Sir, I have done my best to offer transparency and explain the situation. I do not understand what you mean by saying "If LR would admit it's their problem then perhaps they would start solving the problem." We cannot manufacture computer chips or make our own tyres. A baker cannot make a cake if he has no eggs or flour.

JLR as a company of course is publicly taking responsibility, but I am not here in any official capacity.

The vehicle you have outlined has no options aside from the appearance package, so I suspect the retailers are inclined to take orders from people requesting higher margin builds. Each retailer is granted a certain amount of build slots for the P300 and they will undoubtedly want to focus where they think they can benefit most. Sometimes they are simply uncomfortable taking the order for one reason or another that has nothing to do with the car. We don't condone that, but of course there's no way to prove it either if we pursue a retailer.

Lastly, you are not forced to buy a used Defender nor are you forced to buy a Land Rover product. You are welcome to buy from any manufacturer you wish. Ford has an impressive Bronco product and the G-Class is quite nice and capable. I suspect though if you are displeased with our prices, retailers and lead time you will also be unimpressed with Mercedes and Ford. We all share similar suppliers and face similar problems.

If you decide you do want a new Defender- I suggest putting together a build with a few option packages and accessories (say $60,000) and politely reach out to retailers outside your area. Ultimately, you tend to get what you give in many cases.

 

JLR is also not the only manufacturer forced into this conclusion. There are other auto manufacturers and commercial vehicle manufacturers that are slowing down, deprioritizing or otherwise adjusting their production to high margin vehicles. It's not that they are trying to take advantage of the situation, it's because they are trying to stay economically viable. Their breakeven points for being profitable vs. bankrupt is a function of margin per vehicle x gross profit per vehicle. If the number they can produce is massively decreased because of egg shortages (oops, I meant "chips" - still stuck on the Great Baking Show analogy), then the only way to keep above water is to start production at the highest margin vehicles. Almost all vehicle manufacturers are faced with this right now.

 

@The Insider

Thanks for joining the forum and contributing your perspective. All very reasoned and unsurprising stuff. Very well put and very much appreciated. You sound like a true professional and a gent.

FWIW, my Defender is my first ever LR and it's the only vehicle I've ever owned that makes me smile, turn back and take a swift glance after I park, revel in it's attributes and in general feel pretty bloody damn great when sat driving it. Not many hunks of metal and plastic can do that.



*grin inducing extras shown.

 

Hi GavinC,

I'm very happy to hear that your new Defender is bringing you so much joy and I welcome you to the Land Rover family. Fun picture!

We set out with the goal of doing something unique and special with the new Defender and it's wonderful to hear when we hit the bullseye for someone. This vehicle went through many phases, changes, last second decisions and countless debates, but in the end it all came together.

Have as much fun as possible, run it hard, explore and don't be afraid to rough it up now and then.

Happy trails!

 

Insider - One thing I've wondered is how tough the Defender actually is on the mechanical front. Can you comment on how we should think about durability of drivetrain and suspension components versus other Land Rover products and vehicles such as the Land Cruiser?

 

That's a good question! I can tell you with little need for reflection that it's our sturdiest and most durable vehicle in the lineup. The chassis is incredibly stiff and the control arms are completely overbuilt. The suspension is our best yet and should offer years of service in harsh conditions.

Part of the reason that our vehicles are rather heavy is that we tend to add an in extra degree of stoutness past what the math suggests it needs to be. The Germans tend to build exactly to the numbers- we tend to go past them. Unfortunately, we apply that philosophy in the wrong places sometimes and could have learned from Porsche when we did the F-TYPE. We completely overbuilt that car and it's a bit too heavy. Sturdy-but too heavy.

Back to Defender. We spent time out at Jeep gatherings in the US watching people high centering their vehicles on rocks and abusing them and we've been to Moab and driven around in Rubicons. The car has been built with some of that in mind, but it also reflects the needs and desires of other markets. The American idea of off-roading is often about putting extremely large tyres on a vehicle and hoisting the chassis sky high and then trying to tackle unusual obstacles. Conversely, for those in other markets who tend to view off-roading more like a journey or trip through rugged environments over great distances they are less interested in this. Large 35" tyres are very hard if not impossible to find in many parts of the world and the last thing you want is an exotic tyre combination while crossing through Kenya or Mozambique. Smaller and narrower tires are also better on fuel, allow better acceleration, and generally work better cutting through mud and water than wide tires.

In regard to the comparisons with the Land Cruiser and Toyota- that's a tough one. In some areas I think we match or exceed that vehicle. However, engineering and design no matter how brilliant doesn't always translate to the final product. In other words, if we hired all of Toyotas engineers and they designed a new vehicle and tried to produce it in England at our facilities the end result would not be the same as you see coming from their factories. In fact, we have people from Toyota and Honda working at JLR and I assure you the cleanliness and professionalism of our manufacturing plants is a site to behold and we implement many of their processes.

