasoline). Traditionally speaking, diesels are un-Land-Rover-like. The early diesels didn't come until after nearly 10 years of Series production, and then they were awful and despised. It had about the same power and torque as some motorcycles. The 4 cylinder petrol engine had 50% more power. The V8, when it came along, had more than double the power of the 4 cylinder petrol engine, and weighed less. There was certainly no comparison to the diesel pig. Land Rover diesels continued to suck all the way until perhaps the 200TDI. That was 1989. So the whole concept of Land Rovers being any good with a diesel engine is entirely a modern one that comes from the era where Land Rover had committed to all the turns you believe were mistakes, and a diesel-powered Land Rover is antithetical to your concept of Land Rover's glory.
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
These are all found on the Defender which you could purchase. But in the case of the brakes, the D90 has better brakes than the D1.
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
Introduced with the Range Rover Classic you think was a mistake. It was in fact so good that Land Rover decided to pop the Series bodies onto what was essentially a Range Rover Classic chassis and call it the 90 and 110, which were later called "Defender."
- Aftermarket Defender interior seats
- Aftermarket Defender dash
- Aftermarket Defender center console
Which are essentially provided for the monied elite that pay six figures for a Defender and think it should come with something nicer than the vinyl bench for that price. Your humble, working class envy of the rich is showing.
- Discovery 2 or RRC heating system
because everyone loves the RRC's blower experience
- Heated front and rear windshields
another RRC innovation
By the way, the Series III was considered by many to be a cheapening of the Series line. For example, they switched the previously iconic metal grill to a crappy plastic one. They did many similar things to make the Series III cheaper to produce, and the level of quality was down across the board compared to earlier models. While some things can be considered "progress," don't forget that much of progress is finding ways to make something at lower cost and higher profit to the manufacturer. For the end-user, some progress is backwards.
It's heavy and weak. The TD5 was loathed by simpletons, but proved to be the best diesel Land Rover ever produced. Still, the Rover V8 is superior in every way. It's not only lighter, which makes everything better, it's also more powerful. Although it uses more fuel per mile, at current prices in the US, the total cost to acquire and operate a diesel would be far higher than a Rover V8. The V8 is also much quieter and more pleasant. Furthermore, Land Rovers, especially Series, were traditionally petrol-fueled (gasoline). Traditionally speaking, diesels are un-Land-Rover-like. The early diesels didn't come until after nearly 10 years of Series production, and then they were awful and despised. It had about the same power and torque as some motorcycles. The 4 cylinder petrol engine had 50% more power. The V8, when it came along, had more than double the power of the 4 cylinder petrol engine, and weighed less. There was certainly no comparison to the diesel pig. Land Rover diesels continued to suck all the way until perhaps the 200TDI. That was 1989. So the whole concept of Land Rovers being any good with a diesel engine is entirely a modern one that comes from the era where Land Rover had committed to all the turns you believe were mistakes, and a diesel-powered Land Rover is antithetical to your concept of Land Rover's glory.
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
These are all found on the Defender which you could purchase. But in the case of the brakes, the D90 has better brakes than the D1.
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
Introduced with the Range Rover Classic you think was a mistake. It was in fact so good that Land Rover decided to pop the Series bodies onto what was essentially a Range Rover Classic chassis and call it the 90 and 110, which were later called "Defender."
- Aftermarket Defender interior seats
- Aftermarket Defender dash
- Aftermarket Defender center console
Which are essentially provided for the monied elite that pay six figures for a Defender and think it should come with something nicer than the vinyl bench for that price. Your humble, working class envy of the rich is showing.
- Discovery 2 or RRC heating system
because everyone loves the RRC's blower experience
- Heated front and rear windshields
another RRC innovation
By the way, the Series III was considered by many to be a cheapening of the Series line. For example, they switched the previously iconic metal grill to a crappy plastic one. They did many similar things to make the Series III cheaper to produce, and the level of quality was down across the board compared to earlier models. While some things can be considered "progress," don't forget that much of progress is finding ways to make something at lower cost and higher profit to the manufacturer. For the end-user, some progress is backwards.
