First time had someone else work on my DII
#1
09-28-2012, 01:04 PM
First time had someone else work on my DII
Very happy to not have to get in under the hood for once. Would I do it all the time? Probably not. But for things that I just don't feel like doing myself? Possibly.
Things done/replaced:
About $700 parts and labor.
On average, lowered temps by about 5 degrees F. But at least I now feel better, because the water pump was still the original!
Local used to be 208.4. Now 201 to 204.8 (206.6 uphill/load)
Idle used to be 210-212. Now about 204 to 206.
Highway used to be 204.8. Now about 199-203.
I'll change the radiator after this Winter. This one's probably gunked up.
-Anthony
Things done/replaced:
- Throttle body heater and gasket (OEM)
- Throttle body heater hoses
- Thermo (OEM)
- Expansion tank to rad hose
- Expansion tank to thermo hose
- Serp belt (w/out ACE)
- Coolant/water pump
- Flushed coolant and refill
About $700 parts and labor.
On average, lowered temps by about 5 degrees F. But at least I now feel better, because the water pump was still the original!
Local used to be 208.4. Now 201 to 204.8 (206.6 uphill/load)
Idle used to be 210-212. Now about 204 to 206.
Highway used to be 204.8. Now about 199-203.
I'll change the radiator after this Winter. This one's probably gunked up.
-Anthony
#2
09-28-2012, 01:46 PM
Very happy to not have to get in under the hood for once. Would I do it all the time? Probably not. But for things that I just don't feel like doing myself? Possibly.
Things done/replaced:
About $700 parts and labor.
On average, lowered temps by about 5 degrees F. But at least I now feel better, because the water pump was still the original!
Local used to be 208.4. Now 201 to 204.8 (206.6 uphill/load)
Idle used to be 210-212. Now about 204 to 206.
Highway used to be 204.8. Now about 199-203.
I'll change the radiator after this Winter. This one's probably gunked up.
-Anthony
Things done/replaced:
- Throttle body heater and gasket (OEM)
- Throttle body heater hoses
- Thermo (OEM)
- Expansion tank to rad hose
- Expansion tank to thermo hose
- Serp belt (w/out ACE)
- Coolant/water pump
- Flushed coolant and refill
About $700 parts and labor.
On average, lowered temps by about 5 degrees F. But at least I now feel better, because the water pump was still the original!
Local used to be 208.4. Now 201 to 204.8 (206.6 uphill/load)
Idle used to be 210-212. Now about 204 to 206.
Highway used to be 204.8. Now about 199-203.
I'll change the radiator after this Winter. This one's probably gunked up.
-Anthony
#3
09-28-2012, 06:18 PM
Good to know. I'm happy with it. The best part is, because the throttle body heater was the only source of my coolant loss, I no longer have that sweet coolant burning smell when I walk around the front of the car.
Confession: I'm still running Dexcool. The way I see it, it lasted 116K with Dexcool with a PO that obviously didn't do sh*t to the car. It can last another 116K with an owner who's on top of things.
Maybe I'll change it when I swap the radiator in the Spring. Maybe not.
Confession: I'm still running Dexcool. The way I see it, it lasted 116K with Dexcool with a PO that obviously didn't do sh*t to the car. It can last another 116K with an owner who's on top of things.
Maybe I'll change it when I swap the radiator in the Spring. Maybe not.
#6
09-28-2012, 10:08 PM
I'm not digging into the heads out of fear. I'll dig into them out of necessity.
-Anthony
#7
09-29-2012, 12:39 AM
I still run Dexcool in the D2 by Prestone.
I run it in the D1 too..
It’s been nearly 15 years since General Motors introduced Dex-Cool, one of the first long-life coolants for automobiles. Hailed as revolutionary when launched, the orange-tinted Dex-Cool was night-and-day different from traditional green-tinted (in most cases) coolants, and the change left more than a few fast lube operators scratching their heads and wondering what to do.
