End All answer to stupid oil questions.
#252
02-15-2016, 11:10 AM
The following 2 users liked this post by ZGPhoto:
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#255
03-29-2017, 03:09 PM
To anyone that runs across this thread, holy **** there is some bad information in here.
Do not listen to Savannah Buzz or RoverTech on their filter choice, it is a terrible filter for the Rover V8.
Your important factors here are filtration, bypass pressure and flow. There seems to be a HUGE misunderstanding of what the bypass does and when it is in operation.
The bypass valve of your oil filter is only in operation when the pressure drop across the oil filter is greater than the valves opening pressure. Its entire point is to prevent a lack of flow through the oil system when the oil filter is too much of a restriction. This happens when the oil is too thick to be easily pumped through the filter or when the filter is restricted from becoming clogged, the latter should never happen if you change your oil and oil filter often enough.
Having a high bypass is a bad idea because it causes the oil to have to go through the filter when it is easier to bypass the filter and get the oil to the bearings SOONER than waiting to force thick oil through the filter. When the oil is warm, it easily flows through the filter and the bypass is closed. The bypass on an oil filter will NEVER open no matter the oil pressure with warm oil UNLESS the filter is clogged, in which you have a totally different problem. Anyone who uses the W950/4 or similar high bypass pressure is simply causing more wear on their bearings on cold-start.
Oil pressure and oil flow are a balance. Oil pressure helps float the rod, main journals, and other wear items from each other. When the engine has low load, like at idle, low oil pressure is fine. Oil flow is important to help remove heat from the wear parts. Too low of flow is slow in circulating oil through both the oil cooler and sinking heat into the oil pan.
Micron ratings are important, but very confusing to someone who isn't aware. Most often you will see data in the "Nominal Micron Rating" category. There's way more to talk about than I care to type out... so I'll leave you with this link: Baldwin Filters | Tech Tips
What you're looking for here in an ideal world is an "Absolute rating" number somewhere around 20 at greater than 95%. If you don't get a percentage with your filter rating, assume it's a nominal rating. In my opinion, anything other than an absolute rating is a waste and that information can be ignored. It's like saying a hockey goalie is 25% effective if he just stands there since his body blocks 25% of the goal. You are only interested in the smallest size particle that the filter can effectively filter out nearly 100% of the time. I got bad news for the W950/4 crowd, it's absolute rating is 50 microns! That's the size of a human hair. Most dust is smaller than 40 microns, so it'll take a few passes through the 50 micron absolute filter before the particles are captured. Meanwhile the guy with the cheaper Wix 51515 is filtering down to 21 micron absolute.
As far as getting a bigger filter because it holds more oil... yet it is less effective at filtering? Why?
Some oil filters that are "extended life" filters (10k+ mile changes) using different materials that have more surface area in order to trap particles. These really aren't needed as anyone on here should be able to swap their filter relatively quickly. Not to mention the Amsoil EA026 costs ~$20. You can buy four Wix 51515's for that!
Here's some data that I have collected, all micron ratings are absolute. I didn't log where I had found the data but often it was from manufacturer catalogs or product data sheets from the manufacturer.
Anything red in the micron rating is greater than 32 micron absolute. T-Volume is theoretical volume, simply the diameter time the length times pi. This was just a quick way to compare sizes and isn't representative of the amount of oil that the filter could actually hold.
If you **** money and demand excellence, I'd recommend the Amsoil EA026 all day long.
If you're a normal person and just want an oil filter that works and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, Wix 51515. If it's not in stock, grab a Wix 51459 or Napa 1459 - same same. If not those, grab a Motorcraft FL1A, everyone should have that in stock. I've not tried it but just make sure the o-ring mates up so it doesn't leak. The Motorcraft has a slightly higher bypass pressure, but that shouldn't matter unless you're running 15w+ in the winter.
So, what I'm really wondering is why people put so much emphasis on their oil filter... but nobody has said jack **** about their air filter. How do you think all of the dirt gets into the oil anyways?
Do not listen to Savannah Buzz or RoverTech on their filter choice, it is a terrible filter for the Rover V8.
Your important factors here are filtration, bypass pressure and flow. There seems to be a HUGE misunderstanding of what the bypass does and when it is in operation.
The bypass valve of your oil filter is only in operation when the pressure drop across the oil filter is greater than the valves opening pressure. Its entire point is to prevent a lack of flow through the oil system when the oil filter is too much of a restriction. This happens when the oil is too thick to be easily pumped through the filter or when the filter is restricted from becoming clogged, the latter should never happen if you change your oil and oil filter often enough.
