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What Should I do? Spindle Housing

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  #11  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by oljohnboy
Thats right antichrist, I had my terminology wrong. I knew I was saying the wrong word but could not remember the correct term for the life of me. Yes, they did replace the swivel pins and this is as "reputable" as they come as far as mechanics go. jake 1996D1 they followed the land rover shop manual and say that they set the preload correctly and measured the resistance of the steering. When they first quoted me they said they would have to put it together then test the preload and may have to remove shims. However I know that they just put it together one time and never removed any shims. They just wanted to be done with it.
It sounds like they did it correctly if they measured the preload at the swivel hosuing.

Other things you should check are -

steering box preload - does the wheel feel like it has turn in it before the wheels turn?
steering shaft
All of the bolts attached to steering box, pitman arm etc..
panhard rod bushings - a huge culprit of death wobble
and obviously tie rod ends
 
  #12  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake1996D1
It sounds like they did it correctly if they measured the preload at the swivel hosuing.
That's assuming they had the swivel seal removed and used the ABS torque method rather than the non-ABS lbs of pull method.
The fact they installed a new steering damper to deal with steering wobble tells me they didn't know what they were doing.
 
  #13  
Old 05-31-2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by antichrist
That's assuming they had the swivel seal removed and used the ABS torque method rather than the non-ABS lbs of pull method.
The fact they installed a new steering damper to deal with steering wobble tells me they didn't know what they were doing.
true.. true.. but the manual is pretty much dummy proof
 
  #14  
Old 06-01-2012, 07:38 AM
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More or less. But it does say to check the steering damper function if you have steering wobble, which is wrong.
 
  #15  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by antichrist
More or less. But it does say to check the steering damper function if you have steering wobble, which is wrong.
My bet is that it wasnt the issue to begin with. They rebuilt swivels and the problem was still there.. Then they decided oh well the book says throw a damper on it okay.. fixed!

But not really. I am betting panhard rod bushings are on their way out
 
  #16  
Old 06-01-2012, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by oljohnboy
The first thing done was to replace the pan hard rod bushings and a wheel alignment which made no difference.
So that takes care of that.

Originally Posted by oljohnboy
It was the drivers side that had the repair.
So you only had one side done? Are you Sure the remaining slop isn't coming from the other side? It kind of stands to reason that, like brakes, one side follows the other...

In any case, assuming both sides were done, lets talk swivel preload. I'm not sure why everyone jumps all over the steering damper as not the cause of wobble, and then starts talking swivel preload in the next sentence. If you take a moment to think about it, both of those things do essentially the same thing - the damper damps out oscillation, and so do tight swivels! They don't cause wobble, they help to mask the wobble created by something else. Having too little preload or having a whooped steering damper will not cause wobble, they will just make wobble from somewhere else more apparent.

Death wobble is caused by slop somewhere, that is to say, something flopping around when it shouldn't be. Like bad panhard bushings. Or worn out ball joints. (BTW, nobody has mentioned ball joints yet, which might be where I would look first, maybe even before panhard bushings.) In my case, it was just bad damping from really beat front shocks that made the front axle bounce all over the place everytime I hit a bump. Unfortunately I replace a lot of still good parts before I got to the shocks (they still looked new, for goodness sakes, they must be still good!)

So lets look at what RAVE has to say about it:

Steering vibration, road wheel shimmy - wobble.
Vibration through the steering linkage powerful
enough to induce high frequency oscillation of the
steering wheel, is generally caused by out of balance
road wheels. However there are a number of other
possible causes of this symptom which if severe, may
be described as shimmy or wobble. Regardless of the
terminology used by the owner/driver to describe the
symptoms, the following diagnostic checks should be
carried out in the order presented.

1. Check the tyres and balance of the road wheels.
See GENERAL SPECIFICATION DATA,
Information, Wheels and Tyres See
WHEELS AND TYRES, Fault diagnosis, Fault
- Symptoms See WHEELS AND TYRES,
Repair, Wheel Balancing

2. Check the steering hydraulic damper function.
See Steering Damper

3. Check steering column universal joints for wear
and correct alignment. See Repair, Lower
Steering Shaft and Universal Joints


4. Check steering linkage ball joints for wear,
correct alignment and security, including steering
box and tie rod. See Steering Linkage Inspect


5. Check all front suspension rubbers for wear.
Check all fixing torques, including radius arm
bushes
, panhard rod and anti-roll [sway] bar.
See FRONT SUSPENSION, Repair, Panhard
Rod See FRONT SUSPENSION, Repair,
Radius Arm See FRONT SUSPENSION,
Repair, Anti-Roll[Sway] Bar Assembly See
FRONT SUSPENSION, Repair, Front Shock
Absorber


6. Fit new radius arm bushes using NTC 6860. Fit
harmonic damper if vehicle has air suspension.
Fit new nuts, bolts and washers.