It would be nice to report that the ensuing years have seen a simplification of coolant types and technologies, but such is not the case. Like other automotive functional fluids (namely automatic transmission fluid and, to a lesser extent, motor oil), coolants have continued to grow both in capability and complexity.
Coolant: A Primer
Most modern automotive coolant consists of three components: ethylene glycol (EG), water and a chemical additives package of corrosion inhibitors. (Some coolants do use the less-toxic propylene glycol, or PG, in their formulation, as ethylene glycol can be poisonous to humans and animals, alike — though no one recommends you go out and drink a gallon of PG coolant!) Surprising as it may seem, the two basic ingredients, EG and water, have remained basically the same for decades.
Traditional “green” coolant used what is known as inorganic acid technology (IAT) as the basis for its corrosion inhibitor package. These inorganic acids, mostly consisting of phosphates and silicates, protect cooling systems from corrosion. The problem with IAT, however, was that over time the inhibitors would deplete, meaning the coolant needed to be replaced. Most automakers called for replacement intervals of two years or 30,000 miles.
In the early 1990s, automakers began clamoring for coolants that would last longer. Extended life was the goal, and to meet said goal coolant formulators turned to something called organic acid technology (OAT, which is sometimes referred to as organic additive technology, since the inhibitors are salts derived from the reaction of an organic acid with a sodium or potassium cation base, and thus do not contain any free acide). One of the first such products to make it to market was the aforementioned Dex-Cool, which uses a carboxylate salt to coat the inside of a vehicle’s cooling system to prevent the ions that promote corrosion from attaching to the metal. In addition to providing better heat transfer compared with traditional coolants, perhaps the biggest advantage OAT coolants offered were their longer lives.
Because the organic acid corrosion inhibitors in the coolant do not deplete, the coolant fulfills its mission for a much longer lifespan. GM began using Dex-Cool as a factory fill in 1995 year model vehicles with coolant service intervals of five years or 100,000 miles for its vehicles. This was later increased to 150,000 miles and remains there today.
Other automakers like Volkswagen also adopted OAT coolants, but cross-contamination was an early, and unattractive, problem. Scores of fast lube operators reported servicing GM vehicles with “brown” coolant, a result of mixing the orange-dyed Dex-Cool with traditional green coolant.
For more information about coolant color, click here or here. Still other automakers sought a compromise in coolant technology by using coolants formulated with something called hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT). Essentially a carefully blended mixture of both inorganic and organic acids, HOAT coolants offered the compound-specific protection afforded with inorganic acids plus the extended service life afforded by organic acids. Following GM’s lead, automakers like Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Volvo and others soon adopted HOAT coolants. Things became really confusing, however, when automakers worked with their coolant suppliers to dye their coolants specific colors. Ford uses a yellow dye for its HOAT coolant, while Chrysler uses an orange dye for its coolant. Gone were the days when a fast lube technician could easily identify the type of coolant in a vehicle simply by its color.
To compound matters, Asian manufacturers came out with their own extended-life coolant formulations. Because certain locations in Europe may have unusually “hard” water, European OEMs do not use phosphate in their HOAT coolants (as phosphate will cause scale deposits to form when mixed with hard water). Because most Asian markets did not have this problem, many Asian HOAT coolants were blended with phosphates, making them incompatible with European and, to an extent, American HOAT coolants. (Japanese HOAT compounds are more chemically similar to OAT coolants than American HOAT coolants — and in case you were wondering, Toyota dyes their HOAT coolant red, while Honda dyes theirs dark green and blue.)
Incidentally, propylene glycol-based coolant can be formulated with any of the three major corrosion inhibitor technologies, meaning you can have a PG-based IAT, OAT or HOAT coolant.
According to Fred Alverson, an antifreeze/coolant advisor for Shell Global Solutions, coolant has four main functions: heat transfer, boil-over protection, freeze protection and corrosion protection. Sounds simple enough, but because automakers use no fewer than six types of metal (aluminum, brass, copper, lead, steel and iron) inside automotive engines and cooling systems, along with an even wider array of seal compounds, coolant formulators have to account for vast differences in corrosion characteristics.
