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I live in Park City UT and have been completely happy with the p300. Just did a national park road trip and got above 10k ft several times with zero issues. Definitely happy with my choice on the motor
Originally Posted by UtahLandy
I live at 8,000 feet in Utah with a D90S P300 with zero issues in performance. As others have already mentioned, the turbo compensates for the altitude. I traded a normally aspirated 6 cyl BMW X5 that was noticeably affected by the altitude. The only issue that takes some getting used to is there is a fair amount of turbo lag with the small displacement engine. If you plan on towing anything of weight you may want to consider the P400.
My P300 and my wife and I will be joining you in Park City this winter - looking forward to it (and as it relates to this thread, not particularly concerned about performance)!
Let us examine the basics of altitude and engines. In the olden days and for the folks that still like smelly Harleys and such (I live at 7K) there is the issue of mixture and spark advance. You needed to adjust that if you went over 4k. In aircraft, we dynamically adjust the mixture as we climb and cruise. Of course older cars, motorcycles and even lawn mowers, didn't have any way to compensate unless you leaned out your carb and advanced your ignition manually,
Just to clarify about "smelly Harleys" and "older" motorcycles. I only started riding and wrenching on Harleys in the early 90's, but even then they utilized a CV (constant velocity) carburetor.
If you're not familiar with the concept the main jet combines with a tapered needle that is pulled up/outward to increase the amount of fuel metered to the throttle body. What makes this a beautifully elegant design for a carburetor is that the amount of lift the needle receives (and therefore the amount of taper that increases fuel supply past the needle) is controlled indirectly by the throttle plate and directly by a vacuum differential bladder.
To simplify it that means the carburetor is SELF-ADJUSTING to ambient conditions (temperature/pressure) or in pilot's terminology altitude-density. The less dense the air, the less the bladder lifts the needle, and the less fuel is metered.
So some older carbureted machines did indeed adjust for the lower density air at altitude. Granted they still lost some of total power without forced induction, but at least they didn't all automatically go pig rich and, uhh, smelly.
Then again, buy 1996 I purchased my first Weber-Marelli open loop EFI Harley that did the same even better. Still no forced induction but carried me over the Rockies just fine.
None of this has jack to do with the P300 debate. I don't have a 300, but I'm sure it's fine. That said the 400 is sublime so there is that too.
The point about smelly Harleys is due to the sales rep feeding old world BS to a customer. Since I suspect we have all experienced poorly tuned old carbureted products, I used Harleys as a prime example of a motor that responds poorly to altitude. The P300 is turbo, but the P400 is turbo and supercharged. It is a nice system, bit more complicated and I have one. The P300 is just fine for most applications and in some respect a bit simpler and could, in the long run be more trouble free. Time will tell. They both work well at altitude, surprisingly don't smell either.
Harleys by and large smell awful up here. I do long road bike rides around the alpine lakes up here in Flagstaff and big packs of STINKING old Harrys go by (gag, cough) and then cruise up and down Route 66, same goes for old muscle cars that come up to cruise up and down the same stretch. They pretty much all reek of unburnt fuel and poor combustion products. Can't wait until the snow drives them all back to Phoenix. Be cool if they ever got mufflers as well. At least after 1 January the local PD & Patrol will start ticketing for smell and noise and drive them all out. We are all tired of downtown smelling like refinery row coupled to a drag race. Perhaps some will upgrade their carbs to something developed after the last ice age and quit forcing everybody to deal with un-necessary exposure to just bone head pollution because they can't adjust them or they just think that smell is cool. The no muffler thing is just juvenile and illegal. Thank god the younger generations don't like them, so they will increasingly disappear. Rant over.
The point about smelly Harleys is due to the sales rep feeding old world BS to a customer. Since I suspect we have all experienced poorly tuned old carbureted products, I used Harleys as a prime example of a motor that responds poorly to altitude. The P300 is turbo, but the P400 is turbo and supercharged. It is a nice system, bit more complicated and I have one. The P300 is just fine for most applications and in some respect a bit simpler and could, in the long run be more trouble free. Time will tell. They both work well at altitude, surprisingly don't smell either.
Harleys by and large smell awful up here. I do long road bike rides around the alpine lakes up here in Flagstaff and big packs of STINKING old Harrys go by (gag, cough) and then cruise up and down Route 66, same goes for old muscle cars that come up to cruise up and down the same stretch. They pretty much all reek of unburnt fuel and poor combustion products. Can't wait until the snow drives them all back to Phoenix. Be cool if they ever got mufflers as well. At least after 1 January the local PD & Patrol will start ticketing for smell and noise and drive them all out. We are all tired of downtown smelling like refinery row coupled to a drag race. Perhaps some will upgrade their carbs to something developed after the last ice age and quit forcing everybody to deal with un-necessary exposure to just bone head pollution because they can't adjust them or they just think that smell is cool. The no muffler thing is just juvenile and illegal. Thank god the younger generations don't like them, so they will increasingly disappear. Rant over.
I suspect the salesman isn't sophisticated enough to be feeding old world BS. I think it's just new world "upsell" BS.
To be more clear on the Harley thing, the problem is not the Harley, it's the typical moron owner. They open the pipes, cause reversion, and then rejet pig rich cause it's easy instead of truly tuning. Of course if they've already installed the "make me feel better about my tiny pee pee" drag pipes they really can't tune it to run properly out of WOT anyway.
My point is don't hate or misunderstand the dog, hate the lousy dog owner. It's not the dog's fault.
And let’s not forget that even with proper OEM carbs and tuning old cars smell. I bought a 68 Cadillac DeVille convertible 15 years ago. Had the 472 rebuilt professionally to OEM specs (I had no interest in speed in that car) with OEM exhaust and carb. It was eye-opening (nose-opening?) to be reminded of just how bad American cities and towns smelled, even when just one car was driving by but especially when rows of them were stopped at a light. That smell was ubiquitous though and we just thought of it as the smell of transportation. I don’t remember noticing or thinking about it when I was a kid or even a young adult. My first four and my sixth cars as a yoot were carbuerated (with a 10-year-old 530i in between, the “i” standing for injection”), but then it was 20-plus years before I had the Cadillac, and I just forgot what America used to smell like.
I am very glad for emissions controls and computerized fuel injection. And for the record, I hate both Harleys AND their riders.
Not to beat a subject to death, the dog/dog owner is the best analogy to some riders. Not particularly disinclined to motorcycles, but just the packs of greasy ponytailed chunky dudes searching for a "Village People" reunion. In the art gallery I participate in monthly in Phoenix for the Art Walk, we have 5 different vintage motorcycles displayed as actual art pieces, most originate from the 20-30's and even one Harley military dispatch bike along with an early Moto Guzzi, Vigili Urbani police model and some really obscure French ones. The French ones being amusing in their oil system. It consists of a tank with a valve. You opened the valve and oil dribbled through the engine to be a leaked onto the ground as it ran. That must have made it popular.
10-25-2022, 02:31 PM
