2020 Defender Talk about the new 2020 Land Rover Defender
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 02:26 AM
  #11  
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l've not read of any other Defender L663 with transmission failure.

Best to wait until the dealer finds out what's actually wrong with it.

Mine came with pretty good undershields/bash plates as standard.

But the vehicle has definitely been designed for primarily highway use.
 
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 08:33 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by JBelt01
No need to replace brake calipers or add a $1,200 skid plate to access the front recovery point.
You don't have to have the front skid plate installed to access the front tow hook. You can remove the cover, or you can do what I did, which is cutting a hole in the cover and putting some trim around it to make it look presentable.


 
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 10:33 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by CincyRovers
You don't have to have the front skid plate installed to access the front tow hook. You can remove the cover, or you can do what I did, which is cutting a hole in the cover and putting some trim around it to make it look presentable.

No doubt, and that’s a clever DIY hack, but my point was the GX was designed from the beginning knowing the recovery hook would need to be easily accessible when going off road. I put this in the same category as grinding down the brake calipers to fit the more appropriate 18” wheels you have rather than the 22s equipped from the factory. There are mods and work-arounds, but I’m disappointed this is necessary on a $92,000 off-road vehicle. After looking at the GX Overtrail up close, it’s clear they have a different idea of their customer base, and I’d have zero issues taking it on some Jeep trails straight from the dealer lot.
 

Last edited by JBelt01; Oct 9, 2024 at 10:54 AM.
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 11:52 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by JBelt01
No doubt, and that’s a clever DIY hack, but my point was the GX was designed from the beginning knowing the recovery hook would need to be easily accessible when going off road. I put this in the same category as grinding down the brake calipers to fit the more appropriate 18” wheels you have rather than the 22s equipped from the factory. There are mods and work-arounds, but I’m disappointed this is necessary on a $92,000 off-road vehicle. After looking at the GX Overtrail up close, it’s clear they have a different idea of their customer base, and I’d have zero issues taking it on some Jeep trails straight from the dealer lot.
I do agree with you. The front recovery point should always be exposed, but JLR says if you want to go off road, just remove the cover. It is a couple of plastic screws and can be off in under two minutes. My old LR4 and D5 had the same problem. I go off-roading a handful of times a year, and I just decided to keep the cover off, but I didn't care for how it looked, and I wasn't going to pay $1200 plus labor for a skid plate, so I decided to take a Sawzall to the front cover. Historically, JLR has never listened to their customer base when it comes to off-roading. They finally got it almost right with the Defender, offering all of the accessories, 18" steel wheels and more, but they dropped the ball after removing steel wheels for the 25MY.
 
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Old Oct 9, 2024 | 08:34 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by CincyRovers
I do agree with you. The front recovery point should always be exposed, but JLR says if you want to go off road, just remove the cover. It is a couple of plastic screws and can be off in under two minutes.
Just thought I'd mention that the "VPLEP0436 Front Undershield" comes with a reinforced support bar, and the plate itself is beefier, so it's more than just a couple of screws.

Originally Posted by CincyRovers
and I wasn't going to pay $1200 plus labor for a skid plate
That sentiment I do share (anecdotal evidence, I was quoted exactly x10 the amount for replacing spark plugs and ignition coils on my other car as it actually took, not accounting for my labor). The only reason I ordered it on mine is that this way it falls under warranty as far as both JLR and insurance companies are concerned.

Originally Posted by CincyRovers
they dropped the ball after removing steel wheels for the 25MY.
On the flip side, all the essential options that were only available in X trim until MY2024 are now available as either standard, or options, in lesser trims, so X is now cosmetic only.

PS: Detailed review of VPLEP0436 installation - gives a pretty good idea about the difference:
 
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 07:55 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Vadiable Paradox
Just thought I'd mention that the "VPLEP0436 Front Undershield" comes with a reinforced support bar, and the plate itself is beefier, so it's more than just a couple of screws.


That sentiment I do share (anecdotal evidence, I was quoted exactly x10 the amount for replacing spark plugs and ignition coils on my other car as it actually took, not accounting for my labor). The only reason I ordered it on mine is that this way it falls under warranty as far as both JLR and insurance companies are concerned.


On the flip side, all the essential options that were only available in X trim until MY2024 are now available as either standard, or options, in lesser trims, so X is now cosmetic only.

