New (to me) 1998 Discovery Will Not Start
#1
10-09-2015, 05:41 PM
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New (to me) 1998 Discovery Will Not Start
Hello Everyone, I'm new here. I'm currently a "proud" owner of a 1998 Disco that will not start. I bought it from a shop who was selling it for the vehicle's owner since they didn't want to sink anymore money into it. The story I got from the shop owner was that he felt it had a bad computer because it was flooding the cylinders. I negotiated a low price with the inability to test anything.
After doing some reading, I learned that the old injectors in these things tend to stick (a plausible explanation for the suspected "flooding"), so without actually looking into it further, I ordered a used set of the Gen 3 Bosch injectors, installed them, and it still wouldn't start. It doesn't even try to. I pulled the plugs, which were wet and dirty but looked pretty new (like they've never been in a running engine), cleaned them and tried again, to no avail. Not even a sputter. Took the plugs out again and checked for a spark in one of them and watched a nice strong spark. I checked the rest with a timing light and they're all receiving a charge. The fuel pump is audible and primes on position 2 and I'm reading 35-38 psi upon prime and while cranking. The fuel pump relay is audible as well. I took the plugs out again and some seem slightly damp and I can smell gas. Attempted to reset the inertia switch for giggles...still nothing. At this point I'm pretty satisfied I have fuel delivery and spark, just no ignition. Here's where it gets tricky to me. I sprayed some starter fluid in the intake tube and tried cranking. Again, NOTHING! No signs of combustion. Next, to me, was to check cylinder compression. Obviously the engine will not run, so this was a cold/dry test with closed throttle plate, but here are the readings I got:
1 = 90 2 = 70
3 = 80 4 = 130
5 = 86 6 = 140
7 = 135 8 = 90
I'm at a bit of a loss now. The readings are obviously all over the place and I'm not sure what to make of it. Despite some pretty unimpressive numbers, I should still have combustion in some of the cylinders with the starter fluid, correct? The only explanation I can come up with at this time would be a "timing" (pun intended) issue. I'm open for all suggestions at this point. I have heard the engine give a little pop maybe twice in the entire time I have been working on it, which may include a collective cranking time of 2.5 minutes over the past week. 99% of the time it cranks with no signs of life.
Oh, and this 98 Disco1 has only 78,000 miles on the odometer, which is believed to be correct...the main reason why I picked it up. I was also told it has been sitting at the shop for about 8 months. There is maybe an 1/8 tank of gas in it and I poured dry gas into the tank. The battery is brand new (I installed it) and the security light is not illuminated on the dash with the doors unlocked and key in the ignition. I've tried doing the key dance in the driver's door 5 times and the central locking works (aside from the passenger door actuator, which seems dead). I don't seem to be having any alarms issues and figured I'm in the clear there since the fuel pressure is good and the coil packs appear to be delivering a charge down the wires.
I really appreciate any help you all have before I start thinking about tearing into the mechanicals. Thanks!
After doing some reading, I learned that the old injectors in these things tend to stick (a plausible explanation for the suspected "flooding"), so without actually looking into it further, I ordered a used set of the Gen 3 Bosch injectors, installed them, and it still wouldn't start. It doesn't even try to. I pulled the plugs, which were wet and dirty but looked pretty new (like they've never been in a running engine), cleaned them and tried again, to no avail. Not even a sputter. Took the plugs out again and checked for a spark in one of them and watched a nice strong spark. I checked the rest with a timing light and they're all receiving a charge. The fuel pump is audible and primes on position 2 and I'm reading 35-38 psi upon prime and while cranking. The fuel pump relay is audible as well. I took the plugs out again and some seem slightly damp and I can smell gas. Attempted to reset the inertia switch for giggles...still nothing. At this point I'm pretty satisfied I have fuel delivery and spark, just no ignition. Here's where it gets tricky to me. I sprayed some starter fluid in the intake tube and tried cranking. Again, NOTHING! No signs of combustion. Next, to me, was to check cylinder compression. Obviously the engine will not run, so this was a cold/dry test with closed throttle plate, but here are the readings I got:
1 = 90 2 = 70
3 = 80 4 = 130
5 = 86 6 = 140
7 = 135 8 = 90
I'm at a bit of a loss now. The readings are obviously all over the place and I'm not sure what to make of it. Despite some pretty unimpressive numbers, I should still have combustion in some of the cylinders with the starter fluid, correct? The only explanation I can come up with at this time would be a "timing" (pun intended) issue. I'm open for all suggestions at this point. I have heard the engine give a little pop maybe twice in the entire time I have been working on it, which may include a collective cranking time of 2.5 minutes over the past week. 99% of the time it cranks with no signs of life.
