Except that JD powers is historically a dismal source for actual reliability data since they treat everything equally from a powertrain failure to trouble connecting your phone to Bluetooth.

So what is the actual significance of said data? And what is the actual chance of real problems with the drivetrain over the life of the vehicle comparatively?

I'm going to spend more time enjoying and less time worrying.


EDIT - PS - nice personal attack you slipped in there. Really bolsters your perspective.

 

Decades ago I used to subscribe to Consumer Reports, back when magazines were a thing. I dutifully participated every year in their auto-owners survey on whatever car(s) I had that were new enough to be of interest to them, and I always consulted the listings when I prepared to buy, even though I was a car-guy through and through. I wasn’t looking for “what’s the most reliable vehicle out there” but rather “does the sportscar or sports sedan I want to buy have what I deem to be acceptable reliability?”

Anyway, the data collection wasn’t perfect, but I think it was the best we’ve ever gotten over a broad range of vehicles available in the US. It wasn’t perfect because people who are self-selecting whether to participate or not tend to do so most heavily in the following order: 1) if they’ve had a particularly bad experience, and then 2) a particularly good experience, and finally, least likely to participate if they’ve had 3) a normal, as-expected average experience. But the nature of the polls was such that very specific data could be collected about all the different systems of the car and compiled into data charts that showed trends. So when you reviewed you might discover that 4-year-old Nissan Sentra’s seem to be overall pretty reliable but they are above average in clutch replacements, and below average in number of cooling system repairs. that sort of thing.

Anyway, back then (20 years ago and more) the presence of Land Rover products are the only thing that kept the Chrysler collection from holding all the bottom reliability spots. Electrical, engine, cooling, electronics — virtually every major important system was statistically way below even GM and Ford, much less the Japanese. I had friends with RRs to provide me with nightmarish anecdotal stories, no friends with RRs to refute them, and Consumer Reports to statistically verify that what my friends were experiencing was being felt by owners to a larger degree than literally any other make of vehicle sold in the US.

Now… is that still true? I don’t know. The anecdotes persist, but there could be a touch of confirmation bias inherent in that, i.e. owners are familiar with LR’s bad reputation and tend to be looking for things to go south, thereby focusing on any little thing that goes wrong, just like Lexus owners are expecting their cars to be flawless and perhaps tend to sweep little glitches under the rug when they occur so they don’t have to face up to the real experience of owning a mechanical and electronic vehicle, which is that things often fail.

But I suspect that if somebody could lay hands on CR’s current automotive rankings we could get the best look at decent data that’s out there. It won’t be perfect, but it’s likely to be skewed equally for the various brands, such that if you’re near the top or near the bottom it’s a relevant position to be in as far as the likely ownership experience will be for the majority of owners. It should also tend to report which areas of the truck’s ownership are likely to be problematic, rather than, as KevM points out, equating an Auto Stop/Start that doesn’t work with a total engine failure in the outback. Even if the Defender isn’t yet included in their annual surveys because of too few of them being in the US yet, we could learn things from all the other LR and RR products that have been out for a few years, since they tend to use nearly identical systems in many cases, sourced from the same vendors and designed by largely the same engineering teams.

Does anyone have access to this subscription data? I’d love to learn that LR has quietly migrated up the ranks from the cellar to a more respectable position in recent years.

 

To echo some of the other sentiments on here - the CR data isn't as relevant today as it once was. The majority of complaints for modern cars seem to stem from 'convenience features' vs mechanical failures (not that those don't exist as well). I've read more complaints about people upset that their key fob isn't recognized from far enough away when opening the car than actual mechanical failures. Just for comparison - my wifes G550 is easily the most undependable car we've ever had. Every three months there is something new going wrong. We've had:

- 'Normal' window actuator failures
- At one point the rear door lock was stuck so my son had to crawl out the other side for weeks (they had to take apart the door from the inside to fix)
- Central command computer module failure causing an constant static sound in the speakers
- Valve sensor failure
- Rust replaced/repainted around the windshield
- Steering column - this one is the best. While in for a routine service my wife mentioned that she would feel a small 'clunk' when making a sharp right turn into our garage. They were able to trace it back to the assisted steering system, found a slight metal debris in the fluid so they replaced the gears and everything the fluid cycled through for a grand total of $17,000

Should mention that this is all within the last 10-15,000 miles that we've owned it (currently 65,000 miles on the odometer). And G's a lauded for their tank-like dependability. I knew going into the ownership some of the potential problems, thankfully we have an extended warranty and the dealer has bee wonderful to work with.

Just for fun I've also had:
996 Porsche with an IMS failure - I would have rather told my wife about an illegitimate child than explain why we needed a new engine
Toyota Sequoia with a timing failure at 65,000 miles necessitating an engine rebuild
One of our Mercedes loaners had an engine failure and needed a new engine (only 300 miles on the odometer)

The TFL guys would have a field day with some of these, just imagine the overly dramatized episodes! So no, I don't take the CR reports too seriously. We've also had a few Mini Coopers and had zero issues with them as well, our Alfa Romeo 4C is perfect and the Lotus Elise was wonderful. Things happen, stop worrying about what could possibly go wrong and just enjoy the drive.

