Honest discussion about longevity
#41
11-02-2023, 02:49 PM
I'm not claiming that they're engineering a scheme to short-term the lifespan. I don't believe that either. I don't believe they engineer obsolescence or anything like that. I'm not even accusing them of any kind of scheme or scam.
If there is a scam, it is the financing. It's the financialization of consumer purchases that has made it so people buy $80K and $120K vehicles because this financialization permits them to regard only the monthly payment -- that's where the "short term" scheme comes into play (not in the engineering). Now the result of that are these colossal purchase prices that enable fantastic engineering. People are buying stuff for daily drivers that NASA could only dream of a couple decades ago. Those products cannot be affordably renewed no matter the future tech.
No, raspberry pi's (or the pi's of the future) are not going to replace the ECM or BCM on the car -- not unless the systems are totally dumbed down. Automotive systems have an incredible array of application-specific integrated circuits (ASIC) that cannot just be replaced by software. If that were not so, the chip shortage a couple years ago would not have stopped Toyota production. It is true that cheap microprocessors can resolve deficits that emerge over time. For example, I use a "Ultra-gauge" on my Discovery 1 because while the stock gauges are woeful, the car did comply with OBDC2. But will anyone re-write code for the sunroof or window-control module? No. It's just not worth the return. There wouldn't even be an ultragauge if it were a Land Rover-specific thing. Witness that the people with pre-ODBC Lucas systems are out of luck.
So it is not engineering for planned obsolescence or short-term horizons that is the fault here. It is simply an enormous level of complexity that has a limited lifespan and cannot be renewed in an affordable way. No doubt the lifespans before renewal that cars are engineered for are longer, not shorter than they were before. What's different is that the cars are no longer engineered to be renewed. They are essentially disposable. A Series Land Rover can have the front axle and steering rebuilt repeatedly over 70 or more years. Rebuilding or replacing the entirety of the steering and front axle systems on a Defender 2020 after 7 years is inconceivable. The car would just be totaled - ask any insurance adjuster. Fortunately, it's conceivable that the original parts will last 14 years of hard use -- something a Series Rover is not likely to achieve without parts replacement. But the new car has no means to go for 50 years.
If there is a scam, it is the financing. It's the financialization of consumer purchases that has made it so people buy $80K and $120K vehicles because this financialization permits them to regard only the monthly payment -- that's where the "short term" scheme comes into play (not in the engineering). Now the result of that are these colossal purchase prices that enable fantastic engineering. People are buying stuff for daily drivers that NASA could only dream of a couple decades ago. Those products cannot be affordably renewed no matter the future tech.
No, raspberry pi's (or the pi's of the future) are not going to replace the ECM or BCM on the car -- not unless the systems are totally dumbed down. Automotive systems have an incredible array of application-specific integrated circuits (ASIC) that cannot just be replaced by software. If that were not so, the chip shortage a couple years ago would not have stopped Toyota production. It is true that cheap microprocessors can resolve deficits that emerge over time. For example, I use a "Ultra-gauge" on my Discovery 1 because while the stock gauges are woeful, the car did comply with OBDC2. But will anyone re-write code for the sunroof or window-control module? No. It's just not worth the return. There wouldn't even be an ultragauge if it were a Land Rover-specific thing. Witness that the people with pre-ODBC Lucas systems are out of luck.
So it is not engineering for planned obsolescence or short-term horizons that is the fault here. It is simply an enormous level of complexity that has a limited lifespan and cannot be renewed in an affordable way. No doubt the lifespans before renewal that cars are engineered for are longer, not shorter than they were before. What's different is that the cars are no longer engineered to be renewed. They are essentially disposable. A Series Land Rover can have the front axle and steering rebuilt repeatedly over 70 or more years. Rebuilding or replacing the entirety of the steering and front axle systems on a Defender 2020 after 7 years is inconceivable. The car would just be totaled - ask any insurance adjuster. Fortunately, it's conceivable that the original parts will last 14 years of hard use -- something a Series Rover is not likely to achieve without parts replacement. But the new car has no means to go for 50 years.
Regardless the carmakers are scheming or not. You stated:
"they are designed and built for the initial purchaser who is not likely to keep them for more than the warranty period or even 5 years. A buyer who can afford one, can afford the difference to purchase another new one fairly soon."
That simply is not true.
Whether or not the current defender can last for 30 to 50 years, we shall find out in the future. But for you to make such certain assertion that they won't last for a long time is simply unfounded and presumptuous.
#42
11-04-2023, 07:03 AM
Regardless the carmakers are scheming or not. You stated:
"they are designed and built for the initial purchaser who is not likely to keep them for more than the warranty period or even 5 years. A buyer who can afford one, can afford the difference to purchase another new one fairly soon."
That simply is not true.
Whether or not the current defender can last for 30 to 50 years, we shall find out in the future. But for you to make such certain assertion that they won't last for a long time is simply unfounded and presumptuous.
"they are designed and built for the initial purchaser who is not likely to keep them for more than the warranty period or even 5 years. A buyer who can afford one, can afford the difference to purchase another new one fairly soon."
That simply is not true.
Whether or not the current defender can last for 30 to 50 years, we shall find out in the future. But for you to make such certain assertion that they won't last for a long time is simply unfounded and presumptuous.
While I am pretty satisfied with the build of our 110, I am fairly certain it will be in someone else's hands before the warranty expires....
