Hey all, first time here and I am a potential buyer of the new Defender in the next couple of years.

Little backstory, I have a 2 Door Wrangler Rubicon and absolutely love it, but the wife and I are looking at having a kid and it just isnt a good option for a family. Say we have a kid, get a dog, and want to do any kind of off roading/overlanding and we are really, really hurting for space. So I said hey, lets just get a four door Jeep, but I hate the four door Jeeps. Its not a real Jeep. They just do not have the charm of the two doors, but if we keep the two door AND have a four door we are paying 55k plus for all of the same upsides and downsides as the two door, just with a little more room and a general dislike for the car in and of itself.

So I started poking around and stumbled on just how capable the Defender is as an off road vehicle. Honestly I did not realize how capable it was, I figured yeah, sure it can go some places, but its not going to be a Jeep, but honestly, everything stock it seems just as capable as a Rubicon Wrangler, if not more. Not to mention it is going to be way more comfortable and safe. It is more than capable of tackling anything we would want to do as a family (Im not taking a 2 year old on some ridiculous rock crawling trails where I might tip the thing over). So I wanted to get people's impression of the Defender overall, obv people are going to be bias as this is a Defender forum, but still. My idea now is to keep the 2dr Jeep for really hardcore off roading and have the Defender as the family off road/overland/camping vehicle.

The big thing I want impressions on is maintenance, reliability, and resale value. I have owned JLR vehicles before and just got eaten alive on depreciation to the point I really do not want to go through that again, its just throwing money away. That is the big draw to the Jeep is that I can literally sell my Jeep right now for exactly what I paid for it two years later. I do not need that level of value retention, but I really do not want to buy another JLR vehicle and lose 70%+ on it over five years.

An additional advantage of the Wrangler is the level of aftermarket support. The 2dr doesnt have that great of support, but the 4dr has a ridiculous number of options aftermarket. What is the Defender aftermarket like? Is it affordable? Are there plenty of options for things like lift kits and winch setups and bumpers and so on? Would I be able to put 35s or 37s on fairly easily? Is that even necessary like it is on a Jeep?

Any insights or impressions are appreciated and welcome. Also, sorry for sounding like some Jeep fanboy, Im not. I love my Wrangler, but I absolutely love JLR. I had an F Type R and an XF before I got the Jeep and loved those cars, especially the F type.

 

Great questions. I too am a 2-door Jeep owner, a JK in my case, 2014. It started life as a ****** Edition, but is built well beyond Rubicon specs, with a 4:1 transfer case, 4.56 gears, lockers front and rear, roll cage, flat fenders, and running 35” tires on the street and 37s on 16” wheels on the trail, as pictured here:






I drive or ship it to Moab (from Atlanta) for 2-3 weeks at a time once or twice a year. Just got back last week from a month out there.

But I have sold it to a friend, predictably, a friend who was in Moab with me in March and got to drive it. It is perfect for what I do with it there, but pretty terrible on the road. Like, probably the worst vehicle in America that was manufactured in the past 50 years. Which brings me to my participation on this board.

I have decided I’m past my hard-core rock-crawling stage. I want to do trails in the 1-5 rated range (on the 10-point scale) and enjoy the scenery that is available from them. I want to do multi-day longer trails across the west, living out of the vehicle. And I want to enjoy, rather than endure, the ride from Atlanta to UT/CA/NV/NM/AZ/WY/CO/MT, etc. and the ride around those states when I’m there. If I lived in such a place and was just a few miles from the trailheads I’d keep the Wrangler and add a Defender. But being that I’m close to 2000 miles away from Utah, it would be a waste. I just drove home, 1800-ish miles, all interstates, over 2.25 days, and that just utterly confirmed my decision.

As to your questions: forget about putting 35s, much less 37s, on this vehicle. 33 seems to be about the extent of it. Even on the JK, to run 37s I had to cut out part of the steel wheelwell (not the plastic fenders — those were already long gone) and the rock rails. I had to install flat fenders and a lift. The lift you can do, and it’s required for 33s. See the Johnson Rods stickie at the top of this forum.

