I have a defender 110X and it has "AUTO" mode. in snow and 'icy" conditions is there
#21
11-20-2022 | 06:05 PM
Mudding
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 151
Likes: 114
From: Chardonia
#22
11-21-2022 | 10:59 AM
Pro Wrench
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 1,405
From: Atlanta, GA
It is great to see the interest in maximizing the capability of the 4WD system in our new Defenders !
I read in this thread many of the misconceptions and mistakes I suffered during my experimental learning (from 2000 to 2022) of how to most effectively think about JLR's electronic 4WD system. I bought my first LR4 in 2010 and my Evoque in 2016, and then my 2020 Defender, solely to understand and use what JLR had been creating since the time of the Freelander and the Discovery 1 (late 1980s to today).
A few comments directly relating to Grass / gravel / snow mode regarding some points raised within this thread:
a) Grass/ gravel/ snow mode: This really is to be thought of as "a hard surface beneath a slippery yet still tractable surface" mode. My rule of thumb is that: the thickness of the top surface must be no more than 3 to 4 inches; to avoid damage to grass, it should be turned on whenever on grass; and to drive in a controlled fashion it should always be used on gravel. This is true in either LO or HI range. DSC should always be left on in this mode, as something really bad has happened if DSC activates. There is no ICE mode -- ICE is not tractable.
The primary logic engaged in GGS mode is that zero wheel spinning is to occur -- so the gear selected has very low torque, the throttle response is very slow, the suspension is compliant, and the steering is not precise. The advantage of selecting this mode instead of AUTO is that wheel spin is NOT necessary to provide the computer a basis upon which to act.
I have torn up many a surface which the owner (many times my relations) were most upset to see. Disciplined use of GGS mode eliminates that occurrence.
I am getting called away by such relations presently, so I will cease my typing for now. Enjoy !!
I read in this thread many of the misconceptions and mistakes I suffered during my experimental learning (from 2000 to 2022) of how to most effectively think about JLR's electronic 4WD system. I bought my first LR4 in 2010 and my Evoque in 2016, and then my 2020 Defender, solely to understand and use what JLR had been creating since the time of the Freelander and the Discovery 1 (late 1980s to today).
A few comments directly relating to Grass / gravel / snow mode regarding some points raised within this thread:
a) Grass/ gravel/ snow mode: This really is to be thought of as "a hard surface beneath a slippery yet still tractable surface" mode. My rule of thumb is that: the thickness of the top surface must be no more than 3 to 4 inches; to avoid damage to grass, it should be turned on whenever on grass; and to drive in a controlled fashion it should always be used on gravel. This is true in either LO or HI range. DSC should always be left on in this mode, as something really bad has happened if DSC activates. There is no ICE mode -- ICE is not tractable.
The primary logic engaged in GGS mode is that zero wheel spinning is to occur -- so the gear selected has very low torque, the throttle response is very slow, the suspension is compliant, and the steering is not precise. The advantage of selecting this mode instead of AUTO is that wheel spin is NOT necessary to provide the computer a basis upon which to act.
I have torn up many a surface which the owner (many times my relations) were most upset to see. Disciplined use of GGS mode eliminates that occurrence.
I am getting called away by such relations presently, so I will cease my typing for now. Enjoy !!
I first got to really explore this defender's capability on a variety of surfaces this summer in Colorado mountains for a couple of weeks. (Well, to be fair I had a full-day course at the LR Experience Asheville prior to that.) I have a lot to learn still as far as being retrained from my Jeep days, but both I and my companion on this trip were astonished at how the Defender could ease away from a stop on a loose gravel or sand-and-scree trail surface, at a steep incline, a situation where my heavily modified Wrangler on 37s would have been able to easily get going, but not without slinging a LOT of gravel behind me in the process. The LR in GGS mode, as Trio says, just refused to spin a wheel from the beginning, whereas in Auto it could accomplish the same thing eventually, but it has to spin a bit first before it knows what sort of surface it's on.
It's funny, though, you've got to get used to GGS when used in low-traction situations, because it's like the computer is only taking suggestions from you as to the acceleration, braking and steering inputs. "Yes, NoGaBiker, I see that you want to get going now. Thank you for the suggestion that we take off quickly, but I will actually only give you as much throttle as can be employed without wheelspin. But if it makes you feel better, hey, knock yourself out with the loud pedal!"
#23
11-23-2022 | 06:24 PM
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 700
A thought on driving the Defender off - road with manual shifting: It is not needed. I have ceased attempting it because I cannot perform as well as the computer.
I performed a series of experiments thinking to add a little more extra torque here and there, but the reality is that computerized logic synchronization of throttle response, suspension set up, steering response, individualized braking action and differential aggression -- all set with the computerized transmission shifts -- results in a more smooth and efficient driving experience than from my futzing.
In reality, my holding down the revs in sand mode (by changing gears) -- which I use when the lack of track firmness requires greater than 3 to 4 inches of sand being pushed out of the way of the vehicle's tires -- has created in the vehicle excessive yaw cycling and unsteady forward velocity. It is much more effective to let the vehicle do this on its own.