7. Coil spring vehicles only - If problem persists
fit damper kit STC 241 (2 off front) and STC
1474 (2 off rear). Road test vehicle.

8. Check the power steering box adjustments and
operation. See Overhaul, Power Steering Box
9. Check the hub bearing end floats and determine
the condition of the hub bearings. As applicable.
See FRONT AXLE AND FINAL DRIVE, Repair,
Front Hub Assembly


10. Check the resistance and condition of the
swivels. See FRONT AXLE AND FINAL
DRIVE, Description and operation,
Description

If problem is not diagnosed: Repeat
checks starting at 1.

11. Carry out a full steering geometry check. See
INTRODUCTION, Information, Steering

Red highlights are mine, things I don't think were mentioned. If it were me, I would put it up on stands and start pulling on stuff and eliminating one thing at a time. Everything happens for a reason, and this reason is just waiting to be found.
 
  #17  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by geek_IM
In any case, assuming both sides were done, lets talk swivel preload. I'm not sure why everyone jumps all over the steering damper as not the cause of wobble, and then starts talking swivel preload in the next sentence. If you take a moment to think about it, both of those things do essentially the same thing - the damper damps out oscillation, and so do tight swivels! They don't cause wobble, they help to mask the wobble created by something else. Having too little preload or having a whooped steering damper will not cause wobble, they will just make wobble from somewhere else more apparent.
Sorry, no, that's not correct.

Swivel preload doesn't have anything to do with masking wobble, unless you over do it.

The preload is a fixed setting that keeps the swivels from flopping back and forth. You can have a brand new off the show room Disco, lighten the swivel preload and you will have steering wobble. If you still have wobble, then you didn't set it correctly or missed something in the list (see below).

That's completely unlike the steering damper. If you removed it from your new Disco you wouldn't have steering wobble. If you then lighten the swivel preload enough to induce minor wobble, then install a damper, it will mask the wobble caused by the too light preload.

It is true that you can add too much preload and mask other sloppiness. But that will also cause the steering to not self center.
That's why you don't set the preload until you have no wobble. Instead, you disconnect the track rod and drag link from the swivel housing, remove the seal and set the preload to factory specs.

In post #3 I linked to the things to correct before attacking the preload, mainly because setting preload is the most work because on an ABS disco it's usually better to go ahead and rebuild the swivels.
 

Last edited by antichrist; 06-01-2012 at 03:11 PM.
  #18  
Old 06-01-2012, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by antichrist
The preload is a fixed setting that keeps the swivels from flopping back and forth.
Well, yes, that was my point exactly. There is no way in the world that the tiny amount of clearance allowed by having the preload too small is going to let anything flop around, the flop comes from some other part of the steering elements.

Originally Posted by antichrist
That's why you don't set the preload until you have no wobble.
No, you set the preload after you have no wobble because preload can mask a problem that you have otherwise left unfixed.
 
  #19  
Old 06-01-2012, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by geek_IM
Well, yes, that was my point exactly. There is no way in the world that the tiny amount of clearance allowed by having the preload too small is going to let anything flop around, the flop comes from some other part of the steering elements.



No, you set the preload after you have no wobble because preload can mask a problem that you have otherwise left unfixed.

uhh what? I am guessing if these guys are messing with swivel pin preload they checked the damn tie rod ends. However "new" panhard rod bushings these days have been shown to last down the road. I got a bad batch of them that lasted for like 100 miles.. Then I swapped to poly and it's been fine since.

You need to have somebody turn the wheel while you watch the box and wheels. have them tell you when they are turning the wheel. I bet you find your play.

For some reason mechanics dont know how to adjust rover boxes..
 
  #20  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by geek_IM
Well, yes, that was my point exactly. There is no way in the world that the tiny amount of clearance allowed by having the preload too small is going to let anything flop around, the flop comes from some other part of the steering elements.
Yes it will. Everything else can be perfect and too light preload will allow steering wobble.
If everything is perfect, including swivel preload, a steering damper will make no difference for normal driving.

No, you set the preload after you have no wobble because preload can mask a problem that you have otherwise left unfixed.
It won't mask it if the preload is set correctly.
I suppose you could have a tiny bit of wear in something (like tie rod ends) that by itself doesn't cause wobble, but when combined with too light preload would allow steering wobble and setting the preload makes the tie rod looseness not noticeable, but it's just as likely to work the other way, and by that logic you could say replacing the tie rods masks the too light swivel preload.

The fact is that too light preload will cause steering wobble. A bad steering damper will never cause wobble.

By equating swivel preload with steering dampers and talking about it masking issues only confuses people. It's difficult enough dispelling the myth of steering dampers and how they affect steering wobble without implying they serve the same function as swivel pins.
 


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