great read..All you ever wanted to know about . . Land Rover V8 Engine Failures
#1
05-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Must read..All you ever wanted to know about . . Land Rover V8 Engine Failures
I posted this in another thread but thought i would share with everyone and give it it's own. Some pretty smart guys with some great information.. Kind of brings things to light...
X Chris
Liner failures in Land Rover V8 engines - what's happening?
by j e robison service co » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:23 am
Land Rover Discovery II overheating engine failure is getting more and more common around here. The "traditional explanation" is that the liners shift within the block and somehow combustion gases get into the coolant. In the early days I know that was true because I saw 1990s engines where the liners dropped slightly into the block. However, LR supposedly fixed that issue, yet the failures continued. In fact, the engines in the last Discovery II models seem to fail at a higher rate than the 1990s models.
I have also seen liner movement blamed for engine noises. Is that accurate?
We recently cut a 2003 Land Rover Discovery engine in half to determine why it failed from overheating. Are the "slipped liners" real or not? I have the writeup and pictures on my car blog at:
http://robisonservice.blogspot.com/2...bout-land.html
http://robisonservice.blogspot.com liners ... scroll down to article
X Chris
Liner failures in Land Rover V8 engines - what's happening?
by j e robison service co » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:23 am Land Rover Discovery II overheating engine failure is getting more and more common around here. The "traditional explanation" is that the liners shift within the block and somehow combustion gases get into the coolant. In the early days I know that was true because I saw 1990s engines where the liners dropped slightly into the block. However, LR supposedly fixed that issue, yet the failures continued. In fact, the engines in the last Discovery II models seem to fail at a higher rate than the 1990s models.
I have also seen liner movement blamed for engine noises. Is that accurate?
We recently cut a 2003 Land Rover Discovery engine in half to determine why it failed from overheating. Are the "slipped liners" real or not? I have the writeup and pictures on my car blog at:
http://robisonservice.blogspot.com/2...bout-land.html
http://robisonservice.blogspot.com liners ... scroll down to article
Last edited by vandev; 05-19-2010 at 06:10 AM.
#2
05-19-2010, 01:15 AM
Recovery Vehicle
Well, that was amazingly informative. It was also about the most depressing thing that I have read about the Land Rover Discovery engines. The good news is that there are many trucks out on the road with tons of miles and a head gasket or two every 80k miles. I hope I am lucky, and only have the head gasket issues and not the engine block failures that Robinson addresses. Thanks for the link.
Phil
Phil
#3
05-19-2010, 05:59 AM
eye opening to say the least....
Well, that was amazingly informative. It was also about the most depressing thing that I have read about the Land Rover Discovery engines. The good news is that there are many trucks out on the road with tons of miles and a head gasket or two every 80k miles. I hope I am lucky, and only have the head gasket issues and not the engine block failures that Robinson addresses. Thanks for the link.
Phil
Phil
Last edited by vandev; 05-19-2010 at 06:06 AM.
#4
05-19-2010, 08:12 AM
Baja
here is an abridged version.
History of the Buick 215 / Bosch engine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE COST OF CUTTING CORNERS
Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cubic-inch (3.5 liters) V-8 motor
The Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cubic-inch (3.5 liters) V-8 motor is one of the most fascinating and long-lived engines in automotive history. Originally conceived as an economy powerplant for GM mid-size cars, the "215" has been built in both the US and Great Britain, and has powered an astonishing array of vehicles, from sedans to sports cars, SUVs to racing cars. So, take a closer look at this history of this incredible engine, and check out the high-performance options available to the "215" enthusiast.
Buick 215 history
The Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cubic-inch (3.5 liters) aluminum V8 was originally announced in 1960 as a potential lightweight economy engine destined for General Motors new line of compacts: Buick Skylark, Olds Cutlass and Pontiac Tempest. First appearing in the 1961 model year, production ended in 1963 after over 3/4 million engines were produced. Two versions were available: Buick's model and the Olds, which featured different heads, valve train and valve covers. Pontiac used the Olds version.
The reason production ended so soon was a high rejection rate during the casting process, as GM utilized pressure casting of the Reynolds 356 aluminum alloy around steel sleeves. The assembly was then heat-treated to T-6 condition; but the heat treating caused the steel sleeves to shift and thus rejection of the entire block.
Eventually, GM cured the casting maladies, but the advent of new thin-wall iron casting techniques soon rendered the aluminum motor too expensive. The General quickly adapted the V8's architecture to cast-iron, lopping off two cylinders to create the workhorse Buick V-6. And in 1965, negotiated production rights with the British Rover Cars company. Rover, seeing the motor as its salvation for an aging product line, found that sand casting the block and installing press-in sleeves, (rather than cast in place), at a later point precluded any production problems or costs, but the beginning of longevity issues. This is where the liner issues began. In the Rover mass production techniques, the outer wall of the liner design was changed from a very coarse finish to a fine polished finish, for an easy mass production press fit. The thermal bonding in the cylinder cast in place assembly process, was eliminated completely. This allowed the smooth external walls of the new liners to provide easy installation but allowed the smooth walls to thermally expand at different ratios under the laws of dissimilar materials. Head gasket life would suffer indefinitely and plague this engine throughout its new design.It was destined to never again achieve it’s once robust popularity, as when General motors took the extra time not to cut corners.