As a reminder, when in sand mode as described above, I do always turn OFF DSC -- unless I am headed down or up a steep or long slope -- for it's better safe than sorry if the Yawing starts to get unruly, gets sideways, and rolls the vehicle.
Enjoy !
I performed a series of experiments thinking to add a little more extra torque here and there, but the reality is that computerized logic synchronization of throttle response, suspension set up, steering response, individualized braking action and differential aggression -- all set with the computerized transmission shifts -- results in a more smooth and efficient driving experience than from my futzing.
In reality, my holding down the revs in sand mode (by changing gears) -- which I use when the lack of track firmness requires greater than 3 to 4 inches of sand being pushed out of the way of the vehicle's tires -- has created in the vehicle excessive yaw cycling and unsteady forward velocity. It is much more effective to let the vehicle do this on its own.
As a reminder, when in sand mode as described above, I do always turn OFF DSC -- unless I am headed down or up a steep or long slope -- for it's better safe than sorry if the Yawing starts to get unruly, gets sideways, and rolls the vehicle.
Enjoy !
#24
11-24-2022 | 07:39 AM
Rock Crawling
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 447
Likes: 268
Fwiw, hakkeleptta’s and Blizzaks are rated for ice. Studs of course are even better, but studless snow tires will offer some traction on ice. Three peak AT’s and all seasons will offer none. Ice is still going to cause a loss of traction at some point, but ice rated snows will hold a bit longer.
also my LR instructor taught us to use manual gear selection all the time off road unless we were using atpc or descent control, and he still preferred just using low 1 for short steep descents vs descent control. They instructed to only turn off DSC if stuck and then turn it back on immediately. Same as in the iguide. They advised to never proceed with it off even on a beach.
also my LR instructor taught us to use manual gear selection all the time off road unless we were using atpc or descent control, and he still preferred just using low 1 for short steep descents vs descent control. They instructed to only turn off DSC if stuck and then turn it back on immediately. Same as in the iguide. They advised to never proceed with it off even on a beach.
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PaulLR (11-24-2022)
#25
11-24-2022 | 08:33 AM
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 977
Likes: 690
From: Boston, MA
Fwiw, hakkeleptta’s and Blizzaks are rated for ice. Studs of course are even better, but studless snow tires will offer some traction on ice. Three peak AT’s and all seasons will offer none. Ice is still going to cause a loss of traction at some point, but ice rated snows will hold a bit longer.
#26
11-24-2022 | 09:19 AM
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 977
Likes: 690
From: Boston, MA
#27
11-24-2022 | 09:26 AM
Rock Crawling
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 447
Likes: 268
I wouldn’t go quite that far. I got stuck pulling a 2K lb trailer on some soft cape lookout sand after airing down to 30psi, and was able to get free only after airing down to 20 on vehicle and trailer. Defender TC is good, but not that good. I don’t air down anywhere else though. Just on the beach.
#28
11-28-2022 | 08:23 AM
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,057
Likes: 700
Fwiw, hakkeleptta’s and Blizzaks are rated for ice. Studs of course are even better, but studless snow tires will offer some traction on ice. Three peak AT’s and all seasons will offer none. Ice is still going to cause a loss of traction at some point, but ice rated snows will hold a bit longer.
also my LR instructor taught us to use manual gear selection all the time off road unless we were using atpc or descent control, and he still preferred just using low 1 for short steep descents vs descent control. They instructed to only turn off DSC if stuck and then turn it back on immediately. Same as in the iguide. They advised to never proceed with it off even on a beach.
also my LR instructor taught us to use manual gear selection all the time off road unless we were using atpc or descent control, and he still preferred just using low 1 for short steep descents vs descent control. They instructed to only turn off DSC if stuck and then turn it back on immediately. Same as in the iguide. They advised to never proceed with it off even on a beach.
Yes, I agree that manually going beyond 1st gear does confuse the atpc and descent control. As well, the new descent control (the one which enables the driver to set the speed) is a significant complication versus the previous single, pre-set, speed version -- but such speed variation has its uses. So, I do agree with starting out with what the instructor suggested.
I found when expanding the use of the control logic to include atpc and adjustable descent control, the vehicle really needs to not have the driver interfere with gear shifts -- in fact that the logic of gear shifting appears to be sensitive to one's atpc setting, as well as the terrain control selection.
Relative to DSC, I agree it should be always on when not traversing the ground in a momentum conservation mode (deep sand, snow deeper than 4" or mud ruts) or when not in an area of safe terrain (where the vehicle could roll over if it goes sideways). May I say that momentum conservation mode in a new Defender is nothing like in an old-school Jeep or old Defender -- the velocity need not be elevated nearly as much.
The primary weakness of Auto mode is also its strength; namely that DSC cannot be turned off in Auto mode. Thus, if one tries to use Auto in momentum conservation modes on flat ground (as described above), a non-Auto mode should be selected.
This will come with experience in using the system. It took a couple of years for me to learn the reality of the logic, as it developed and evolved over the past 15 years. As a start what the instructor is saying is the way to go -- first things first.
Enjoy !!
Last edited by TrioLRowner; 11-28-2022 at 02:13 PM.