Having a high bypass is a bad idea because it causes the oil to have to go through the filter when it is easier to bypass the filter and get the oil to the bearings SOONER than waiting to force thick oil through the filter. When the oil is warm, it easily flows through the filter and the bypass is closed. The bypass on an oil filter will NEVER open no matter the oil pressure with warm oil UNLESS the filter is clogged, in which you have a totally different problem. Anyone who uses the W950/4 or similar high bypass pressure is simply causing more wear on their bearings on cold-start.
Oil pressure and oil flow are a balance. Oil pressure helps float the rod, main journals, and other wear items from each other. When the engine has low load, like at idle, low oil pressure is fine. Oil flow is important to help remove heat from the wear parts. Too low of flow is slow in circulating oil through both the oil cooler and sinking heat into the oil pan.
Micron ratings are important, but very confusing to someone who isn't aware. Most often you will see data in the "Nominal Micron Rating" category. There's way more to talk about than I care to type out... so I'll leave you with this link: Baldwin Filters | Tech Tips
What you're looking for here in an ideal world is an "Absolute rating" number somewhere around 20 at greater than 95%. If you don't get a percentage with your filter rating, assume it's a nominal rating. In my opinion, anything other than an absolute rating is a waste and that information can be ignored. It's like saying a hockey goalie is 25% effective if he just stands there since his body blocks 25% of the goal. You are only interested in the smallest size particle that the filter can effectively filter out nearly 100% of the time. I got bad news for the W950/4 crowd, it's absolute rating is 50 microns! That's the size of a human hair. Most dust is smaller than 40 microns, so it'll take a few passes through the 50 micron absolute filter before the particles are captured. Meanwhile the guy with the cheaper Wix 51515 is filtering down to 21 micron absolute.
As far as getting a bigger filter because it holds more oil... yet it is less effective at filtering? Why?
Some oil filters that are "extended life" filters (10k+ mile changes) using different materials that have more surface area in order to trap particles. These really aren't needed as anyone on here should be able to swap their filter relatively quickly. Not to mention the Amsoil EA026 costs ~$20. You can buy four Wix 51515's for that!
Here's some data that I have collected, all micron ratings are absolute. I didn't log where I had found the data but often it was from manufacturer catalogs or product data sheets from the manufacturer.
Anything red in the micron rating is greater than 32 micron absolute. T-Volume is theoretical volume, simply the diameter time the length times pi. This was just a quick way to compare sizes and isn't representative of the amount of oil that the filter could actually hold.
If you **** money and demand excellence, I'd recommend the Amsoil EA026 all day long.
If you're a normal person and just want an oil filter that works and doesn't cost an arm and a leg, Wix 51515. If it's not in stock, grab a Wix 51459 or Napa 1459 - same same. If not those, grab a Motorcraft FL1A, everyone should have that in stock. I've not tried it but just make sure the o-ring mates up so it doesn't leak. The Motorcraft has a slightly higher bypass pressure, but that shouldn't matter unless you're running 15w+ in the winter.
So, what I'm really wondering is why people put so much emphasis on their oil filter... but nobody has said jack **** about their air filter. How do you think all of the dirt gets into the oil anyways?
The following 5 users liked this post by xathor:
Banzai Jimmy (10-27-2019),
dr. mordo (10-28-2019),
JUKE179r (10-19-2018),
The Deputy (10-19-2018),
Wesley Lueders (10-23-2018)
#256
10-18-2018, 09:08 PM
WIX 1515 oil filter same as NAPA Gold -- NAPA rebrands Wix' offering under their own label. The Wix 1515 is the same item as the NAPA Gold 1515 -- alas, very same part numbers -- and can often be found at a discount. Much gratitude to all contributing to this thread I have learned a lot. Was using FRAM. Took one apart, they are indeed garbage.
2004 Disco SE
What a great truck!
G'Bless u all and THANKS!!
2004 Disco SE
What a great truck!
G'Bless u all and THANKS!!