You’re never going to get anything near the articulation you can get out of a Wrangler for hundreds, not thousands, of dollars. The Defender does with electronical wizardry what the Wrangler does with mechanical robustness. Stock to stock, I think you’re right — a 110 will probably go anywhere a JLRU can (Isn’t it ironic that on this forum “JLR” is prominent, meaning Jaguar Land Rover, and on Jeep fora JLR is prominent, meaning “JL Rubicon” or JLRU, JL Rubicon Unlimited, where “JL” describes the current generation of Jeep.)

At any rate, the beauty of the Jeep is the cheap mod-ability, although when you get into transfer cases and locking diffs it stops being cheap pretty quickly. But still much cheaper than trying to make a solid-axle vehicle out of a FJ Cruiser.

The Defender looks in videos like it hoists a wheel or two into the air at the slightest provocation, which on a Jeep often means “loses traction.” But on the Defender, with its electronic ability to send all the power to one tire if that’s the only one with traction, it seems to keep on plugging.

Due to the inability to fit larger tires and the subsequent articulation, this won’t be an equivalent rock crawler on the monster trails out west like a well-modified JK or JL is. But I think it will do the vast majority of anything I am now planning to do, maybe all of it, without complaint. And in the process make the long drive out there as enjoyable as any drive through Mississippi and Arkansas can possibly be.

 

So I was gonna ignore your post because the second I hear the "real" crap I realize you and me got not a lot in common. You hear this kind of myopic tribal juvenile **** mostly from man children who are so insecure in their own choices they need to look down what others like. It's rampant in motorcycles - from Harleys and BMWs to Ducatis or JAPanInc, hell I see it in the Moto Guzzi community, one that is so damn small you would think they would support each other instead of divide. But it's all over the car world too (even on the * gasp * Defenders, which aren't bla bla bla bla...).

But I figured WTF, I'm a bit of a Jeep Fanboy - only having owned four - 2 GCs (including an awesome new WJ with the original mechanical Quadra-Drive), 1 XJ Cherokee, and now one "fake" JKU built to my spec (and modified lightly for the type of off-roading I do - i.e. NOT rock crawling).

So when I was reading your point of having a 4-door and what it wouldn't get you I realized you were SPOT ON about it. Though I LOVE my JKU, at the end of the day other than the additional size (which is not insignificant for family road trips and it has served the 4 of us well), it is no comparison to the D110. If you see this thread ( https://landroverforums.com/forum/20...oading-105900/ ) I compare/contrast it a little bit with what I'm used to (nearly 6 years of OBX road trips/beach/dune runs with the whole family in my JKU vs the trip we took the other week in our D110).

The D110 addresses your desires for comfort, safety, capability in a light off road, camping, road tripping vehicle for the whole family in spades.

Now for the elephants in the room:

Depreciation - if it's that important to you turn around and go home NOW - maybe consider a Gladiator (which addresses many of the same things but not all of the comfort). The fact is that in recent history there are almost no other vehicles that offer the resale value of a Wrangler. It's a un-mitigated bubble I've only enjoyed on one or two other vehicles in my lifetime (early release neo-Mini Cooper S, and a Subaru Baja - both of which brought unreal trades after 7 and 5 years of ownership respectively). You sometimes see it in a Toyota 4Runner, but not to the extent of the Wrangler. If we hadn't just bought the D110 in October I would have been tempted to upgrade from my JKU to a JLU just based on the $30k offer I got for my Sahara which I'd paid only $38k for 6 years before (using the affiliate discount from the $42k msrp). But alas I'm glad I didn't make the change if only because my JKU is right where I want it and stands as a pleasant contrast to the D110.

Reliability - I could say that Jeep has a horrible reputation, and it would be true. It falls far short in the ratings too. But that would be disingenuous because I've had fantastic anecdotal experiences with my Jeeps (well the XJ was a bit of needy bitch, and my SIL BLEW up both the engine and the transmission in her Wrangler, but it was an older one and she was a pig-headed marine bombing back and for for hours on the highway from LeJune when she got leave - that said if I never have to install another motor or transmission in an old Jeep, that would be just fine with me). Still, no one can answer your question on reliability yet. These may last forever (I'm banking they largely will), or they may require expensive (parts) repairs (which they likely will at some point). But I'm cool with that. And hell, I've got a warranty for the next 4 years and it will be paid off before that.

