Good day to you gentlemen

Paul Grant suggested I contact you regarding my own brand of the endemic Discovery starting virus. Should you at all have the time to even read this, and have the inclination to advise me some I shall be greatly honored. What follows is a concise history of the past two months:

1995 Discovery 1. Bought it two months ago, 193k miles, neglected. No radio or other display - all removed.

The initial issues:

• · low torque on uphill

• · engine cuts after cold start and about 200 yds driving. After a 5 minute rest it started and ran OK.

• · warm engine starting and running had no issues.

The repair history and further symptoms:

1. I replaced the spark plugs, HT wires, fuel filter. Ran good for a week, better torque, and then completely dead. No spark at all. Tested the ignition coil with multi-meter and it was OK. The ignition amplifier unit (mounted next to the coil in front) tested dead. Ordered a new one (aftermarket, unknown brand name), installed and perfect start and run. For a week.
2. Then would start when cold, but after shutdown when the engine was hot there was no start. Fuel smell. Battery perfect, 12.6 V and starter motor spinned the engine fast. Had to be towed home once, and I tested an in-gear start. Immediate start, no hesitation. Thereafter had that many times - no key start but immediate tug or down hill start the moment the engine turned. Distinct overfuelling smell when trying a key start.
3. Then after two weeks suddenly again no spark from the coil HT onto the engine, and even a tow would not start it. Ordered new Bosch coil and another (OEM) ignition amplifier module, as well as new coolant temperature sensor, installed and started and ran perfectly for two weeks. Then again start failure cold or hot, despite NO symptoms during previous run, or it would start normally and cut out dead after 10 seconds or so. This time there was no fuel smell. I find no fuel pressure tester in my little town, but there was some pressure in the gallery.
4. I removed the fuel pump and tested it outside with alcohol directly from a battery. There was a split-second hesitation and then it ran and squirted about a two feet jet. Put it back and the engine fired up first time and ran very smoothly. For almost a week.
5. Suddenly no start. This coincided with the alarm going off to my utter surprise when I unlocked the front passenger door one morning with the key. Had done that many times before, did not even know it had an alarm, this sounding was a first. The alarm was difficult to stop - only after locking and unlocking a few times with the key from the driver's door (I have no remote control for the doors).
6. Yesterday I was working on the vehicle and checking the fuses under the steering column and the relays at the front passenger footwell; suddenly I heard a relay ticking somewhere left front, and the hazard lights were flashing but no alarm. I pressed the hazard lights switch and that relay also started ticking and the other one kept on ticking. The lights flashed with the unknown one.
7. After some locking / unlocking with the key at the driver door the ticking stopped. Again no start.
8. By now I was thinking that the alarm system / immobiliser is the problem. I disconnected the battery negative, turned the ignition key to 2nd position and reconnected the battery. I also removed the wiring from the inertia-cut-out and bridged the terminals with a piece of wire. Immediate start and best smooth running I ever had. Ran perfectly for a 20 mile drive. Hot starts, cold starts all perfect - the smoothest engine I had so far. Locked the vehicle last night with the key (no clicking sounds, no hazard lights flashing).
9. This morning NO start. Nothing.
10. Disconnected the battery negative terminal, switched the ignition to position 2 and after 2 mins reconnected the battery. Perfect start and run. No issues afterwards.
11. I am now at the stage where my flabber is gasted when she in fact DOES start!
    

Questions:

1. How can I isolate the alarm system / immobiliser? I want to see if that solves the start problem.
2. Where do I find the ignition relay? I have a new one but can not find the place to do the replacement.
3. The Rave manual on testing for spark is not conclusive for testing the coil - there are opposites regarding a spark from the coil HT onto the engine.
4. Which coil terminal (+ or -) goes to the ignition amplifier and which to the power supply (key and battery?). My coil low voltage terminals are connected positive to the amplifier and negative to the ignition and this seems wrong, but my knowledge weakness is with motor vehicle electrical systems. If it is wrong, why does it at all start at times and run perfectly.

Many thanks for you time - in all my 50 years of owning and maintaining my own vehicles this has me stumped - but then again nothing I have ever owned ever had a starting problem unless a battery was too weak.

Regards

 

Questions first;

1. For obvious reasons it can't be broadcast to the world how to break into a Rover. That is what your asking for.....
2. Ignition Relay? No such object. What color is it?
3. 6mm from engine block, should make a snap sound and be a white spark not a blue dull spark.
4. Backwards. + to ignition switch, - to the amplifier.

Now from my own experience on the dizzy driven motors you should use only Lucas brand cap, rotor and coil. Other brands give all kinds of weird problems. I suggest you try to understand the ETM, it's honestly very simple once you put some time into it. (I do have an electronic/electrical background so it was easy for me) If you have to write it down then it's worth the time. You have a high mileage motor with God knows how many original sensors and also a tune resistor. The tune resistor tells the ECU what fuel map to use specific to market the vehicle was sold to. I suggest finding it and testing it's value. I've seen it do some weird things to Rovers.... Which brings up another good point, sensors can either act up when cold or when warm. You have one or the other going on.

You have a code reader under the passenger seat; Red 2 digit LED readout. I suggest poking your head in back of the seat looking to the front to find it and see if it's showing a code. It's perched on top of your ECU.

What say you my friend?

 

To reply to the section numbers of what you've done so far.

I found 5 to be interesting. The alarm functioned properly when you opened the passenger door with the key. That is what is supposed to happen. In order to disengage the alarm only the Driver's door has the electric switch to deactivate it. I don't doubt you have an alarm issue. Check the drivers side door switch for corrosion. You have to remove the door card in order to see it.

Check your door switches, the push in type. See if they all act accordingly. They can be removed to check for operation and continuity. When the door is closed the switch is open, door open the switch is closed.