Part of the reason Toyota is so reliable is their complete mastery of the parts supply chain and the leverage they have over suppliers due to their sheer size. Toyota has high expectations for its parts and can twist arms to get it. This leads to more CONSISTENCY. Reliability is all about consistency in the modern era to a great degree. The reason you occasionally hear of a 250K mile trouble free Discovery from one person and a a 5K mile lemon from another is not so much about design but consistency. If everything operates as designed- a new Defender will hang in with the Toyota (though I'd argue the Toyota will rust out before our car). However, Toyota more consistently is able to obtain and implement trouble free parts of exceptional quality. JLR is improving every year that we grow though. Our growing size buys us better quality parts and increased leverage.

All that said, Toyota are not infallible and sometimes they have a failure in that supply chain. Most famously is when their US Toyota Pickups started rusting badly (collapsing in some cases) due to improperly manufactured frames (poor steel quality in tandem with innapropriate coating and drainage I'm told) and they had to spend a massive sum of money to put things right with customers. They've also had some problems with various components that tend to get swept under the rug. I'd also add that many of the plastic engine and cooling parts supplied to BMW over the past two decades have been awful (their older cooling systems are incredibly fragile). BMW has few excuses though as they have enough volume and sway to alleviate the problem. They like their fat profit margins though and most of their customers lease and rotate every three years so they don't care too much.

Hope this helps!

 

I bought a 2022 collectors edition trek at msrp from Land Rover Lehi Utah for 85,718.00. Yes they added a 600 dollar fake interior protection package and yes I called 30 dealerships before I found one at msrp....yes I sold my 2020 p400 HSE for 5k more than I paid for it and got a cool 2022 with all the bells and whistles!

 

So, My wife and I visited this dealership (Ray Catena Edison) 2 weeks ago to take our first look at a Defender. This original posts Defender was on the showroom floor. It's a sweet rig. We spoke to a salesman, sat in it, etc. Really impressed. I will say the interior immediately won me over. My wife was driving a Rubicon as a daily and now has a commute and I love the Rubi but hate it on the highway. We have 2 kids in college 2 and 4 hours away and were looking for a more comfortable, but fun (even quirky) option for those trips. The salesman Mike B was great and informative. A week later we set up a test drive. Before the test drive we realized this was a 6,000 mile used car going for 15k over the original MSRP and our hopes for getting one soon was dimmed. We took this original one out for a long test drive with Mike and really, really liked it. After reading the horror stories of these used ones going way over MSRP, and dealer tacking on 'adjustments' over MSRP on new ones, We talked a lot on the test drive with the salesman about the used one, (which I just couldn't justify the mark up), and instead having some patience and ordering one. I asked if there was a mark up on orders. He said no. I realize in this current automotive environment I didn't have much of a chance of haggling. I talked myself into myself accepting that MSRP is a good deal and only chance of getting one. So our intent was ordering and waiting the (hopefully) 4 months for it to arrive (we have a big road trip in late July that we'd love to take the new rig on) On our test drive Mike brought us over to their black lot prep area. He said a new Defender just came in, with a I6 (the used one was a 4) and we took a look at it. It was basically the same MSRP as the floor model , in its favor it had the 6 and total power (and more importantly memory) seats. It was missing the air suspension, trick rear mirror, the roof rack, ladder and snorkel. I really wanted to drive the 6, so we waited about a half hour for them to do a quick prep so we could drive it. The 6 was sooo sweet. The sticker was 72ish. I asked if I could get that for sticker and he said yes. We made the deal. It was late on Friday and they don't do PDI preps on weekends, so we had to wait till Monday to finish the deal. I seriously waited all weekend, up to our final signing for something to break the deal, but it didn't happen, We drove it home on Monday. Smooth deal Mike B was great through the whole process, and it was one of the smoothest new car buys I have had. and.... Before we made the deal, I asked, for Sh!tz and Giggles, what is the best they'd do on the 6k used Defender, He said they turned down 83k over the weekend, It wasn't on the floor on Monday. He said it was sold,
We absolutely love our new Defender so far; I'm keeping the Rubicon as my daily, get around town rig. Just wanted to post this and let everyone know I had a great experience buying from this dealership and would highly recommend them

ng this at the dealer listed her originally

 