PS: Detailed review of VPLEP0436 installation - gives a pretty good idea about the difference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQsFNiJ6Qks
I'm well aware that the front undershield is reinforced - that is part of the reason why the labor is so expensive. I was quoted over $3000 for the part and labor to have the undershield installed. What I was saying is that the plastic cover on vehicles without the undershield are held on by a few plastic screws and clips that will always break. You can see that I broke a few clips and the top of the cover isn't completely flush with the bumper. All Defenders have a front tow hook behind the cover regardless if they have the front undershield.

Most of the features on the X have always been available as an option/accessory on the lesser trim levels, including the rear diff, rear tow hooks and the front undershield just to name a few.
 
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 10:27 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by CincyRovers
I'm well aware that the front undershield is reinforced - that is part of the reason why the labor is so expensive. I was quoted over $3000 for the part and labor to have the undershield installed. What I was saying is that the plastic cover on vehicles without the undershield are held on by a few plastic screws and clips that will always break. You can see that I broke a few clips and the top of the cover isn't completely flush with the bumper. All Defenders have a front tow hook behind the cover regardless if they have the front undershield.

Most of the features on the X have always been available as an option/accessory on the lesser trim levels, including the rear diff, rear tow hooks and the front undershield just to name a few.
I've mentioned it before on the forum - exposure of the front tow hook is important for road and off-road use unless you get lucky and get a recovery vehicle operator who knows Defenders. Actually I strongly recommend keeping a recovery guide in the truck also.
 
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 10:53 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Jim 90
I've mentioned it before on the forum - exposure of the front tow hook is important for road and off-road use unless you get lucky and get a recovery vehicle operator who knows Defenders. Actually I strongly recommend keeping a recovery guide in the truck also.
Which is exactly why we haven't taken our Defender on more than gravel roads. Every time our Jeep club wants to ride some moderate trails I'm sure the Defender could easily handle, I have to decide if I want to risk trashing $2,000 in wheels, spending my afternoon replacing a low profile Goodyear Adventure tire, or haphazardly pulling off my front lower bumper (that I'd most likely ruin trying to get off in a hurry) so someone can pull me out of a ditch. I spec'd all the off-road goodies when I ordered it, but I can see the Defender becoming a money pit quickly. If I damage a single 20" wheel, spending $800 on a new wheel and tire is money thrown in the street, so I'd be committed to replacing all five with 18s, along with real AT tires, requiring the rear caliper swap, and that trail ride would cost me $5K. That's basically the cost/benefit calculation that takes place in my head whenever we're invited out - is this afternoon worth $5K? No, so we crack a beer and grill while waiting for everyone to get back to camp. As I write this post, I'm coming to the realization that owning this vehicle has been like a vampire draining my fun and social life, or that I'm just a poor and can't afford it. lol

It would have cost JLR exactly $0 to expose the existing front recovery point and offer 18" wheels as an option. I'm convinced they don't because they're not trying to compete with the Toyota 4Runner, Landcruiser, Lexus GX, etc. They're targeting the urban affluent who won't see more than a dirt parking lot in Malibu. Even the luxury part is compromised. To my surprise, after ordering the heated seats, heated steering wheel, and heated windshield, they can't be configured to activate with the remote start, so you're still getting into a frozen vehicle. Hell, my 2017 Jeep Wrangler had that functionality standard, and the remote start worked via the app AND the key fob.
 