#44
11-04-2023, 08:03 AM
I completely disagree with you. Never in the history of vehicles have I witnessed the absolute lack of commitment to promote longevity by the manufacturer. The stuff on the market today is absolute junk, built for the first owner/leasee and/or the warranty period, whichever expires first. Just yesterday I looked at a '23 Escalade Platinum sport...$120k msrp. I had a few Escalades before, not overly impressed, but I really appreciate the room of a full sizer...I walked, maybe ran, away from that vehicle. I could not believe the s#it build quality/use of materials in the interior...I see this across the board, from MB to Toyota...The only ones that seem to be capitalizing on this are the Koreans at the moment.
While I am pretty satisfied with the build of our 110, I am fairly certain it will be in someone else's hands before the warranty expires....
While I am pretty satisfied with the build of our 110, I am fairly certain it will be in someone else's hands before the warranty expires....
Then my multiple German late models cars that ran over 200k miles without any major issues must have been blessed by the longevity fairies then.
Or my first, second, third generation iPods must have been over-engineered just for the press at the time but somehow mistakenly sold to me because they are still running last time I checked (which was last month).
I am looking forward to the vast numbers of reports of the failure of the air suspension on the current defender as soon as they hit over 50k miles.
#45
11-04-2023, 03:19 PM
I completely disagree with you. Never in the history of vehicles have I witnessed the absolute lack of commitment to promote longevity by the manufacturer. The stuff on the market today is absolute junk, built for the first owner/leasee and/or the warranty period, whichever expires first. Just yesterday I looked at a '23 Escalade Platinum sport...$120k msrp. I had a few Escalades before, not overly impressed, but I really appreciate the room of a full sizer...I walked, maybe ran, away from that vehicle. I could not believe the s#it build quality/use of materials in the interior...I see this across the board, from MB to Toyota...The only ones that seem to be capitalizing on this are the Koreans at the moment.
While I am pretty satisfied with the build of our 110, I am fairly certain it will be in someone else's hands before the warranty expires....
While I am pretty satisfied with the build of our 110, I am fairly certain it will be in someone else's hands before the warranty expires....
#46
11-04-2023, 06:08 PM
I have a First Edition 2020 Defender with 63,000+ miles on it so far. In fact, I just had my 63,000 mile service performed (as service is required every 21,000 miles....although I change my oil more frequently). At 63,000 miles it's recommended to change all flexible brake hoses and spark plugs.....which is very expensive (if at the dealership) by the way. It has been quite reliable during the past 2 years (all of my issues were actually during the first 2 years....it had a lot of first model year kinks that took a lot of time to get sorted out). To my surprise, I have not had to change the brake pads as of yet and I got over 52,000 miles out of my first set of tires. I am hoping to get 100,000+ miles out of my vehicle. Time will tell though about the longevity issues.
--Tucker
2023 RRS Dynamic SE P400 Giola Green (Current)
2020 Defender 110 First Edition Indus Silver (Current)
2020 Discovery HSE Luxury Si6 Fuji White (Former)
2015 RRS Autobiography Fuji White (Former)
2011 RRS Supercharged Fuji White (Former)
2008 LR2 Fuji White (Former)
--Tucker
2023 RRS Dynamic SE P400 Giola Green (Current)
2020 Defender 110 First Edition Indus Silver (Current)
2020 Discovery HSE Luxury Si6 Fuji White (Former)
2015 RRS Autobiography Fuji White (Former)
2011 RRS Supercharged Fuji White (Former)
2008 LR2 Fuji White (Former)
#47
11-04-2023, 06:17 PM
I have a First Edition 2020 Defender with 63,000+ miles on it so far. In fact, I just had my 63,000 mile service performed (as service is required every 21,000 miles....although I change my oil more frequently). At 63,000 miles it's recommended to change all flexible brake hoses and spark plugs.....which is very expensive (if at the dealership) by the way. It has been quite reliable during the past 2 years (all of my issues were actually during the first 2 years....it had a lot of first model year kinks that took a lot of time to get sorted out). To my surprise, I have not had to change the brake pads as of yet and I got over 52,000 miles out of my first set of tires. I am hoping to get 100,000+ miles out of my vehicle. Time will tell though about the longevity issues.
--Tucker
2023 RRS Dynamic SE P400 Giola Green (Current)
2020 Defender 110 First Edition Indus Silver (Current)
2020 Discovery HSE Luxury Si6 Fuji White (Former)
2015 RRS Autobiography Fuji White (Former)
2011 RRS Supercharged Fuji White (Former)
2008 LR2 Fuji White (Former)
--Tucker
2023 RRS Dynamic SE P400 Giola Green (Current)
2020 Defender 110 First Edition Indus Silver (Current)
2020 Discovery HSE Luxury Si6 Fuji White (Former)
2015 RRS Autobiography Fuji White (Former)
2011 RRS Supercharged Fuji White (Former)
2008 LR2 Fuji White (Former)
#48
11-05-2023, 06:54 AM
#49
11-05-2023, 09:00 AM
Wait. Are you "pretty satisfied with the build of our 110" but at the same time you have never seen such lack of commitment to promote longevity and "stuff on the market today is absolute junk"? Sooo, which one is it?? Or maybe you think our 110s are the exception. Well, but they are Land Rovers... I am confused.
#50
11-06-2023, 10:04 AM
Maybe I’m the dummy, not the 1st time….but what’s invovled in “replace all flexible brake lines”. First time LR owner but in this modern age, did they really make a vehicle that requires brake line replacement?? Can’t be. My 2007 Hummer H2 needed brake line replacement due to rust after 15 years, I get that but 63K miles on a modern car?