The following users liked this post:
TRIARII (01-14-2015)
#8
01-14-2015, 08:09 PM
- 300TDI engine or newer generation Defender engine
It's heavy and weak. The TD5 was loathed by simpletons, but proved to be the best diesel Land Rover ever produced. Still, the Rover V8 is superior in every way. It's not only lighter, which makes everything better, it's also more powerful. Although it uses more fuel per mile, at current prices in the US, the total cost to acquire and operate a diesel would be far higher than a Rover V8. The V8 is also much quieter and more pleasant. Furthermore, Land Rovers, especially Series, were traditionally petrol-fueled (gasoline). Traditionally speaking, diesels are un-Land-Rover-like. The early diesels didn't come until after nearly 10 years of Series production, and then they were awful and despised. It had about the same power and torque as some motorcycles. The 4 cylinder petrol engine had 50% more power. The V8, when it came along, had more than double the power of the 4 cylinder petrol engine, and weighed less. There was certainly no comparison to the diesel pig. Land Rover diesels continued to suck all the way until perhaps the 200TDI. That was 1989. So the whole concept of Land Rovers being any good with a diesel engine is entirely a modern one that comes from the era where Land Rover had committed to all the turns you believe were mistakes, and a diesel-powered Land Rover is antithetical to your concept of Land Rover's glory.
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
These are all found on the Defender which you could purchase. But in the case of the brakes, the D90 has better brakes than the D1.
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
Introduced with the Range Rover Classic you think was a mistake. It was in fact so good that Land Rover decided to pop the Series bodies onto what was essentially a Range Rover Classic chassis and call it the 90 and 110, which were later called "Defender."
- Aftermarket Defender interior seats
- Aftermarket Defender dash
- Aftermarket Defender center console
Which are essentially provided for the monied elite that pay six figures for a Defender and think it should come with something nicer than the vinyl bench for that price. Your humble, working class envy of the rich is showing.
- Discovery 2 or RRC heating system
because everyone loves the RRC's blower experience
- Heated front and rear windshields
another RRC innovation
By the way, the Series III was considered by many to be a cheapening of the Series line. For example, they switched the previously iconic metal grill to a crappy plastic one. They did many similar things to make the Series III cheaper to produce, and the level of quality was down across the board compared to earlier models. While some things can be considered "progress," don't forget that much of progress is finding ways to make something at lower cost and higher profit to the manufacturer. For the end-user, some progress is backwards.
It's heavy and weak. The TD5 was loathed by simpletons, but proved to be the best diesel Land Rover ever produced. Still, the Rover V8 is superior in every way. It's not only lighter, which makes everything better, it's also more powerful. Although it uses more fuel per mile, at current prices in the US, the total cost to acquire and operate a diesel would be far higher than a Rover V8. The V8 is also much quieter and more pleasant. Furthermore, Land Rovers, especially Series, were traditionally petrol-fueled (gasoline). Traditionally speaking, diesels are un-Land-Rover-like. The early diesels didn't come until after nearly 10 years of Series production, and then they were awful and despised. It had about the same power and torque as some motorcycles. The 4 cylinder petrol engine had 50% more power. The V8, when it came along, had more than double the power of the 4 cylinder petrol engine, and weighed less. There was certainly no comparison to the diesel pig. Land Rover diesels continued to suck all the way until perhaps the 200TDI. That was 1989. So the whole concept of Land Rovers being any good with a diesel engine is entirely a modern one that comes from the era where Land Rover had committed to all the turns you believe were mistakes, and a diesel-powered Land Rover is antithetical to your concept of Land Rover's glory.
- Discovery 1 automatic transmission and transfer case
- Discovery 1 drivetrain system and axles
- Discovery 1 or RRC brake system
These are all found on the Defender which you could purchase. But in the case of the brakes, the D90 has better brakes than the D1.
- 3" heavy duty coil spring suspension
Introduced with the Range Rover Classic you think was a mistake. It was in fact so good that Land Rover decided to pop the Series bodies onto what was essentially a Range Rover Classic chassis and call it the 90 and 110, which were later called "Defender."
