22 mpg or bust.... and reliable. Engine swap discussion thread.
 

Hey guys! Back at it again with another hair brained idea.

So here's the inside scoop. I'm moving north to Cleveland, OH to persue a mechanical engineering degree as well as an opportunity at NASA Glenn Research Center. The degree is a 5 year commitment and 7 hours from home. If I ever want to be able to see my family and girlfriend (who will be 3 hours away south of Pittsburg) then I'm going to need something fiel efficient. This is also just shy of the great white North, so 4wd is going to be a must. The Silverado at 15mpg highway isn't going to cut it. I'm looking to get well more than 20.

Well I've been scheming you see. I've got this beautiful 03 Discovery just sitting there with a nearly empty engine bay. Why buy a vehicle when you can build one? This is where I start to get a trouble. Something about too many projects, but there's some kind of screaming deal.

Needless to say, I've been looking at engine options. I want to keep the stock transfer case and everything after it, at least for the time being. I want a manual transmission. Minimum 5 speed, but I'm thinking 6. And then there's the engine.

Oh the options. SBC is cheap and plentiful, but hardly going to get 20 mpg no matter how you build it.

LS is nearly as cheap and more plentiful now a days, but 20 is still hard to achieve without major weight reduction.

Diesel? 4bt is always an option. Should be able to break 20 and the swap should be fairly straight forward.

But no, none of these appeal to me quite like the next. Listen to this one: a Ford Ecoboost V6 out of an F150, mated to a 6 speed manual transmission and adapted to the drivetrain. Should be able to hit low 20s with ease. Maybe mid 20s on the highway. And I've heard wonderful things about their reliability. The people I know who have them absolutely love them, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't think they sounded good.

In stock form putting down a drivetrain shattering (for our trucks probably) 360 hp and 400 ft/lb of torque. Easily tunable to 400 hp / 475 torque I'm sure.

Anyway, throw me your ideas. If you've got alternatives I'd love to hear them. Tell me your experiences with these engines, pros and cons, anything you've got for me. Even if it's about an engine I didn't list, throw it in. And transmission ideas. Frankly I haven't even looked yet, so tell me what you know.

Thanks guys!

Thanks! It's just an internship as part of the degree program, but those often lead into jobs. Pretty exciting.

I've thought about it, but honestly I can't find anything I want that does what I need for less than 20k anyway. If I'm spending that much I might as well have it be exactly what I want.

Additionally, the Disco needs a new engine anyway and I'm not going to put another Rover V8 back. At the very least it's getting an old school small block from one of the big three, but I'd love to morpb it back into DD duty.

Get a B5/B6 Audi A4 :dunno:

You can find those all day long for $5kish -- throw another $4-5k at it and you'll have a fast 4wd with good MPG!

If you are going to be in the Cleveland area, spend a day with Eric (at 4X4 Trailhead, which is just a few miles south). Not to be rude, but you will learn more from him in a day...than all of us here in a year...or two. He's a rover guru.

As far as gas mileage goes...in my opinion...it has little to do with the engine in these rovers. It is more reliant on drive train issues. My Silverado, l can let off the gas at the beginning of a long exit ramp and still have to break hard at the stop sign. The Discovery, if l let off immediately after exiting the expressway...l'm back into the gas shortly afterwards to "get" to the end of the ramp. These things have the rolling resistance of a turd.

Another issue, about creating a build of this sort...would be vehicle systems interfacing with one another. Finding or having firmware written to accomplish this would be difficult or expensive. Me, considering your endeavor in Cleveland (internship), l'd find another rover engine for a few hundred dollars, at a junkyard or wreck...and throw that in and save the money you didn't spend on this project for gas. My 01 got 16 mpg, solid, going to Ohio on the expressway. So, to gain a few more miles per gallon...after doing all of this work (and having an engine with a system you probably couldn't monitor anymore) and expense...sounds...well...illogical.

Me, l say...get your career in order...then when the time is right...do this build.

Now, after all of that...and you still want to go through with this...l say...stay with a Chevy power plant. Heck, someone recently had the adapter plate and stuff for the conversion for sale on Discoweb. This way...you aren't reinventing the wheel...so to speak. And there will probably be more information avaliable.

Good luck, with your new endeavor.

Brian.

Hi Alex, congrats on the course. But, you'll never find a gas D2 to achieve 22 mpg only a diesel. If you're prepared to pootle along at say 30mph many cars with gas engines will do but in all honesty find yourself a good popular re-saleable car that is easily fixed (NOT an LR) and go with that, the problem with 4x4 is they have more parts to break or wear and they use more gas and wear tires faster. Good luck (apologies if it all seems too practical)

Diesel just drop the Rover Td5 in there and be done. It is a direct fit and you can order the whole thing out of the UK. They run about 30 MPG.

Buy a used, well maintained Audi or Subaru for your long travel. Keep the Disco as a project truck. I have a few Audis. One is a 2004 A4 Ultrasport with 250k miles. Runs like new and gets 30-32mpg on long trips. Beats the Disco's ass, along with every other 4wd truck, in the snow as well. Good luck!