Though OAT and HOAT coolants have been on the market for more than a decade (and automakers have not used IAT coolants as factory fill for an almost equal amount of time), according to Dr. David Turcotte, a technical director in charge of coolant formulation at The Valvoline Company, some 56 percent of the vehicles on the road today still use IAT coolants, while 34 percent use an OAT-type coolant like Dex-Cool and 10 percent use an HOAT-type coolant. The wide array of coolants in the 200-million-gallon-per-year market for these products presents a quandary for fast lube operators, who must choose what types of coolant to keep in stock. Which brings up our next point.
The Great Debate
As a lube operator, should you keep all three general types of coolant in stock? Should you go as far as to use only OEM fluids, stocking literally dozens of coolant types? Or, should you simply stock one of the growing number of coolants that claim to work in all automotive cooling systems? It’s a tricky question, one with many answers — not all of which agree.
“You have to look at and follow the OEM guidelines,” said Turcotte. “So-called ‘universal’ coolants have applications in about one-third of vehicles, but they shouldn’t be used in the other two-thirds.”
According to Turcotte, many universal coolants use OAT formulations, which have been contra-indicated by Ford in several service bulletins.
“Ford has a number of concerns regarding these universal coolants,” he said. “They’re a trade off between simplicity and doing what the vehicle needs. If you use a universal coolant in the wrong application, there may not be an immediate problem, but the long-term corrosion protection can break down. Over time, the coolant system may develop leaks or solid plugs. Consumers often blame problems on component failure, when the real problem was they used the wrong coolant.”
Turcotte said chemicals in coolant are like spices in cookies. What kind of cookies you get out of the oven depends on what kind of ingredients you put in the batter.
“You really should follow the owners manual guidelines. Coolant is engineered specifically to ensure that the chemicals are compatible with the materials inside an engine. If you put in a different coolant, you can’t guarantee it will be compatible. Coolant has to work 100 percent of the time, because even if it doesn’t work 1 percent of the time, it can allow corrosion to form,” he said, adding that given the very high costs associated with cooling system repairs, it’s a risk he would not advise taking. “Choose the coolant you know will work.”
One of the challenges Turcotte said companies face is educating both consumers and installers alike about the dangers of cooling system corrosion.
“People don’t understand cooling system corrosion because it’s all internal. You can’t see it,” he said.
Carman Ulabarro, a coolant marketing specialist with Chevron Products Company, agreed — to an extent.
“Each major automotive OEM in the United States uses different formulations. They have chosen the formulation to address their equipment. Chevron recommends that the OEM’s recommendations be followed as to the fluids being installed,” she said. “A universal antifreeze is more of a compromise to prevent having to use three or four different fluids. Long-term use of universal antifreezes will determine if there are any issues.”
While Alverson agreed that there is no universal coolant that will meet all OEM specifications, he said that there are universal coolants that have been carefully formulated to provide satisfactory performance in a wide variety of engines and cooling systems. The suppliers of these products have generally conducted extensive laboratory testing and fleet testing on mixtures of universal coolants with existing coolants to substantiate these claims. Universal coolants are available in the marketplace that, according to Alverson, may be used for top-off during servicing of vehicles at fast lube operations. This provides the advantage of stocking only one product.
“It is suggested that the coolant suppliers’ recommendations on universal coolants be followed on the application, use and mixing of these products with other types of coolants,” he said.
One thing most of the product experts we spoke with could agree on was the importance of not judging coolant by its color.
“OEMs partner with coolant manufacturers to come up with their coolants,” Alverson said. “There is no industry standard for coolant color specifications.”
The notion was seconded by Ulabarro.
“Color should never be used to determine what formulation the jug might contain, since there are no color standards that are followed by antifreeze suppliers,” she said.
Another caveat the product experts sounded was mixing two different types of chemistries, or topping off an unknown coolant type with a non-universal product.