Regarding the original posters 6,000 mile used Defender going for 15k over the original MSRP...
So.... 2 weeks ago my wife and I stopped at Ray Catena Land Rover in Edison NJ to get our first up close look at a Defender. The Original posts Defender was on the showroom floor. Its a nicely set up rig with some of the eye catching accessories. We were approached by a salesman and he gave us a little tour of the Defender. The keys were not in it and we did not realize it was used at the time. The salesman did say they didn't have many in stock, (although some of the salespeople had them as Demos, as did he). We left very impressed. I had researched the Defender in the week before, but seeing and feeling that interior sold me.
My wife currently drives an 18 Rubicon, which we love everything about except longer highway rides. Its loud and rough (Duh, its a Rubicon) Our off-roading is light, dirt trails in the Poconos and Beach driving in the Outer Banks. We have kids in college 2 and 4 hours away, and the highway ride just beat on us. We were looking for something fun, capable but hopefully a bit more refined. My wife liked it enough for us to schedule a test drive a week later.
I did some research after that, finding this forum and lots of great videos. I also found out, (here) that the one on the Floor was a Demo. I was pretty floored that they could ask 15k over for 6,000 mile used car! Reading here also showed me there was a lot of Additional Dealer Markup (ADM) on new models. This tempered our hopes of getting one any time soon. We were OK with ordering one and waiting +/- 4 months, hoping to have it in hand by the end of July for a planned vacation.
We set up our test drive last Friday, Same salesman. The used floor model was outside waiting for us. We told him ahead of time we were looking for a longer test drive so both of us can get it on the highway to really see the difference between our current JEEPS ride and the Defender (You guessed it, its a huge improvement)
On our long ride we discussed the demo, and the mark up. He explained the mark up was there fore people who needed instant satisfaction, and they'd likely get it. I asked about orders, timing and mark up, he said 4 months but could be longer, and no mark up on orders. In my mind we were going to go back and set up a build. He ended up bringing us to their back lot and Prep building. There were several Land Rovers on the lot, just taken off the transporter, still in plastic and protective wraps in place. There was another Pangea Green sitting there, We got a chance to sit in it, but could not drive it as it had not been PDI'd yet. Sticker was 72k, similarly optioned to the Demo we were driving with the following exceptions; it was a 6 vs a 4; fully automatic seats (with Memory) Things it was missing that we would have liked: Air suspension, the trick mirror, White roof, roof rack and ladder (my wife loved the look of these last items, but we realized they weren't necessary or likely to be used much by us) I could always get the roof wrapped white. On our way back to the dealer, with the salesman next to me, I asked what that just off the truck new one was going for, He said I could get it for sticker. No ADM ...HMMM.
On the ride back we followed the salesman and his Defender in our JEEP. My wife noted she liked the Tire Cover on his ride
We went back to the dealer, my wife and I had a chance to talk. We weren't exactly intending to take home a new car today, but the new one at MSRP really impressed us. Past me would cringe at that statement, but it is the times
I really wanted to feel the 6 vs the 4. I have never felt the need to push our Wrangler, so a bigger engine really wasn't a thought. The 4 on our test drive felt the same as our v6 Wrangler, which was fine. But I heard great things about the 6 vs the 4, and asked if there was any way we could test drive it. It only took about 30 mins for them to get it ready enough for a quick back road test drive. The 6 was really, really nice. A huge step up from the 4. Smooth and great power delivery. The full power seat (the demo had manual front and back and no memory) was also a plus because it has memory and I play chauffer on the weekends to my 6 inch shorter wife, so Memory comes in handy . We said we'd take it. But honestly, I wasn't celebrating anything yet because I was waiting for something to make the deal fall apart. Before we finalized the deal, I asked, for ****z and Giggles (My 13 year old son got a kick out of that phrase) what's the best you'd do on the Demo. He said not much, and that they turned down 83k earlier in the week.
It was getting late on Friday, we ran some payment numbers (No trade in, I'm keeping the Rubicon as my daily driver (I work locally now) and semi retiring my daily , another fun car, an Australian Built Chevy SS, to keep the miles down on it as its only gone up in value since I bought it new 4 years ago) and made a handshake deal.
My wife mentioned she liked the Tire Cover on his Defender. They weren't prepping that Saturday so we'd have to come back Monday to pick it up.
I was nervous all weekend, telling my wife, Don't be shocked if something comes up and this doesn't happen. I was waiting for the call that they sold it, I questioned myself why I didn't get anything in writing, or put down a deposit. Things fell into place on Monday, Insurance went through, and the bank was all set up. We went out Monday afternoon to finish the deal. After a quick walk around of the cleaned up Pangea Green Defender we went in and sat down to sign our life away. Before I started signing, I asked "Any surprises?" He said No, then corrected himself, "Actually Yes", he turned to my wife and said "I was able to get you the tire cover!"
I have to say, it was a seamless and easy experience, and there were no surprises. I would highly recommend Ray Catena Edison and our salesman Mike B.
He didn't charge for the cover, so I like to think I got our Defender for about $300 under Sticker I'll sleep better Oh and the Demo Defender was sold, Price unknown

2 green off roaders!

We didn't even notice the Tire Cover