I took to a new place in the wet and muddy mountains nearby for a couple of days to test methodically the Terrain Response 2 settings in various conditions. However, upon arrival we found (spouse and dogs) ourselves integrated within a Toyota owner's club day out in a very vertical, mud-ruts slog for several hours. They had been there before, so they nicely invited us to tag along.


The line-up mid-way up and down the mountain. I was in mud ruts, Lo range, off-road height, DSC off, hill descent control on and never above 3 mph all day, except the first 10 minutes on Auto -- before I needed momentum.

Lots of slide slipping all day -- a fellow hit a stick on his rim which lodged wood in his bead. Had to air down, clean out and air back up.

I was aired down 20 psi to 27 rear and 24 front riding on the OEM Goodyear A/Ts . Did not know the trail, so did not go lower.

The verticals were deep mud ruts up to 25 degrees above horizontal with 90 turns throughout. Something I would have not counted on my LR4 to accomplish. Wow, the Defender is a fine fine tool -- it was really really capable! The Toyotas did well, too. Only one fellow had to be winched. I almost did too, but after the 8th increase (last time attempt) in throttle application the Defender got through a really slicked up 25 degree climbing, inward cambered into a tree stump, 90 turn.

The day was a full on test of the Lucky8 Sliders. The camber of the hill and the location of the ruts ruled vehicle direction. More than a couple of slider supported pirrouettes around tree stumps and big roots were necessary. They were everything expected and more. The vehicle would have been severly damaged at the sills without them.

The vehicle's next need is a guard for the rear differential -- and some better tires (of course). On one deeply rutted section the rear diff. shaved an inch of mud off the top of the center of the track --- I avoided rocks all day for this reason.

Then we aired back up and drove very comfortably (enjoying the fully planted ride which the winch and sliders provide) for several hours to reach home !

 

Their sliders are beefy but fantastic. Glad to see you out there getting it dirty!

 

They are awesome sliders. I do hope they come out with some rear protection though. The gas tanks and rear diff need something.

Curious why you had DSC off the whole time. I know that’s how it’s often done, especially with older vehicles, but I went through a muddy day with the instructor in Asheville, and he had me leave it on the entire time. Said it’s best to only turn it off when stuck, and then turn it back on right away and let the modes do their thing. Surprised me, but it worked. He also had me keep psi high in mud so I’d cut through to solid ground underneath. We only aired down for some rocks and then aired back up for water and mud. Another surprise, but I know that’s a long standing debate when it comes to best psi for mud. Worked great in this case.

 

Yes, it is a proper point of instruction he/she provided --- as a starting point of education for you.

The reality is DSC OFF is not helpful, until it is too late to activate it (like a seatbelt). So, at the beginning of the electronic learning process, leave it ON. This is particularly important to do in coming down or up a hill of deep snow, sand or mud too quickly.

The value of DSC in off-road is to cease all vehicle movement before the vehicle spins 90 degrees to the direction of the hill and the vehicle rolls over -- like broaching in sailboat. After a few times of leaving DSC on and having it stop all forward progress (often just as you are making good progress through an obstacle ... uighh !!), you will understand the yaw rate necessary for it to activate and you will over time become familiar with the terrain and momentum necessary to cause a broach of the vehicle sufficient to cause a roll-over.

Yes, the Defender's capabilities are so good that it can get out of many momentum situations from a standing start (still one should help it a bit and back up and get a little momentum going). As slow as possible, as fast as necessary is really an accurate by-law. Sometimes slow means stopped, other times rolling in at 1 mph can help.

The other point of experience is how much and when to air down. The "momentum" conditions of deep snow, mud and sand require the tire to clear its path of its progress -- it is more about clearing away what is ahead of it than floating on top of it.

For clearing, a narrow, harder tire is better. So, one should run a narrow tire (like the stock Defender tire) and not air down much. But for this to work, there needs to be a hard. grippable surface underneath the 4 to 5 inches of top covering -- and you need to be willing and ready to apply revs. and spin the tires to do the clear out work.

If on the other hand, there is no hard surface beneath you, one needs a wider tire, fully aired down to float above the surface, generating forward momentum -- as in surfing or water skiing. For once you turn off the forward movement will need to shovel out and use a winch or the recovery boards -- just like in getting pulled out of the water while water skiing.

For rocks, the tire MUST be aired down as much as your experience, the sidewalls and your rims can endure (the risk is with very little air in the tire, you will dislodge the bead and have a flat tire -- or the tire sidewall will fail when heated -- or you will damage your rims), in order for the tire to cup itself (like you would with your hand) around the rock and pull itself over the rock.

I aired down to 24 psi front and 27 psi rear. This is a mid-amount. The minimum I do is 15 psi (many are fine with high single digit PSIs) -- for rocks for instance -- at which point I would be driving the tires all day -- working to not detach the bead.

I chose a mid amount because: a) the OEM tires of the Defender are not overly wide, b) there was deep mud, and the evil nature of the red clay in this part of the country is that the mud becomes extremely slippery when damp and out of control slippery when soaked, so I wanted enough surface area pushing (bigger contact patch) on the underlying hard surface to move the vehicle and c) I do not trust the strength of an AT OEM tire to happily carry the side wall work load all day at a lower pressure below 20 psi.

Over time, you will need to experiment with air pressures. The answer is subjective. There is no right or wrong answer -- but there are better ones to choose in certain situations ones which persons become wedded to over time, in their recurring situation.

Enjoy !!

 

Thanks! That’s very helpful. Broaching a sailboat is something I know a lot about as I race dinghies and have been there done that a few times. Too bad no DSC on my sailboat.

 

How do you like your cooler?

 

Looks like a ton of fun! Glad to hear the Defender did so well.

 

That was the neighbor's .... in a really clean FJ Cruiser.

I am not a "Toyota person", but I was very impressed with how well all the Toyota 4WD vehicles performed.

 

Reading this thread again after “Insider” said not to air down 20’s on the Defender below 32 or so, since there is little additional grip to be gained with low profile tires like these, and much to be lost in terms of puncture and pinch flat risk. Explains why my instructor kept us aired up. Too bad LR chooses not to make this clear to owners because they obviously have a different idea of what’s needed for off roading than most American off roaders who are used to larger sidewalls on smaller rims. I must say though, I’ve kept mine above 40 in some rocks and it really does do amazingly well. After watching the TFL punctures, I will take “Insider” at his word and avoid airing down unless on the beach again where I found 20 was necessary.

 

I generally drive in mud, which is similar to sand. So I air down some. Basically to never less than 25 psi and more like 28 psi or so.

I am running 18 inch wheels.

Enjoy!!