“It’s best practice not to mix different types of coolant, like OAT and HOAT or IAT,” Alverson said. “When you mix them, it dilutes the corrosion inhibitor packages of both coolants, making them each less effective.”
Turcotte said you have to match the chemistry of the coolant.
“When automakers went to long-life coolants, they selected specific chemistries in their antifreeze. The best thing you can do at the retail store level is match what the automaker installed,” he said. “It’s a confusing system, but it’s not going away.”
One of the worst things an installer can do is to mix EG and PG coolants, as the two are not compatible.
“From a base fluid perspective, we never recommend mixing ethylene glycol coolants with propylene glycol fluids, since PG fluids carry a low toxicity claim while EG fluids are very toxic,” Ulabarro said. “In addition, PG and EG fluids have very different freeze points and viscosities.”
Another urban myth we’ve heard from time to time in the fast lube business is that once you’ve flushed the old coolant from a vehicle, you can install whatever coolant type you have on hand. Once again, the product experts with whom we spoke did not recommend this course of action.
“I’d take the conservative approach and use an OEM fluid or a comparable product meeting the OEM specification,” said Alverson. “OEMs design their cooling systems differently and use different materials in their construction. They specify coolants that they believe best meet their performance requirements.”
Ulabarro said the vehicle’s warranty could be at stake.
“As an installer, you must consider how the cooling system warranty will be affected if the correct coolant is not used to refill the system,” she said. “It’s best to use the OEM’s recommended coolant that supports (the vehicle’s) cooling systems and engine.”
I run it in the D1 too..
It’s been nearly 15 years since General Motors introduced Dex-Cool, one of the first long-life coolants for automobiles. Hailed as revolutionary when launched, the orange-tinted Dex-Cool was night-and-day different from traditional green-tinted (in most cases) coolants, and the change left more than a few fast lube operators scratching their heads and wondering what to do.
It would be nice to report that the ensuing years have seen a simplification of coolant types and technologies, but such is not the case. Like other automotive functional fluids (namely automatic transmission fluid and, to a lesser extent, motor oil), coolants have continued to grow both in capability and complexity.
Coolant: A Primer
Most modern automotive coolant consists of three components: ethylene glycol (EG), water and a chemical additives package of corrosion inhibitors. (Some coolants do use the less-toxic propylene glycol, or PG, in their formulation, as ethylene glycol can be poisonous to humans and animals, alike — though no one recommends you go out and drink a gallon of PG coolant!) Surprising as it may seem, the two basic ingredients, EG and water, have remained basically the same for decades.
Traditional “green” coolant used what is known as inorganic acid technology (IAT) as the basis for its corrosion inhibitor package. These inorganic acids, mostly consisting of phosphates and silicates, protect cooling systems from corrosion. The problem with IAT, however, was that over time the inhibitors would deplete, meaning the coolant needed to be replaced. Most automakers called for replacement intervals of two years or 30,000 miles.
In the early 1990s, automakers began clamoring for coolants that would last longer. Extended life was the goal, and to meet said goal coolant formulators turned to something called organic acid technology (OAT, which is sometimes referred to as organic additive technology, since the inhibitors are salts derived from the reaction of an organic acid with a sodium or potassium cation base, and thus do not contain any free acide). One of the first such products to make it to market was the aforementioned Dex-Cool, which uses a carboxylate salt to coat the inside of a vehicle’s cooling system to prevent the ions that promote corrosion from attaching to the metal. In addition to providing better heat transfer compared with traditional coolants, perhaps the biggest advantage OAT coolants offered were their longer lives.
Because the organic acid corrosion inhibitors in the coolant do not deplete, the coolant fulfills its mission for a much longer lifespan. GM began using Dex-Cool as a factory fill in 1995 year model vehicles with coolant service intervals of five years or 100,000 miles for its vehicles. This was later increased to 150,000 miles and remains there today.
