Argue amongst yourselves.

 

They aren't wrong in their assessment that the new bronco is the new defender, and the new 90/110 is not. The issue is that Ford is still a utilitarian manufacturer. Land Rover left that market years ago, when they went upmarket. The defender is far too nice to be a proper defender, AND THATS FINE BY ME. Anyone who has spent any time in the old Defender, can report how famously uncomfortable it is. If I wanted a rustic off roading experience, the bronco is the way to go. That market is incredibly small though, and honestly, its tough to justify a 67k bronco, when you can build a proper rig, with proper chops, for less. As for the 90/110, it speaks to the off roading segment that may want a bit of apres ski in addition to the trails.

 

It would be like leaving your wife because, despite being great to look at, she's stubborn, abusive, loud, and she leaks gas. Then you find a better one and complain that you don't get your regular beatings anymore.

 

LOL, yeah, JLR would absolutely HATE to be stuck with the following sales record for the Defender since 2001, which FCA has been saddled with. Especially the bit from 2007-2017, representing the JK series Wrangler, and showing near constant growth (excluding Financial Crisis) for a decade. I can’t think of another vehicle out there that doesn’t start to decline in sales the minute the supply pipeline fills up after the first year, and yet the JK sold 190k units its last full year compared to 119k its first (extra long) sales year.

Point being, even with escalating prices that put loaded Rubicons up in the $60s now, Jeep still sells a crap-ton of what remains probably the crudest, most rustic off-road vehicle sold in the US. And Bronco just adds to that market, at least for now, rather than segmenting it and stealing Jeep sales. A market JLR got out of just when it started to heat up. Oh, and these figures are US only; there’s also sizeable Canadian market share, and the Jeep is one of the few American vehicles that sells substantial numbers in the rest of the world.

2020….201,311
2019….228,042
2018….240,032 (partial year of JK sales, partial JL sales)
2017….190,522
2016….191,788
2015….202,702
2014….175,328
2013….155,502
2012….141,669
2011….122,460
2010….94,310
2009….82,044 (Financial Crisis)
2008….84615 (Financial Crisis)
2007…119,243 (launch of JK, including first 4-door Wrangler)
2006….80,271
2005….79,017
2004….77,550
2003….70,093
2002….64,351
2001….68,830

Source

 

yes, how many of these sales are in part because of the jeep community, the flag waving, and the existing after market support?


Again, the jeep is incredibly popular, and very fun to have. JLR made a choice a few years ago, and that isnt a market they wanted to pursue. Which is why the new defender is the way it is.

 

From a c-suite standpoint, where does Jeep go from here though?

Once Ford figures out how to build more than 50 Broncos during a shift, it seems like they are set up to hit pretty hard.

Bronco is unusually slotted to take buyers from a large swath of the Jeep line. Rivian and Defender will pull from Jeep's upper tier offerings. If the Fiskar Ocean beach cruiser becomes a reality, it gets even more challenging.

They can't have their lower tier junk-boxes on the slowest seller lists and then lose the higher margin sales.

Volume covers up a lot of evils in business and I'm wondering what happens if they stagger.

Does the segment grow enough to sustain Jeep's numbers?

 

This thread is why I'm addicted to this forum. I think I've laughed almost continuously since I opened it up and started scrolling. I used to joke that the ergo-dynamics of my Defender/Series was designed for a crash test dummy and not my body. The only option I had was how I would lean. They absolutely drove like a tractor. I would say that it would only go 60-mph, but it would drive 60 on anything!

And on the most recent postings, I think Bronco will steal more sales from Jeep than the Defender. If at full production, they are definitely different market targets. I think most would agree that Defender is luxury/exotic while the Bronco/Jeep is much more for the masses. That alone dictates how many after-market companies would even want to enter it. A friend of mine had a Hummer (full Hummer, not a 1/2 hummer) years ago. He complained no one really made anything. Not that anything extra was needed, but it was a much smaller market.

 

Meh.

It was good entertainment, though like with all of these things I think the hosts are often stretching to find talking points.

Nothing they really did (other than maybe the track times and weight measurements) were that definitive. And even then what does it matter.

I know in the end that they just compared whatever the hell was available in the press fleet, but I still think it is weird to pretend to test capabilities and not make them as close as possible (i.e. the lack of the locking diff).

And then they make silly comments about say the ease of folding the Bronco seats ... yeah, that's how easy it is to fold the Defenders if you've got the mechanical seats too (that's why we opted for them).

It's not useless information, but it's incomplete and just a small part of the big picture.

As for the attempt at a controversial or sound byte conclusion - MEH - I tune out when anyone starts to claim what the real, genuine, bla bla bla - the new Defender IS the new Defender. To say the Bronco is closer to the old Defender is simply to admit it's a bit more down-market, crude etc.

The NEW Defender is exactly what JLR wants it to be, utilitarian and VERY capable with excellent comfort/on-road manners. That's exactly why we bought it and she drives it. That doesn't make it better or worse than my relatively primitive and much less comfortable by comparison Wrangler, but that's why I DRIVE IT INSTEAD.

Which leads me to this:


I think that comparison based mostly on market share is missing the point.

JLR couldn't keep up with production at the Wrangler or Bronco level and that's ok. They probably don't want to.

And the reason they don't have to is that same difference they noted in materials, price, comfort etc.

Also there may be $60k Rubis in those sales numbers, but there are probably WAY MORE $30k Sports. WAY MORE.

 

Those of you replying to my thread missed the point — I was specifically responding to Heliochrome’s assertion that “…that market is incredibly small.” There may be (and no doubt are) many reasons JLR decided to not play in the former Defender’s market, but the market being “incredibly small” isn’t one of them. Consistently selling 200,000 units a year in the US alone, just for Wranglers, and during a time when Toyota was getting a chunk with the FJ Cruiser, not to mention the various hardcore versions of Forerunner, is a pipe dream for JLR. In fact, they were happily playing in the US market with the Defender 90 back when Jeep was only selling 60-80,000 units a year.

And posting “Jeep Compass” sales woes doesn’t have anything — I mean anything — to do with Wrangler’s volume and profitability. That’s like tying Defender to the Velar’s sales.

Cheers!

 

Even Ford's own marketing guy likes the Defender 90.