 

Thank you IHSCOUTS, much appreciated.

I am a little pressed for time but wish to respond initially as follows:

1. Shall check the driver's door switch on Saturday, thanks, and then te remaining. The rear passenger door on driver's side does not release the push in-pull up lock when the central unlocking is activated by the key from the driver's door. I'll check that too.
2. The vehicle is nou starting and running very well since I have not locked it again from the driver's door.
3. No check engine light after start. No codes on the display (geewhiz... why is it hidden exactly where the rear passenger will kick the darn thing out of its mounting?). In fact there is no indication of any power on that display. Removing the ECM fuse during idle there is NO change to anything the engine had been doing at the time. Pulling out the whole interface cable also makes no change - I'll check that when driving and see what happens.
4. I agree with the strong spark, from the coil to engine, but the ignition system Test One in the RAVE manual says there should be NO SPARK. I thought this was a little silly so I ignored that. But it says so right there in the .pdf manual.
5. The ignition relay is a marked part, advertised and shipped as the "Ignition Relay". It is yellow - has most numbers of the other yellow relays except for one number. I assume that there should be relay to switch the current flow via the key to the coil, etc?
6. So the green relay is for the alarm system I read elsewhere mentioned by Mike. What will happen if I remove the relay? What will happen if I the bridge the connector terminals and not use the relay?
7. I got the vehicle with the funny connections at the coil LT + and -. It starts and runs just fine (apart from the previous intermittent issues we now suspect the alarm system as being the culprit of). I'll undo the terminals at these two positions, swop them around and connect ignition to positive en amplifier module to negative and see what happens - hope I do not blow the module...
8. Well, I do not want to steal my own Landrover - it has too darn many issues! I simply want to isolate the alarm system to get rid of some of the issues. Maybe someone else will steal it then and I can aquire something that won't let me down way out in the wastelands of Nevada next month.

Thanks for the time spent by whoever wishes to add to this general pool of knowledge.


Andries

 

4. Ah, that no spark is because your holding the HT lead to the rotor with the cap off. If there is a spark that means the rotor is grounding......there is a method to the madness. Normally Windex or WD40 will prevent "carbon tracking" which is a carbon dust "path" to ground.

5. The only relay marked "Ignition...." is the Ignition Load Relay and it's the first yellow relay in the series of 4 relays with the last one being green. It's behind the RH passenger footwell kick panel. See if the numbers match.

 

Certainly no tracking in the distibutor cap and the rotor arm is working as it should - and no spark to the rotor arm terminal with the cap removed.

The RAVE procedure I am referrring to is this one, testing the spark on the engine block - the very first test in the series:

TEST 1:
H.T. Sparking

Remove coil/distributor H.T. lead from distributor
cover and hold approximately 6mm from engine block,
using suitable insulated pliers.
Switch ignition ’On’ and operate starter.
Regular sparking indicates fault in H.T. distribution,
plugs, timing or fuelling, proceed to Test 6. My boldface)

 

Skip that one, it's not correct and the Rave has a few mistakes.

Here's the same test in another section;

Remove existing coil/distributor H.T. lead and fit test
H.T. lead to coil tower. Using suitable insulated pliers,
hold free end about 6mm from engine block and crank
engine. There should be good H.T. sparking.
If weak or no sparking, fit new coil, repeat test.
H.T. sparking good, repeat test with original H.T. lead.
If sparking is good carry out Test 6.
If weak or no sparking, fit new H.T. lead, if engine will
not start carry out Test 6.

That test is replacing an existing HT lead with another known good HT lead. That is the only difference between the two.

 

Thanks friend, I soon discarded that test opinion in the Rave Manual as it evidently should not be as it is. One wonders where an amendment proposal can be forwarded to. One also wonders how many other wrong opinions on diagnostic findings are elsewhere in that manual.

I had a Haynes manual for my TDi Landrovers.

My next big job is the massive oil leak from the power steering system.

 

... please put your thoughts into the think tank.

Same problem is back after four days of simply perfect starting and smooth running - warm or cold or hot engine.

After a 100 mile trip (overnight stops) I had her standing for about three hours and then had to go to the store. As I turn the ignition on the "Check Engine" light is NOT displayed. NO start. I am shocked as she had been perfect for 4 days and 100 miles.

1. Turned off the ignition, removed the battery negative connector, turned the key to ignition on and reconnect the negative - and immediately the alarm sounds, (first time this has ever happened when replaing the negatve lead) but the hazard lights do NOT flash.
2. Lock-unlock-lock-unlock the driver door with the key, all locks operate and the alarm stops after the third attempt. 02 fault code is displayed (I do not know what this indicates, please tell me).
3. Still no start.
4. Repeat the procedure in (1) above. The alarm sounds again and this time the hazard lights also flash.
5. Repeat (2) above and the alarm stops at the second attempt. This time no fault code is displayed.
6. Still no start.
7. Do the battery disconnect a third time and NO alarm.
8. No start and fault code 02 is displayed.

I have no doubt that the alarm system is the culprit. This is my only transport and I need it to carry out my required chores. As said before I do not need to break into my own Landrover as I have the key - however I need to isolate the immobiliser and use the vehicle but how does one do that?


Tomorrow I'll bridge out the green leads after removing the relay and see what gives.


Thanks in advance for the advice.


Andries

 

A 95 disco by the spider bypass plug and take the alarm out of the loop. They sale the by pass at rovers north I have one and use it when I work on 95 and 94 models. The spider is behind the radio you will have to remove the bezel to get to it. These alarm system are crap to begin with and being made by the prince of darkness doesn't help. My 95 is bypassed until I decided to dig into it and my locks work fine and it cranks every time.