Maintenance - well, hold onto your socks. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the FIRST SERVICE being 2 years out. I mean, it uses almost 9 Quarts of synthetic, so there's hella additives to help with that. But dang. I can't tell you what maintenance is like yet. Though I don't think it's going to be a big deal, I'm prepared to spend a little more for the experience if need be. Because, read that earlier thread yet, the experience is worth it. Effortless to drive, handles better than a truck this heavy should, fantastically capable for what I need/want. There's a lot to like.

My advice is simple, at the end of the day it's only money and you can't take it with you. If the experience speaks to you, WTF. And honestly, new kid on the way, lots of family time and adventures ahead. You CAN do it in another vehicle, there are plenty of choices. But does this one speak to you?

Have fun whatever you decide.

Oh, the kid is gonna love the Wrangler too, especially top off and laughing the whole way. At least mine do, well, despite having a "fake" one.

 

LOL, my 2014 Jeep dropped a valve seat down into the No. 6 piston at just under 15,000 miles and two years old, ironically about 12 miles from a roadhead on the back side of Moab in 2016. Got a tow from an old 98 TJ Wrangler, then a flatbed to Grand Junction CO, where Jeep kept it for a month and installed a new long block. I have systematically lost all 4 of the front seat seatbelt pieces, the receivers and the reels. The clockspring in the steering wheel went out (TSB, it happens to all of them) rendering the airbag and all steering wheel controls inoperable. The fuel system developed an emissions leak that causes the CEL to come on about every 4000 miles; dealer can't diagnose and wants to replace the whole fuel system at my expense, so I just reset with a code reader whenever it comes on. Clutch slave cylinder went out, was poorly replaced by dealer and they had to flatbed the Jeep back a few days later and do it again. One Cat converter went out and threw a code, thankfully still under warranty. Gas cap has had to be replaced (with MOPAR parts) three times, as it begins to leak vapor and throw a code. Radiator began to leak early on, but I just replaced with an aftermarket, more robust unit.

I'm sure there's more; can't remember it all right now. And this is all with 36,000 miles on the Jeep (19,000 on the new motor.)

So I feel like I'm moving towards a MORE reliable vehicle getting a JLR product! I'm probably the only person in America to say that.

 

LOL

Our latest-model Jeeps were the 2012 WK2 Limited we bought new and put about 100k miles on in 9 or so years. Other than a thermostat the ONLY repair it ever needed was in the LAST MONTH of ownership (figures). The 3.6L Pentastar motor didn't burn a DROP of oil between the 8-10k oil changes. It was the early success/enjoyment of this that helped firm my decision to order my 2016 JKUS.

Now granted, my 2016 JKU has led a much more pampered life than it sounds like your 2014. Is that the difference in our experiences with the JK platform? (Who knows, it's a very small sample, but I'm tempted to wonder if Jeeps are just like Harleys, the less you mess with em, the more likely they are to be trouble-free)?

My JKU is a 6-speed, 3.73 Track-Lok rear (specifically set-up for sand/dunes not rocks). I installed a mild 2.0" lift (2.5" front/1.5" rear triple-rate progressive wound springs, Fox racing shocks, adjustable track bars .etc.). So mechanically it's in some ways the Mohave before they offered the Mohave package. I don't think I had it 6 months before I replaced the headlights with good old fashioned Hellas and a relay kit to power em because OEM was so horrible. I've had a couple of warranty fixes (that 6-speed is a known weak link, but I bought it for fun and still enjoy rowing the gears most of the time). Otherwise it's very much set-up for comfort - heated leather, NAV, Alpine, insulated hard top in winter (though just saying these things as "comfort" makes me laugh compared to the Defender, still it's comfortable for what it is).

Anecdotally I'm only at 45k miles and had to replace the battery way too soon (in contrast we traded the 2012 WK2 in on the D110 with the original battery). But maybe blasting the Alpine for hours at a time on the beach (ignition off) took its toll.

I dunno... Being in the industry I guess I see and hear stories from all sides. There are always outliers. But I don't really think there are that many truly unreliable/horrible new vehicles being produced today. Anything can have a problem, but most things OUGHT to last (depending on use and abuse). Of course, we who play with our toys are probably more likely to break something. But then again sometimes it's just dumb luck.

Rather than worry, I'm gonna enjoy, until I don't, then I'll sell it and get something else.