Ah, guys, killing me with the practicality. Brian, thanks for the tip on Trailhead. I thought they were further west. Might see if I can plan a visit one day. Wonder if they've got an LS D2 I could test drive....

In my Disco, aot of those coasting issues went away when I made the motor breathe better. Headers, intake, cam, port and polish. It coasted almost as well as my Silverado, and in neutral she felt just the same. I don't think there's an 8nherent problem with the drivetrain, but if that turns out to be the case I'll soon have a match set of Dana 44 front/Crystlwr 8.25 rear that I could swap in. Might anyway if the engine swap destroys the stock axles too easily. I just love the stock wheels is my only issue with axle swaps...

As for vehicle systems, the only concern is the BCU which seems to be happy enough in ShadeTree's LS swap. I'm building on some of his work for my planning. I'm not super concerned about systems interfacing as long as I can get a. Standalone ECU for the engine.

TD5 swap is an option, and I could get a manual with that. It would all botm right in which is nice. I could look and see what exactly is required worth that. 30 mpg though? I find that hard to believe. I was thinking they got low 20s as well. I could be wrong though.

I appreciate everyone trying to bring me back to reality, but let's continue on this train a while as if my mind is set. It's not and I'm still considering other options, but let's have the discussion as though it is.

I really appreciate everyone's insight. The cumulative knowledge on this forum is truly immense.

I should also note, this move is probably almost a year away, so I've got some time to do whatever I decide. This isn't something that needs to be cobbled together in a couple months.

I'm closing in on 1,000 miles with the 5.3 LS now. Last mpg average on a highway trip (rough calculations) was around 18 on regular gas with oversized tires. With stock tires and a better tune (still working out bugs), I'm sure I'd be get a little more mpg out of it.

It all depends two things: how much of the Rover do you want to retain and budget.
I went with the 5.3 because it was cheap, easy to find, and roughly the same physical size as the Rover V8. I kept the ZF because it was working just fine and I wanted to keep the overall cost less than $5k.

If I was going all out for mpg, I'd go with the GM LV3 V6 4.3. Slightly less power than 5.3, but a V6 with all modern parts. I don't know if it would get 22 mpg; the limiting factor here is aerodynamics, but it'd be about as close as you'd get right now with a gas engine. Getting the Rover electrical to work with that setup however is another conversation entirely.

X1 ................... too true, 29-30 mpg is easily achievable at 70-80mph on autoroutes. 150K miles and in 15 years the engine has NEVER caused a moments trouble yet including ALL the attached ancilliaries. (tempting fate if you believe or are superstitious, I'm not)

If you're considering an ecoboost, look for a wrecked stick shift Mustang with the 2.3l ecoboost 4 cylinder. Probably a few of them around. 310HP and 30mpg in the 1,000 lb lighter Mustang. Probably would get about 23mpg like the 4x4 Explorers. My sister in law has a 2 wheel drive 4 cylinder ecoboost Explorer and just got 26mpg on a trip to Florida. The 2 wheel drive is about the same weight as the D2. 4x4 Explorer is a little heavier.

Yeah, if you're considering a raw build...the sky is the limits. 4.3 is a great engine, had one in my Jimmy...put 300K+ on it...without any issues. I'm not sure what the horsepower was, but it would be comparable.

​​​​​​​ Brian.

AC, tell me more. What computer is running your engine? The Rover ECU or a Chevy one? I'd more heavily consider an LS family engine if it could get me closer to 20. The savings on the front would roughly balance out the cost in gas. I'm gonna probably ditch the ZF either way in favor of a manual which will save some on gas. In the way of electronics, I'm ready to ditch everything but the BCM.

Are we talking US gallons or European gallons? One Euro gallon is 1.2 US gallons. If we're talking Euro gallons, that gets us closer to 23-24 which would still hit the mark.

The problem with the mustang trans (I've looked at them before) is they're all 2wd. You could do a divorced transfer case, but honestly I'm not sure there's room for the rear driveshaft to be long enough at that point.

The 4x4 explorer is probably a similar weight to my D2. With my tools and camping gear, hitch, etc I come out a little heavier than stock.

That 4.3 is based on the traditional small block Chevy where the new ones are based on the LS family, but are equally reliable. More Hp than the older ones too, which weren't bad to begin with.

The GM ECM is running the engine. The Rover ECM is running everything else including the transmission. I am using a microcontroller to feed certain signals back and forth between the two. That way the Rover can still run the A/C, ABS, TC, Cruise, etc.. You cannot ditch the Rover ECU, basically nothing will work, including the BCM.

Thread: https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...version-90395/

The Ashcroft controller is >$1,000. I didn't want to spend that when I know there is a perfectly usable transmission controller in the truck. My approach from the beginning has been to keep as much factory equipment as reasonable. I also wanted to avoid a wiring nightmare, so I cut as few wires as absolutely possible. The biggest issue with pulling the ECU is the immobilizer, which I didn't want to mess with. It's not that the ECU can't be removed, it's just more work, in my opinion, to remove it than to leave it in place. It really depends on how much of the Rover accessories you want to keep running in the end.