Last edited by tres_amigos; 10-18-2018 at 09:12 PM. Reason: grammatical error
#258
10-19-2018, 02:34 PM
WIX / NAPA part 51411 / 1411
It has the same bypass pressure rating as the 51515 recommended in post #255, but it is larger and higher volume. It is rated for 25 microns rather than 21 because it uses cellulose rather than enhanced cellulose. I believe a 25 micron rating is sufficient and the author of post #255 also recommended two other 25 micron filters as alternatives. To answer the question inquiring why one would use a larger filter that holds more oil but is less effective at filtering: A greater total oil capacity provides a larger volume for contaminants to be suspended in. 25 micron-size contaminants suspended in oil do not present a danger to the engine -- until the oil is saturated and they begin to form deposits. A larger volume of oil will keep more contaminants suspended before they start forming deposits. In fact, this explains why there are filters like the 50 micron Mann filters. Those filters are only intended to filter large particles and the engines are protected from deposits of smaller particles by using much larger oil capacities. The engines they're specified for often hold 40 quarts of oil. Land Rover fitted the V8's in their vehicles with low-capacity oil pans, perhaps to provide ground-clearance. I think they only hold 6 quarts and that there is some additional capacity where oil coolers are fitted. As you can see from the chart in post #255, the larger, non-standard oil filters can add more than a quart of oil capacity. That's an increase in oil capacity greater than 15%. The NAPA 1411 filter has a larger volume than all the filters in the chart and can increase the oil capacity by as much as 20%. The increase versus the 1515 is less and it would be up to you to decide whether you prefer the smaller micron rating of enhanced cellulose or a slightly greater increase in total capacity. If you do prefer the 51515 / 1515, consider instead the NAPA 41515 -- it is the same but with synthetic filter media that is claimed to have "100% greater dirt holding capacity than NAPA Gold" (enhanced cellulose).
Comparing the larger 1411 to the longer 1459, the 1411 is not so long that it interferes with my re-located steering damper on the drag-link (the factory location on the tie rod gets damaged too easily), and yet the 1411 has higher capacity than the 1459 because it has a much larger diameter.
Also, I don't believe most oil contaminants come through the air filter. While some contaminants are liquid, such as water, if we focus just on what an oil filter can trap, a lot of it is metal from normal wear and carbon and other combustion solids blown past the rings.
It has the same bypass pressure rating as the 51515 recommended in post #255, but it is larger and higher volume. It is rated for 25 microns rather than 21 because it uses cellulose rather than enhanced cellulose. I believe a 25 micron rating is sufficient and the author of post #255 also recommended two other 25 micron filters as alternatives. To answer the question inquiring why one would use a larger filter that holds more oil but is less effective at filtering: A greater total oil capacity provides a larger volume for contaminants to be suspended in. 25 micron-size contaminants suspended in oil do not present a danger to the engine -- until the oil is saturated and they begin to form deposits. A larger volume of oil will keep more contaminants suspended before they start forming deposits. In fact, this explains why there are filters like the 50 micron Mann filters. Those filters are only intended to filter large particles and the engines are protected from deposits of smaller particles by using much larger oil capacities. The engines they're specified for often hold 40 quarts of oil. Land Rover fitted the V8's in their vehicles with low-capacity oil pans, perhaps to provide ground-clearance. I think they only hold 6 quarts and that there is some additional capacity where oil coolers are fitted. As you can see from the chart in post #255, the larger, non-standard oil filters can add more than a quart of oil capacity. That's an increase in oil capacity greater than 15%. The NAPA 1411 filter has a larger volume than all the filters in the chart and can increase the oil capacity by as much as 20%. The increase versus the 1515 is less and it would be up to you to decide whether you prefer the smaller micron rating of enhanced cellulose or a slightly greater increase in total capacity. If you do prefer the 51515 / 1515, consider instead the NAPA 41515 -- it is the same but with synthetic filter media that is claimed to have "100% greater dirt holding capacity than NAPA Gold" (enhanced cellulose).
Comparing the larger 1411 to the longer 1459, the 1411 is not so long that it interferes with my re-located steering damper on the drag-link (the factory location on the tie rod gets damaged too easily), and yet the 1411 has higher capacity than the 1459 because it has a much larger diameter.
Also, I don't believe most oil contaminants come through the air filter. While some contaminants are liquid, such as water, if we focus just on what an oil filter can trap, a lot of it is metal from normal wear and carbon and other combustion solids blown past the rings.
Last edited by nathanb; 10-19-2018 at 03:16 PM.
#260
10-19-2018, 05:19 PM
That is true, 1411 has no anti-drain-back valve. The value of an anti drain back valve is uncertain but doubtful to me. If the oil pump is any good, oil will not quickly drain back through the pump, so I don't see the anti drain back valve protecting drainback of anything when the pump is located between the sump and the filter. Here is a diagram of the Rover V8's oil pathway:
It seems like oil would have to drain from the filter, back through the oil cooler, and through the oil pump before there is any space for oil to drain back from the galleries. Since the vacuum in the sump pick-up tube will be broken on the uptake side of the pump before it can siphon through the 0.004" tolerance of the pump gear, it would also have to drain back against gravity.
It seems like oil would have to drain from the filter, back through the oil cooler, and through the oil pump before there is any space for oil to drain back from the galleries. Since the vacuum in the sump pick-up tube will be broken on the uptake side of the pump before it can siphon through the 0.004" tolerance of the pump gear, it would also have to drain back against gravity.
Last edited by nathanb; 10-19-2018 at 06:51 PM.