Other automakers like Volkswagen also adopted OAT coolants, but cross-contamination was an early, and unattractive, problem. Scores of fast lube operators reported servicing GM vehicles with “brown” coolant, a result of mixing the orange-dyed Dex-Cool with traditional green coolant.
For more information about coolant color, click here or here. Still other automakers sought a compromise in coolant technology by using coolants formulated with something called hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT). Essentially a carefully blended mixture of both inorganic and organic acids, HOAT coolants offered the compound-specific protection afforded with inorganic acids plus the extended service life afforded by organic acids. Following GM’s lead, automakers like Ford, Chrysler, BMW, Volvo and others soon adopted HOAT coolants. Things became really confusing, however, when automakers worked with their coolant suppliers to dye their coolants specific colors. Ford uses a yellow dye for its HOAT coolant, while Chrysler uses an orange dye for its coolant. Gone were the days when a fast lube technician could easily identify the type of coolant in a vehicle simply by its color.
To compound matters, Asian manufacturers came out with their own extended-life coolant formulations. Because certain locations in Europe may have unusually “hard” water, European OEMs do not use phosphate in their HOAT coolants (as phosphate will cause scale deposits to form when mixed with hard water). Because most Asian markets did not have this problem, many Asian HOAT coolants were blended with phosphates, making them incompatible with European and, to an extent, American HOAT coolants. (Japanese HOAT compounds are more chemically similar to OAT coolants than American HOAT coolants — and in case you were wondering, Toyota dyes their HOAT coolant red, while Honda dyes theirs dark green and blue.)
Incidentally, propylene glycol-based coolant can be formulated with any of the three major corrosion inhibitor technologies, meaning you can have a PG-based IAT, OAT or HOAT coolant.
According to Fred Alverson, an antifreeze/coolant advisor for Shell Global Solutions, coolant has four main functions: heat transfer, boil-over protection, freeze protection and corrosion protection. Sounds simple enough, but because automakers use no fewer than six types of metal (aluminum, brass, copper, lead, steel and iron) inside automotive engines and cooling systems, along with an even wider array of seal compounds, coolant formulators have to account for vast differences in corrosion characteristics.
Though OAT and HOAT coolants have been on the market for more than a decade (and automakers have not used IAT coolants as factory fill for an almost equal amount of time), according to Dr. David Turcotte, a technical director in charge of coolant formulation at The Valvoline Company, some 56 percent of the vehicles on the road today still use IAT coolants, while 34 percent use an OAT-type coolant like Dex-Cool and 10 percent use an HOAT-type coolant. The wide array of coolants in the 200-million-gallon-per-year market for these products presents a quandary for fast lube operators, who must choose what types of coolant to keep in stock. Which brings up our next point.
The Great Debate
As a lube operator, should you keep all three general types of coolant in stock? Should you go as far as to use only OEM fluids, stocking literally dozens of coolant types? Or, should you simply stock one of the growing number of coolants that claim to work in all automotive cooling systems? It’s a tricky question, one with many answers — not all of which agree.
“You have to look at and follow the OEM guidelines,” said Turcotte. “So-called ‘universal’ coolants have applications in about one-third of vehicles, but they shouldn’t be used in the other two-thirds.”
According to Turcotte, many universal coolants use OAT formulations, which have been contra-indicated by Ford in several service bulletins.
“Ford has a number of concerns regarding these universal coolants,” he said. “They’re a trade off between simplicity and doing what the vehicle needs. If you use a universal coolant in the wrong application, there may not be an immediate problem, but the long-term corrosion protection can break down. Over time, the coolant system may develop leaks or solid plugs. Consumers often blame problems on component failure, when the real problem was they used the wrong coolant.”
Turcotte said chemicals in coolant are like spices in cookies. What kind of cookies you get out of the oven depends on what kind of ingredients you put in the batter.