 

This is a personal opinion and, so, not meant to inflame - but I believe anyone who is shocked about the Defender's quality is likely under-informed before purchasing. Especially this "late in the game". I get there were no stats (other than legacy Land Rover impressions) for the 2020 MY crowd. But anyone purchasing a 2022MY and certainly 2023 should not be surprised. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence (which could be a demographic skew, but I don't think so) and empirical evidence (such as the JD Power post by @CombatNinja ) for those willing to do the objective research before purchase. It is a sketchy vehicle and always has been. This is NOT a quality construction no matter how close in price it comes to other luxury brands. As a previous owner of a Series IIa and "old school" Defender, I have been baptized in the cult of "Lucas: Prince of Darkness". While Lucas has had many names (Beelzebub comes to mind), he has been reincarnated in the L663 electrical system and other major component lines. (And that's a fact! /s)

EDIT: I really think the consensus (at least on this Forum) is that most folks would do ANYTHING to avoid a trip to the Dealer. Well, this is all you have to see to recognize it as empirical.

 

Oh good, you're still here.

You need a hobby other than trolling the forum of a vehicle you don't own.

 

In 5 months I haven't had any issues. OK - once my Defender went into "normal height only" with the air suspension, but that reset itself at the next restart and never returned (it's been months). I like to think this might be related to JLR's CEO focusing on improving quality, but maybe I'm lucky (though that's not usually the case). I was actually going to get a Ford Bronco, but those have had plenty of issues recently - engine failures, a number of odd 4x4 failures that may just be software or sensors but are still a problem, and top issues. Every brand runs into issues and I think it's even worse with the supply chain problems. I think I could name at least one issue every major brand has had recently, if pushed.

 

@D-Fens - I too am (knock on wood trim) one of the folks who have had NO problems with their Defender. I've had mine for ~10 mos and have gone on several long, loving and enjoyable trips. NO issues. I continue to enjoy complaining about what they dropped on my order, but the performance of the vehicle is exactly what I wished for. My point is not that I don't absolutely LOVE my vehicle, the point is that I expect problems and anyone purchasing it should as well. I believe that there is a bias in the ratings. Lexus are, admittedly, absolutely well engineered, constructed and delivered vehicles. But I suspect the average Kia owner is expecting some issues, so doesn't report them, while the average Land Rover owner has paid an extortionary amount and is expecting high quality. As a result, I suspect the average Land Rover owner is "sensitive" to problems. All I'm trying to say is, expect quality problems.

 

But the average Porsche owner has also paid a lot of money, including a huge “Porsche tax“, and yet their experience as reported in the various JD power reports, is extremely positive relative to other brands. I don’t think it’s a matter of I paid a lot and therefore expect perfection and the Kia owner didn’t and doesn’t. The Kia owner often paid a good deal more as a percentage of their income or disposable income than the Land Rover owner. In other words, problems hurt them more than they do most Land Rover owners.

 

Yeah my points are that these things are filled with:

* Confirmation bias
* self-selecting bias
* Too high level or non-comparable "empirical data"

To be really worth anything.

Anytime you buy a complicated manufactured machine you run the risk of failures.

Yes, it is entirely possible this "data" shows that you are more likely to run into some problems with one brand than another.

But there's very little usable data that really tells us the chances that any one of us will experience expensive failures, or repeated failures, or be stranded etc.

There's a difference for sure, but statistically significant? We can't say, and the shorter the ownership (in years and miles) the less likely it is relevant.

I struggle to keep a vehicle more than 5-6 years, and my wife strives for 10.... to us that's about 100k or less then.

My personal anecdotes (besides a lifetime in the repair/service industry) include owning and having zero to very few problems with a number of brands that are considered problem children. I've also owned/observed some stellar brands that had way too many failures.

So YMMV - but like I said, I don't put much stock into the data, because the data isn't very useful. So I'm gonna just drive it and enjoy it like I have most everything I've owned. And if at some point it doesn't provide joy (or at least utility) it'll be gone.

 

Since we're giving "lifetime anecdotes", my 42 cars owned (I'm in my 50s) have resulted in experiences nearly perfectly aligned with brand expectations as shown by the various reliability reports.

5 Hondas, 5 Mazdas, 3 Nissans have all been exemplary (talking about during first 100k of ownership; I rarely go past that.)

4 Jeeps have been abysmal on average, though one of my high-mileage 92 Cherokees was very reliable (I bought both of them at 100k and drove till about 150k).

Many GMs have been sorta average; some large but not catastrophic problems, some nagging little things.

5 Porsche sportscars (haven't had a sedan or SUV) have been exemplary, though only driven to 45,000 at the most so far.

2 Audis were problematic and gotten rid of at the end of warranty, though to be fair those were both in the 90s.

1 BMW was a total POS

1 MINI was very reliable

2 Benzes have been perfect

1 Sterling (Rover sedan) was the worst car ever built by the hand of man, and that car was literally a first gen Acura Legend gussied up with Connolly leather and Wilton carpets and burled walnut and new electronics at the Rover factory. (I had a same-year Legend next and it was perfect.) All the problems were electrical.

And so on. So cars the polls say are statistically bad, have been bad (except for my MINI). Cars that are statistically middle of the road have behaved that way for me. And cars that are supposed to be pretty trouble free have done exactly that in my possession.

So I tend to "believe" that the data is fairly accurate across a large enough sample.

And of course nobody thinks that a statistically "bad" or "good" report card in the data-gathering world means a guarantee that your or my particular car will be "bad" or "good." Even bad cars are much better than bad ones were 40 years ago. But today's problems can be maddening to diagnose and very time-consuming to repair because so much is hidden in the black boxes.