Oh, and this 98 Disco1 has only 78,000 miles on the odometer, which is believed to be correct...the main reason why I picked it up. I was also told it has been sitting at the shop for about 8 months. There is maybe an 1/8 tank of gas in it and I poured dry gas into the tank. The battery is brand new (I installed it) and the security light is not illuminated on the dash with the doors unlocked and key in the ignition. I've tried doing the key dance in the driver's door 5 times and the central locking works (aside from the passenger door actuator, which seems dead). I don't seem to be having any alarms issues and figured I'm in the clear there since the fuel pressure is good and the coil packs appear to be delivering a charge down the wires.
I really appreciate any help you all have before I start thinking about tearing into the mechanicals. Thanks!
Last edited by JabaThaHut; 10-09-2015 at 05:47 PM.
#2
10-09-2015, 11:49 PM
What do the fuses look like in the engine bay, under steering wheel? Drivers side of motor at back of block and mounted facing flywheel there is a sensor called the Crankshaft Position Sensor, what do the wires to it and it's connector look like and if you would could you remove it and check it's face for scaring. While your down there there is an inspection plate to the transmission at the very bottom of the bell housing. Undo it and take a peek at the tabs on the flywheel, they face the front of the engine, check em for straightness (not bent).
Your dry compression on a motor that's been sitting and now fuel (alcohol) washed is going to be very low, your readings look exactly as I'd suspect they would. I would dump the fuel in the tank and add fresh. Change the spark plugs, once soaked they'll never fire. The dry gas won't make separated fuel re-combine. Add a few squirts of oil to each cylinder before screwing in the new plugs.
There is a maintenance manual in the "Tech Section" called the "Rave", download it. Full of information you'll need.
The computer for this engine is on passenger side between inner fender and windshield washer bottle. It's covered by a black ABS cover. Remove battery power, remove connector to the computer and remove computer. Look for signs of corrosion on the two removable covers, remove those and look for corrosion inside - circuit board is main concern.
There is a switch on drivers side of engine bay that looks like the door light switch. Press this switch down before reconnecting battery. It's an alarm switch and if you don't press the switch before reconnecting power it will set the alarm and you'll never figure out why it won't start......that's if it doesn't blow the horn, it may or may not crank but it will never start until the electron box is happy.
Your dry compression on a motor that's been sitting and now fuel (alcohol) washed is going to be very low, your readings look exactly as I'd suspect they would. I would dump the fuel in the tank and add fresh. Change the spark plugs, once soaked they'll never fire. The dry gas won't make separated fuel re-combine. Add a few squirts of oil to each cylinder before screwing in the new plugs.
There is a maintenance manual in the "Tech Section" called the "Rave", download it. Full of information you'll need.
The computer for this engine is on passenger side between inner fender and windshield washer bottle. It's covered by a black ABS cover. Remove battery power, remove connector to the computer and remove computer. Look for signs of corrosion on the two removable covers, remove those and look for corrosion inside - circuit board is main concern.
There is a switch on drivers side of engine bay that looks like the door light switch. Press this switch down before reconnecting battery. It's an alarm switch and if you don't press the switch before reconnecting power it will set the alarm and you'll never figure out why it won't start......that's if it doesn't blow the horn, it may or may not crank but it will never start until the electron box is happy.
#3
10-10-2015, 08:45 PM
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Thanks for the reply!
The fuses in the engine bay all check out as do the ones under the steering wheel. I pulled the crank sensor out and the face does not show any evidence of scarring or impact. The sensor was missing the outer cover I have read about as it was just out in the open. Also, one of the mounting bolts is a little shorter than the other and appears to have had it's tip snapped off. I feel like I might as well just change it since it's off already and not too expensive. The connector looks good but someone definitely spliced in a section of wire as I discovered a splice close to the fuel rail and another maybe 10" from the connector. It almost looks like someone tried lengthening the wire. It looks decent, but I'm thinking on replacing the wire they used. They grounded the copper shield which surrounds the two CKPS wires within the outer insulation. Is that correct/necessary?
Everything seemed kosher upon inspection of the tabs on the flywheel.
Good point, I just found it weird that some cylinders were showing decent compression. Any good tricks to dumping the fuel with these? I suppose I could disconnect the fuel line, supply the pump 12v and pump it out, right? I didn't get a chance to get new plugs yet, but I will, and I will definitely put a little oil in the cylinders. I figured since I could see the current ones spark outside the engine, they were still good, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will spark under compression with a spray of fuel.
I will hop over and find that Rave manual. Thank you!