Last edited by JBelt01; Oct 10, 2024 at 11:10 AM.
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 11:49 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by CincyRovers
I do agree with you. The front recovery point should always be exposed, but JLR says if you want to go off road, just remove the cover. It is a couple of plastic screws and can be off in under two minutes. My old LR4 and D5 had the same problem. I go off-roading a handful of times a year, and I just decided to keep the cover off, but I didn't care for how it looked, and I wasn't going to pay $1200 plus labor for a skid plate, so I decided to take a Sawzall to the front cover. Historically, JLR has never listened to their customer base when it comes to off-roading. They finally got it almost right with the Defender, offering all of the accessories, 18" steel wheels and more, but they dropped the ball after removing steel wheels for the 25MY.
Almost... one of the first LRs to NOT use a body on frame like the old Defender was the "Freelander," or LR2 in the US. It was absolutely designed top to bottom in every way to tackle off road. The LR2 had STANDARD a front skid plate and exposed recovery hook up front plus one in the rear. The front skid plate was painted the color of the SUV, because it wasn't designed to be a silly "look at me" skid plate you see on RRS. The LR2 came with 18" rims, BUT it could fit (yellow sticker) a 17" rim - woa, a LR on a 17"? Yep. This is what separated the LR2 from the later LR4,which moved to a 19" rim and removed much of the LR2s sidewall. I called those things "T-Rex" LRs, as the wheels were freakishly small for the big box on top. It was like T-Rex arms - very silly to think that's a good idea, and clearly different from the older LR2s that could go to a 17" rim. The LR2 didn't have any mechanical locking differentials, but it did have the terrain modes and down hill assist. IMO the reason JLR doesn't have standard skid plates on Defender has more to do with production limitations around Defender sales success. Who in their right mind at JLR thinks "yea, nobody wants a skid plate for off road driving?" Clearly, it must be they don't have the time to build that in. As for the 18" rims, again, I think its more likely production limitation. They had a LR2 on 17" rims - they clearly can figure out for themselves that selling an SUV with big rims means you're choosing to intentionally fail at making it off road dependable. JLR will say that a 21" rim can go off road, but really, who would do that?! Hence the aftermarket: it's not there to outfit the Defender, it's there to fix the manufacturing defect in all Defenders, because JLR either doesn't have time - or been willing to invest the time - to make Defender correctly. And I'm sure at some level, they know they are making massively inferior rim/wheel set ups. One can hope that JLR dealerships can fix the mistakes at a later point for those drivers that wanted to venture off the pavement. IMO JLR should fire the person responsible for dropping the 18" steel wheel they had. It was Steve Jobs level genius, and whatever thinking led to under-appreciating the significance of an 18" rim, that thinking is more than likely to bankrupt JLR - they need to fire that idiot. Who's going to want a small hand-held phone that can connect to the internet?! What a dumb idea, right? Fitting an 18" steel rim on a Defender was iPhone level brilliant, and there's some idiot at JLR in need of a pink slip. I can think of no reason why JLR would drop the only off road rim size for their only off road SUV; it makes zero sense, financially, marketing, or from any perspective... The best way for JLR to fix the mistake they made would be for some JLR dealerships to use something like the Lucky 8 brake conversions, and getting the Defenders back out there with the correct tire/rim set up for someone that wants off road to be part of the driving mix. This would work well for the JLR dealership, for JLR (they would sell us steel rims probably), and it would work well for Lucky 8.
 
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Old Oct 10, 2024 | 12:10 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by JBelt01
Just sharing my experience. They’ve had the truck in the service bay for 2 days and they haven’t been able to identify the problem yet.

I put a deposit down on a Lexus GX550 Overtrail Plus today. It comes with 18” wheels, 33” AT tires, flat cargo floor, and accessible recovery points. No need to replace brake calipers or add a $1,200 skid plate to access the front recovery point.

We actually spend time outdoors and want to use the Defender off-road. I want to like this vehicle and have some adventures with it, but who is really the target market when it’s only sold with 20-22” wheels and requires aftermarket mods? The wheels on the Defender are bigger than what I have on my Porsche 911. Toyota seems to have a better executed product for people who actually want to do what Land Rover advertises.

Fun Fact: At Destination Defender the manufacturer owned off-road demo vehicles were running 275/65R20 (34”) tires. As a customer you can’t spec that vehicle, and it’s not possible to fit that tire without warranty voiding aftermarket mods. A bait and switch most people won’t notice, and something Toyota/Lexus would find unnecessary because they’re already built for purpose.

I made a post a while back about this exact brilliant move by Toyota. Folks thought it was about me wanting to buy a GX, but it wasn't. I drive a LR and I've got a Defender heading my way. My frustration was that my team was totally asleep at the plate, while Toyota just bashed one out of the park. I don't want to buy a GX, I want JLR to make a Defender than is available with the correct tire/rim set up for the US market of tires. It was about the fact that Toyota considered what tires a GX OT owner may buy, and then made sure the GX OT could fit a wide variety off road tires. At the end of all that, the GX can buy off road tires; a GX OT owner has tire choices. A Defender can't. No matter how good the electronics are, a Defender with no mods can't be fitted with an off road tire using JLR rims - none. That's a Grand Canyon size difference, fully stemming from how Toyota thought about tire choices ahead of time, whereas JLR refused to consider off road tire choices for owners. Why they don't want anyone with a Defender to buy an All Terrain Off Road tire is bizarre, and IMO Toyota looked smart to make sure the GX OT could do it (if that's what the customer wanted). I think JLR will eventually figure it out, but wow, what a completely dumb thing to overlook tire choices and selection for an off road SUV. I see the GX OT around town but didn't check it out in person. I love the inside of Defender and my current LR has gone well. I'm not looking to switch to Lexus, and I'll mod my Defender to 18"s if I have to. But yea, I am completely disappointed that JLR can't read the room the way Toyota did.
 
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