This is a good approach, for your application...in my opinion. Especially, if you want to assemble a swap kit that is responsibly priced/doable by "Joe-Smo" backyard mechanic...and still retains some of the original features...without rewiring them from ground zero.

Brian.

Ok, so here's a question. Honestly, of even be willing to ditch the BCM. How is the SRS controlled? I don't particularly want to give up airbags. I'd be fine switching to manual air controls from a D1, re-wiring the door locks without remote access, etc if I could still keep SRS. any ideas?

What I'm hearing is I need a turbo 4.8 LS with a try. There goes the vague amount of practicality that I started with ...

In all seriousness, a 4.8 V8 LS doesn't sound like a bad option. Could probably pick up an NV4500 cheap, though I'd prefer a 6 speed. Anyone have transmission recommendations to mate to an LS?

That SRS question is a big one for me.

Yeah, the D2 transmission.
AcEngineer is making the whole kit, wiring harness, motor mounts, bell housing adapter.
Just add your LS3 and do some fab where the exhaust meets the manifold.
That has got to be 20+mpg.

As far as airbags go.
I'm seriously considering pulling the fuse and dash bulb.
I'm not too thrilled driving behind 15+ year old airbags.
And not about to pay for new ones.

I'm pretty stuck on swapping out the trans at the same time. I saw that a kit was being out together, and it's enticing, but I don't think that's gonna be my route.

Pretty stuck on the airbags too. I'm just not too keen on giving them up. This is going to be a family runner ome day, too, so it's gotta be safe.

Don't take this wrong, and this is not directed at Alex...but it's funny what folks deem important...nowadays.

Was visiting with my folks last night (86 and 84 yrs old) and we were talking about the trip we took out west in 65. Three weeks, few miles short of 7000...dad was laid off, no A/C, four kids in the back (none wearing seatbelts), no cell phone, no healthcare coverage, no AAA towing service, no tools, no credit card, no Yeti (Styrofoam cooler, believe that) and no worries...and get this...we lived.

Sorry for the sidetrack. But the airbag thingy got me thinking about the days before such things. Okay, this old man is done reminiscing...lol.

Back on topic...

There's a guy here in Michigan that's putting a cummins in his Dll...can hook you up with his contact info...if you happen to change gears about the build. Not sure how he's coming along, been a bit since I had any correspondence.

​​​​​​​ Brian.

Brian, that sounds like a heck of a trip. Times have surely changed. Can't believe you all didn't even take tools! I'd love to have the contact info for the guy doing the Cummins swap.

Man Brian brings back memories, 5 kids , dog, mom and dad up front happily smoking away 70 + miles up a forest service road to go fishing. In station wagon with not a tool, first aid kit or much else than food and camping gear. Pretty sure bear defense was the cast iron frying pan.

Managed to live through all that, and catch some decent fish as I recall.

Haha, 70 liles I can believe. 7000 is... Heck, I wouldn't do that today without any tools. Y'all must've been more brave back then. I love hearing the stories though.

I've been looking at motors on Facebook. 5.3s are a dime a dozen. Seema like people want MORE money for the 4.8s. Unfortunate, since I'd much prefer the 4.8. if I were to go the LS route I light have to score a 4.8 off eBay and get the harness and what knot separate. I could save a couple hundred on the front end, but not much good if it cost me even 1 mpg on the back end.

And then there's still the turbo V6 option...

Funny, my parents asked what l remembered most about the trip. Replied, "Riding in the car and looking out the window." We had no 3X5 device to absorb our eyeballs...we took in the country and all it had to offer.

We even went into the baja peninsula, Mexico. No passports...just a few questions. Hell, we got questioned more going into California.

I believe the 4.8 would be a better fit, horsepower wise.

​​​​​​​ Brian.

Now that I understand. I'm not too young to remember the days before electronic distraction on road trips. That's one thing my parents were pretty tight on. I didn't get a phone till I started highschool. Don't expect my kids will either.

The 4.8 is looking more and more like a good option. I do intend to do more research on the TD5 swap, but finding parts I feel like would be a huge pain. Tunability may also not be too good in the US.

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Ok, so I've been looking more into divorceing the transfer case. 4wd 6 speeds are hard to find unfortunately. A t56 is looking like my best option transmission wise.

Theoretically, what if I were to just flip the front driveshaft to the rear and rear to the front? Are the flanges different? Could I just switch the flanges? That should gain me the extra length I need for divorcing the t-case.

Then I could have an intermediary shaft made to go between the t56 and lt230. Lots of fabrication in the mounting, but that's no real issue. Just have to buy raw material and conaumables. I could also tie the transmission into the same fabricated frame so there would be minimal flax between the two, negating even the need for universal joints in the intermediary shaft. It could drop in/out as a single assembly.

Thought?

I'm thinking with a 6 speed manual/4.8l LS, given a small cam and conservative driving, I'm betting I can hit 21 mpg. I'm finding 4.8s as cheap as $300 shipped, so one with low mileage should run $500 or so.