I located and removed the computer. There is some minor corrosion on the outside case facing the fender but it looks good overall. I did find 2 wires going to the largest connector and 1 to the middle/red connector that have some rodent nibbling evidence. I could see some copper in one but it really wasn't bad. I taped the 3 wires' problem areas. Upon opening, it honestly looks brand new! There's no signs of dirt/dust/water infiltration. The soldering looks good and it appears some kind of coating (water proofing?) is applied to the boards within. It doesn't look compromised at all.
Did not know that about the hood switch! I will definitely press that from now on when reconnecting the battery! I had figured the alarm wasn't affecting me since it wasn't going off, the dash security light wasn't illuminated, and the engine was cranking with apparent spark. Pesky little feature!
So I guess where I stand now is to drain the fuel tank, put in some fresh fuel, replace the CKPS and wire splice, squirt oil into cylinders and install new spark plugs, press the hood switch prior to connecting the battery, then it should start right up, right?
The fuses in the engine bay all check out as do the ones under the steering wheel. I pulled the crank sensor out and the face does not show any evidence of scarring or impact. The sensor was missing the outer cover I have read about as it was just out in the open. Also, one of the mounting bolts is a little shorter than the other and appears to have had it's tip snapped off. I feel like I might as well just change it since it's off already and not too expensive. The connector looks good but someone definitely spliced in a section of wire as I discovered a splice close to the fuel rail and another maybe 10" from the connector. It almost looks like someone tried lengthening the wire. It looks decent, but I'm thinking on replacing the wire they used. They grounded the copper shield which surrounds the two CKPS wires within the outer insulation. Is that correct/necessary?
Everything seemed kosher upon inspection of the tabs on the flywheel.
Good point, I just found it weird that some cylinders were showing decent compression. Any good tricks to dumping the fuel with these? I suppose I could disconnect the fuel line, supply the pump 12v and pump it out, right? I didn't get a chance to get new plugs yet, but I will, and I will definitely put a little oil in the cylinders. I figured since I could see the current ones spark outside the engine, they were still good, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will spark under compression with a spray of fuel.
I will hop over and find that Rave manual. Thank you!
I located and removed the computer. There is some minor corrosion on the outside case facing the fender but it looks good overall. I did find 2 wires going to the largest connector and 1 to the middle/red connector that have some rodent nibbling evidence. I could see some copper in one but it really wasn't bad. I taped the 3 wires' problem areas. Upon opening, it honestly looks brand new! There's no signs of dirt/dust/water infiltration. The soldering looks good and it appears some kind of coating (water proofing?) is applied to the boards within. It doesn't look compromised at all.
Did not know that about the hood switch! I will definitely press that from now on when reconnecting the battery! I had figured the alarm wasn't affecting me since it wasn't going off, the dash security light wasn't illuminated, and the engine was cranking with apparent spark. Pesky little feature!
So I guess where I stand now is to drain the fuel tank, put in some fresh fuel, replace the CKPS and wire splice, squirt oil into cylinders and install new spark plugs, press the hood switch prior to connecting the battery, then it should start right up, right?
#4
10-10-2015, 09:29 PM
Lol, well we hope so. Nice to see you where paying attention to the list, nice run down. I'm wondering about the CkPS as well.
Spark plugs - don't go with anything fancy, just plain ol Champion copper or equivalent. The ones in it had the insulator soaked in fuel, you might have spark but it might not be enough to resist being extinguished when wet. Remove the air cleaner, that allows even more air in while cranking.
Most of the trucks I've seen have had the hood switch bypassed because they where busted. Check the wires to it, check the connector to the switch. There's also a roll over switch on the firewall next to the windshield washer bottle, looks like a detonator (the ones I've seen a time or two - Army). Push the rubber cover, that resets the fuel pump. I know your getting fuel but you never know......
So you have fuel and spark and low compression. If you follow what I've said you have a better chance of getting it to fire. If not then there's another sensor roasted someplace. We'll see how it goes........
Spark plugs - don't go with anything fancy, just plain ol Champion copper or equivalent. The ones in it had the insulator soaked in fuel, you might have spark but it might not be enough to resist being extinguished when wet. Remove the air cleaner, that allows even more air in while cranking.
Most of the trucks I've seen have had the hood switch bypassed because they where busted. Check the wires to it, check the connector to the switch. There's also a roll over switch on the firewall next to the windshield washer bottle, looks like a detonator (the ones I've seen a time or two - Army). Push the rubber cover, that resets the fuel pump. I know your getting fuel but you never know......
So you have fuel and spark and low compression. If you follow what I've said you have a better chance of getting it to fire. If not then there's another sensor roasted someplace. We'll see how it goes........
#6
10-16-2015, 08:04 PM
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Alright, I was finally able to spend a few minutes working in it this week.