- Aftermarket Defender interior seats
- Aftermarket Defender dash
- Aftermarket Defender center console
Which are essentially provided for the monied elite that pay six figures for a Defender and think it should come with something nicer than the vinyl bench for that price. Your humble, working class envy of the rich is showing.
- Discovery 2 or RRC heating system
because everyone loves the RRC's blower experience
- Heated front and rear windshields
another RRC innovation
By the way, the Series III was considered by many to be a cheapening of the Series line. For example, they switched the previously iconic metal grill to a crappy plastic one. They did many similar things to make the Series III cheaper to produce, and the level of quality was down across the board compared to earlier models. While some things can be considered "progress," don't forget that much of progress is finding ways to make something at lower cost and higher profit to the manufacturer. For the end-user, some progress is backwards.
Thanks for the useful input! My interest in the Series and Defender models is new and unexpected. Never used to like old classic vehicles. So admittedly I do not know very much about these classics, but Im eager to learn about them! A fellow forum member recently did a petro to diesel conversion in his Disco 1. Apparently Rovers North offers a 300TDI kit for around $7,500 which includes a used 300TDI engine and most of the parts needed for the conversion. I dont know the guy personally but I doubt his wallet is as big as some folks who drop $$$$$$ into their vehicle restoration/conversion projects. Yet hes successfully completed (or about to complete) the conversion. Solving the gas Crisis - 95 Discovery I - Expedition Portal
Still further I know a guy who put a 73 series 3 on a RRC chassis (GDE #1 actually) built injected 3.9 auto lt230. 4.75 series pegged diffs. Gbr 24 spline shaft TT front and rear. RRC brakes. He said with 37s the truck did 80mph easily!
Hearing stories like this from others has intrigued and inspired me to tackle my own interests with Rovers. Im not completely against the use of computers in my vehicles and I was never implying as much, just saying I dont want everything in the truck to be dependent on computers. There has to be a fine line.
Right now I need to figure out the cheapest way to embark on a project like this. It begins with research on all the classic models and how they differed from eachother. I hear people always talking about how the Discovery 1 is essentially a Defender with different sheet metal body design etc. So to me it made sense to combine the workings of a Discovery 1 with the frame and body shell of a Series. I remain open minded to yours and other peoples suggestions however.
As for my preference for the Series III. Without much knowledge of these vehicles I half assumed that progress and time would have made the Series III better in most every respect vs the previous 2 versions. I also really like the Series III front end as it most closely resembles a Defender. I did read about the plastic grille though, but I bet you could probably swap it out for a metal one from a Series II?
As for the heating. A couple people implied that the heating system in the RRC was much better than the system used in Series and older Defender models. Plus I rationalized that since the RRC is closest in age to the Series III that perhaps the retrofitting would be similar or less complicated vs retrofitting a heating system from a much newer model such as the Discovery 1/2.
Very interesting info about Land Rover diesels. I never payed much attention to the early engines used back then but I admit I did assume most all classic Rovers had some form of a diesel engine. Part of the reason I assumed as much was because it seems like most vehicles in the UK and Europe use diesels. My interest in the 300TDI and the TD5 stems from watching to many Top Gear and other British programs.... alot of those folks seem to really like those engines and some people imply that both diesel engines (300TDI and TD5) are still more reliable than the aging Rover V8. Plus my understanding is that though underpowered and not as fast, the diesels get better MPG and can tow alot heavier loads than the petrol Rover V8 powered Rovers. Is this true?