“You really should follow the owners manual guidelines. Coolant is engineered specifically to ensure that the chemicals are compatible with the materials inside an engine. If you put in a different coolant, you can’t guarantee it will be compatible. Coolant has to work 100 percent of the time, because even if it doesn’t work 1 percent of the time, it can allow corrosion to form,” he said, adding that given the very high costs associated with cooling system repairs, it’s a risk he would not advise taking. “Choose the coolant you know will work.”
One of the challenges Turcotte said companies face is educating both consumers and installers alike about the dangers of cooling system corrosion.
“People don’t understand cooling system corrosion because it’s all internal. You can’t see it,” he said.
Carman Ulabarro, a coolant marketing specialist with Chevron Products Company, agreed — to an extent.
“Each major automotive OEM in the United States uses different formulations. They have chosen the formulation to address their equipment. Chevron recommends that the OEM’s recommendations be followed as to the fluids being installed,” she said. “A universal antifreeze is more of a compromise to prevent having to use three or four different fluids. Long-term use of universal antifreezes will determine if there are any issues.”
While Alverson agreed that there is no universal coolant that will meet all OEM specifications, he said that there are universal coolants that have been carefully formulated to provide satisfactory performance in a wide variety of engines and cooling systems. The suppliers of these products have generally conducted extensive laboratory testing and fleet testing on mixtures of universal coolants with existing coolants to substantiate these claims. Universal coolants are available in the marketplace that, according to Alverson, may be used for top-off during servicing of vehicles at fast lube operations. This provides the advantage of stocking only one product.
“It is suggested that the coolant suppliers’ recommendations on universal coolants be followed on the application, use and mixing of these products with other types of coolants,” he said.
One thing most of the product experts we spoke with could agree on was the importance of not judging coolant by its color.
“OEMs partner with coolant manufacturers to come up with their coolants,” Alverson said. “There is no industry standard for coolant color specifications.”
The notion was seconded by Ulabarro.
“Color should never be used to determine what formulation the jug might contain, since there are no color standards that are followed by antifreeze suppliers,” she said.
Another caveat the product experts sounded was mixing two different types of chemistries, or topping off an unknown coolant type with a non-universal product.
“It’s best practice not to mix different types of coolant, like OAT and HOAT or IAT,” Alverson said. “When you mix them, it dilutes the corrosion inhibitor packages of both coolants, making them each less effective.”
Turcotte said you have to match the chemistry of the coolant.
“When automakers went to long-life coolants, they selected specific chemistries in their antifreeze. The best thing you can do at the retail store level is match what the automaker installed,” he said. “It’s a confusing system, but it’s not going away.”
One of the worst things an installer can do is to mix EG and PG coolants, as the two are not compatible.
“From a base fluid perspective, we never recommend mixing ethylene glycol coolants with propylene glycol fluids, since PG fluids carry a low toxicity claim while EG fluids are very toxic,” Ulabarro said. “In addition, PG and EG fluids have very different freeze points and viscosities.”
Another urban myth we’ve heard from time to time in the fast lube business is that once you’ve flushed the old coolant from a vehicle, you can install whatever coolant type you have on hand. Once again, the product experts with whom we spoke did not recommend this course of action.
“I’d take the conservative approach and use an OEM fluid or a comparable product meeting the OEM specification,” said Alverson. “OEMs design their cooling systems differently and use different materials in their construction. They specify coolants that they believe best meet their performance requirements.”
Ulabarro said the vehicle’s warranty could be at stake.
“As an installer, you must consider how the cooling system warranty will be affected if the correct coolant is not used to refill the system,” she said. “It’s best to use the OEM’s recommended coolant that supports (the vehicle’s) cooling systems and engine.”
#8
09-29-2012, 08:22 AM
Hay jfal if you we're right I'd have to agree with you short term your agent orange seems ok for short term but long term it is hard on plastic , and rovers have lots of plastic in their cooling system . Just because its oem doesn't mean it's best . Just means they got the contract . They make lots of long life green antifreeze .we all want are rovers to last forever .every lil bit helps . Remember I have nothing to gain & every thing to lose . I've done the math. I've never lied to you before . Just saying!