 

We had good service out of our 2011 (first year) WK2 Overland with the Hemi. My wife's DD, I think we put about 80-85k on it and traded on an MB GLE350 in 2017, iirc. The Grand Cherokee had leather dash and that got terribly wavy (think Shar Pei dog's skin) after five years, and Jeep paid for half the $2200 dash replacement cost; I was happy to get help but pissed to put over a grand into something like that. There were two fairly minor warranty repairs and I think that was it. Never left us stranded.

As for the modding of the Wrangler maybe leading to some of the issues, I was careful not to mention anything that I replaced that had any sort of connection to something I modded. Like dropping a valve seat -- the valvetrain was a recall in the 2012 (first year of Pentastar 3.6 in Wrangler) models and mine just suffered the same problem, outside the recall range. Seatbelt reciever and reels? Clock Spring? I doubt my use could have affected these components. Maybe the fuel system CEL or the gas cap, though it's hard to see how. And the cat converter was probably a result of the engine sticking a con-rod through the side of the block in the desert and dumping a big load of raw fuel in it that manifested a few months later, so not really a "separate issue" if that's the case. But to be clear about my use when the engine blew: I was with my wife, literally THE ONLY TIME SHE HAS EVER BEEN OFFROAD WITH ME!!!! , on a very mild No. 1 or 2 trail out of Arches NP called Salt Valley Road you can do in an airport RAV4 (I've done so!), going about 20 mph on a pure sand road when it let go. Here's a picture of how well my lady enjoyed that experience.



Anyway, since this is written and you can't hear/see me, just wanted to allay any thought that I might have been offended or defensive about your suggestion that my hard usage caused or contributed to the problems. I would happily agree with that if I thought it was the case, as I am a big Wrangler fan and hate to disparage what has otherwise been a delightful vehicle. In other words, if I could in good conscience blame myself for the problems I would, and give the Jeep a pass. But I really think, given the low miles, fanatical maintenance I've followed, big percentage of simple long-distance highway miles (out of the 36000 on it, over 11,000 have been highway miles just on the way to/from Utah), pampered garage existence most of the time, I have to say this Jeep has had it pretty good over the course of its 7 years.

Cheers!

Matt

 

It's all good, just discussion.

On the head thing, I don't know if it was related. I mean they changed the heads partway through the 2013 model year. It sounds more like a freak similar failure, but not for the same reason. But who knows (was it the same cylinder #2?).

I was pondering if the extra stress from re-gearing, running larger tires, and rock crawling contributed - higher engine temps or loads, overheat and drop a valve?!?

Who knows.

Con rod eh? Throwing one through the block is what led me to my first Jeep motor transplant for my SIL. But again she was running on the highway 80+ for hours at a time in a vehicle that's less aerodynamic than a cow.

I dunno, like I said, I might feel differently if I had any of these issues. But I know they CAN occur on anything.


PS - OP - sorry for the hijack. Any of this helping?!? LOL. Maybe it's just gonna convince you that JLR couldn't be WORSE.

 

Yeah, that's what Jeep said anyway.

Long thread on Wrangler Forum about 2014+ JKs with the problem:

2014+ Cylinder Head Problems

 

Just went back and looked up my records -- the con rod on the Jeep was "bent, and scored up cylinder wall." I was confusing it with my 68 Cadillac convertible that did indeed stick a conrod through the wall of that old 471CI V8 a couple years before the Jeep incident.

Cheers!

 

Thanks for the reply, I wasnt trying to be some toxic douche who only cares about what "real" platform you choose to drive. It was just my opinion that the 4dr doesnt have the charm of the 2 dr. After owning the 2dr for two years I get why the 4dr exists and why most people go with the 4. Its just a hard pill to swallow for me to spend 55k+ on a car I just do not like. Hence why I am here. Ha

All of the insight is appreciated. It somewhat confirms what I am thinking as far as the Defender goes. You also make a good point on the depreciation and reliability. We are prob two years out from looking at actually getting a Defender so I will prob watch closely how depreciation and reliability ratings go. You are def right though, Jeep has a terrible reputation for reliability, but on the upside it is cheap to fix vs. JLR.

Thank you to everyone for the insight and the fun, I got way less **** than I thought I was going to for talking about the Jeep as much as I did. Ha