As for interior options. Remember that for most of my life Ive never been a fan of classic vehicles, partly because the interiors were so plain, un-insulated, loud and the seats seemed very uncomfortable in most classic vehicles. Furthermore many classics dont have head or arm rests. To me comfort is very important. I dream of embarking on many adventures with my vehicle/s and that means Ill be stuck in the same seat for hours, days, weeks. If its a uncomfortable seat then I will not be able to enjoy the journey as much. Im not looking for leather interior but just something comfortable, black and more modern looking. Rovers North sells some nice looking yet simple interior update kits. Maybe I could use P38 cloth seats as an alternative? Im open minded to this. I know ArmyRover went to a scrap yard and picked some random comfy seats and threw them in his Defender. That works but myself I dont like putting non Rover things like that in my vehicle. As for the heated front and rear windshields and the aftermarket heated seats, well I prefer living in cold environments. So a little extra heat to defrost the windows quicker and to keep my little fanny nice and warm while I wait for the old clunker to warm up seems legit and practical.
I used to want a 2008 LR3 HSE, (still do I guess) but I feel like I would enjoy a custom to me project much more. And for the same price I feel like I could have a badass Series III hybrid. With the best features from the Disco 1/RRC combined with the styling I love about the Series III/Defender. Again I wish I could get myself a Defender but I refuse to pay an upwards of $50,000-$90,000 for a classic truck....... even if I had the money it just would not be worth it in my opinion.
So does the Series III and the RRC share the same chassis or something? I was hoping to find a beat up "rust free" Series III, remove the shell, get a cheap galvanizing job, modify the chassis, swap out the engine and drive-train, inspect and clean up the shell then refit everything and be on my way.
#9
01-14-2015, 08:52 PM
Super Moderator
That's the thing for your wish list you will be spending $40-50k.
The reason the heat sucks in series/defenders isn't the heater for the most part its the lack of insulation and air gaps big enough for birds to fly in for a spot of tea.
Diesel vs gas mpg are better on diesel but they really aren't any more powerful than the v8. Google the output of both.
It wasn't as simple as just flopping my fat butt in a seat and saying that'll do, there is a lot of measuring followed by fabrication followed by "well that didn't work quite right" followed by more fabrication.... I'm about to pull those seats and put a different set in it since I don't like the way the rear seat was working out. Read that as a bit of time and money wasted.
The reason the heat sucks in series/defenders isn't the heater for the most part its the lack of insulation and air gaps big enough for birds to fly in for a spot of tea.
Diesel vs gas mpg are better on diesel but they really aren't any more powerful than the v8. Google the output of both.
It wasn't as simple as just flopping my fat butt in a seat and saying that'll do, there is a lot of measuring followed by fabrication followed by "well that didn't work quite right" followed by more fabrication.... I'm about to pull those seats and put a different set in it since I don't like the way the rear seat was working out. Read that as a bit of time and money wasted.
#10
01-14-2015, 09:21 PM
That's the thing for your wish list you will be spending $40-50k.
The reason the heat sucks in series/defenders isn't the heater for the most part its the lack of insulation and air gaps big enough for birds to fly in for a spot of tea.
Diesel vs gas mpg are better on diesel but they really aren't any more powerful than the v8. Google the output of both.
It wasn't as simple as just flopping my fat butt in a seat and saying that'll do, there is a lot of measuring followed by fabrication followed by "well that didn't work quite right" followed by more fabrication.... I'm about to pull those seats and put a different set in it since I don't like the way the rear seat was working out. Read that as a bit of time and money wasted.
The reason the heat sucks in series/defenders isn't the heater for the most part its the lack of insulation and air gaps big enough for birds to fly in for a spot of tea.
Diesel vs gas mpg are better on diesel but they really aren't any more powerful than the v8. Google the output of both.
It wasn't as simple as just flopping my fat butt in a seat and saying that'll do, there is a lot of measuring followed by fabrication followed by "well that didn't work quite right" followed by more fabrication.... I'm about to pull those seats and put a different set in it since I don't like the way the rear seat was working out. Read that as a bit of time and money wasted.
Im not trying to doubt you but why do you feel like a project like this would cost $40,$50,000? Again I feel like if I got a donor Disco 1, and just swapped over most all the used parts, and paid someone to do some welding and make me some minor fabrications, then it would cost alot less vs buying a bunch of new parts and putting those in. Am I missing something here? Im still learning so Im honestly just trying to understand things is all. I would not count this project as a 100% restoration. Just retrofitting.