I was able to get all the old gas out of the tank and poured in some fresh fuel, dropped some oil into each cylinder, installed 8 brand new Champion copper spark plugs, replaced the crankshaft position sensor as well as the wire splice, made sure to depress the hood switch before connecting the battery, and removed the air filter before cranking.
Results....None. I'm getting the same no-start condition with a "stumble" very infrequently. It sounds like if it would stumble a few times in a row it might do something. I can hear the idle control valve moving, so that sounds like it's responding. Still showing plenty of fuel pressure and compression readings appear to have increased about 2-3%. My timing light is still showing a nice consistent fire through all wires while cranking. I have tried to depress the roll over switch several times as well. The hood switch checks out with my meter and the connector is in great shape.
Here's a video I uploaded to youtube -->
I was able to get all the old gas out of the tank and poured in some fresh fuel, dropped some oil into each cylinder, installed 8 brand new Champion copper spark plugs, replaced the crankshaft position sensor as well as the wire splice, made sure to depress the hood switch before connecting the battery, and removed the air filter before cranking.
Results....None. I'm getting the same no-start condition with a "stumble" very infrequently. It sounds like if it would stumble a few times in a row it might do something. I can hear the idle control valve moving, so that sounds like it's responding. Still showing plenty of fuel pressure and compression readings appear to have increased about 2-3%. My timing light is still showing a nice consistent fire through all wires while cranking. I have tried to depress the roll over switch several times as well. The hood switch checks out with my meter and the connector is in great shape.
Here's a video I uploaded to youtube -->
Last edited by JabaThaHut; 10-16-2015 at 08:07 PM.
#7
10-16-2015, 08:31 PM
Recovery Vehicle
I have been watching this thread and have a few questions. Have you checked the firing order and make sure the spark plugs wires are correctly ran? Is there a timing mark on the harmonic balance so you can hook up a timing light to number 1 cylinder and see if it is firing at or near the number 1 mark?
Going to the basics for internal combustion engine, must have fuel(correct air/fuel mix), spark(at or near TDC) and compression. Something is amiss here and I'm trying to pinpoint it.
When I got my Disco, it was running on 6 cylinders and 2 were getting spark, getting fuel and had great compression. I replaced the plugs, no change, then replaced the coils and wires, and has been running smooth ever since.
Going to the basics for internal combustion engine, must have fuel(correct air/fuel mix), spark(at or near TDC) and compression. Something is amiss here and I'm trying to pinpoint it.
When I got my Disco, it was running on 6 cylinders and 2 were getting spark, getting fuel and had great compression. I replaced the plugs, no change, then replaced the coils and wires, and has been running smooth ever since.
Last edited by Joemamma1954; 10-16-2015 at 08:37 PM.
#8
10-16-2015, 08:48 PM
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I've had the wires off a few times and have reconnected them based on the numbers on the coil pack bracket. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'll feel like a compete idiot... lol) but the cylinders are numbered as such, correct?
Firewall
8 7
6 5
4 3
2 1
Radiator
I'll check my wire orientation again tomorrow. I haven't noticed a timing mark on the balancer but I didn't look either. I'll check for that tomorrow too, I figured there wouldn't be one since there's no distributor.
Speaking of, I'm assuming the computer is in charge of the actual firing order. I haven't looked at the coil input wires but is it possible they could be connected improperly?
Did you view the video? Is it just me or is the spark plug firing too frequently at the RPM rate the starter is turning the engine at (spark crossover)? I guess I could throw a set of wires at it if you think it's worth a shot. Any way to investigate the coil packs' firing order/integrity?
Firewall
8 7
6 5
4 3
2 1
Radiator
I'll check my wire orientation again tomorrow. I haven't noticed a timing mark on the balancer but I didn't look either. I'll check for that tomorrow too, I figured there wouldn't be one since there's no distributor.
Speaking of, I'm assuming the computer is in charge of the actual firing order. I haven't looked at the coil input wires but is it possible they could be connected improperly?
Did you view the video? Is it just me or is the spark plug firing too frequently at the RPM rate the starter is turning the engine at (spark crossover)? I guess I could throw a set of wires at it if you think it's worth a shot. Any way to investigate the coil packs' firing order/integrity?
Last edited by JabaThaHut; 10-16-2015 at 08:53 PM.
#10
10-16-2015, 09:08 PM
Recovery Vehicle
does this look like your coil setup?
In answer to your question, on some vehicles, two plugs are on the same circuit and both will fire, one will be on compression stroke and the other exhaust stroke, so they seem to be firing more than expected.
In answer to your question, on some vehicles, two plugs are on the same circuit and both will fire, one will be on compression stroke and the other exhaust stroke, so they seem to be firing more than expected.
Last edited by Joemamma1954; 10-16-2015 at 09:10 PM.