The engine went on to power the ancient P5 Rover sedan, then the modern 3500 (a transplant into the 2000 TC), and finally the legendary Range Rover. It continues to power Land Rover products today in 4.6 liter guise.
The first company to realize the 215's performance potential was the exotic Apollo GT, a Ferrari-like sports car styled in America and built in Italy . Only 88 cars were sold before the company went under. The engine also found favor among European racing teams, powering several sports-racing cars (including the original McLaren), and in Repco-modified Olds form, propelling Sir Jack Brabham to two world Formula One championships in the mid 1960s (certainly NOT your father's Oldsmobile!). In 1969, the tiny Morgan company rejuvenated its archaic 1930's-era sports car by injecting it with the Rover V8. Zero-to-60 times of around six seconds were common...
In 1970, MG (now part of the vast British Leyland empire and sister company to Rover) was looking to improve the performance of its MGB sports car. An outsider, Ken Costello, actually showed them how to do it, as he had begun small-scale production of V8-engined MGBs. MG's own version appeared in 1973, just in time for the first oil embargo, and lasted only two years. Only some 2591 cars were produced, all in "hard-top" GT form.
Original 215 configurations
The original 215 aluminum V8 appeared in the Buick Special and Skylark models, while the Old's version was offered in the Olds F-85, Cutlass, and Jetfire models as well as the Pontiac Tempest.
The Buick version used only five bolts per cylinder to mount its heads, and the heads had a combustion chamber following contemporary Buick practice. The heads were also angled "upward" to create a "flat top" look common to Buick engines of the day. Buick altered compression ratios via piston height and design. You can bolt a Buick head to an Olds block.
Olds engineers went their own route with cylinder head design, preferring a Chevy small block-like combustion chamber and an extra bolt (six in all) around each cylinder to mount the head. The valve cover was also more conventional looking. (Ken Costello built his first MGB V8 using an Olds engine picked up in Belgium !). The valve train is also different. Old used different heads with the same pistons to produce higher compression ratios. An Olds head will not work on a Buick block because of the extra head bolts. For performance applications, you'll want either 829 heads (10.25:1 C.R. for '61-'62 4 bbl auto and manual cars, '63 4 bbl manual cars), or 534 heads (10.75:1 '63 4-bbl automatics). Two bbl heads (No. 746) have low compression ratios and aren't suitable for any performance work.
Rover configurations
Managing director William Martin-Hurst purchased the rights to the Buick version of the 215, and set his engineers on improving production techniques. Rover began installing an improved version of the 215 in the ancient P5 Saloon (sedan) in 1967. The same motor was installed in the more modern P6 2000 to create the 3500 (3500 cc or 3.5 liters). It soon found its way into the new Range Rover of the 1970’s.
A 3947 cc unit (created by increasing the bore to 94 mm) appeared in 1988 in the Range Rover, and later in the 1993 Discovery. A 4.2 liter motor soon appeared as the result of a longer-stroke crankshaft. In 1995, Rover launched the 4600 cc engine, using an even longer-stroke crank and a reengineering block with cross-bolted main caps.
Components for early engines are virtually interchangeable with the 215. The 4.6 liter engine, however, is different
History of the Buick 215 / Bosch engine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE COST OF CUTTING CORNERS
Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cubic-inch (3.5 liters) V-8 motor
The Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cubic-inch (3.5 liters) V-8 motor is one of the most fascinating and long-lived engines in automotive history. Originally conceived as an economy powerplant for GM mid-size cars, the "215" has been built in both the US and Great Britain, and has powered an astonishing array of vehicles, from sedans to sports cars, SUVs to racing cars. So, take a closer look at this history of this incredible engine, and check out the high-performance options available to the "215" enthusiast.
Buick 215 history
The Buick/Olds/Rover 215 cubic-inch (3.5 liters) aluminum V8 was originally announced in 1960 as a potential lightweight economy engine destined for General Motors new line of compacts: Buick Skylark, Olds Cutlass and Pontiac Tempest. First appearing in the 1961 model year, production ended in 1963 after over 3/4 million engines were produced. Two versions were available: Buick's model and the Olds, which featured different heads, valve train and valve covers. Pontiac used the Olds version.
The reason production ended so soon was a high rejection rate during the casting process, as GM utilized pressure casting of the Reynolds 356 aluminum alloy around steel sleeves. The assembly was then heat-treated to T-6 condition; but the heat treating caused the steel sleeves to shift and thus rejection of the entire block.
Eventually, GM cured the casting maladies, but the advent of new thin-wall iron casting techniques soon rendered the aluminum motor too expensive. The General quickly adapted the V8's architecture to cast-iron, lopping off two cylinders to create the workhorse Buick V-6. And in 1965, negotiated production rights with the British Rover Cars company. Rover, seeing the motor as its salvation for an aging product line, found that sand casting the block and installing press-in sleeves, (rather than cast in place), at a later point precluded any production problems or costs, but the beginning of longevity issues. This is where the liner issues began. In the Rover mass production techniques, the outer wall of the liner design was changed from a very coarse finish to a fine polished finish, for an easy mass production press fit. The thermal bonding in the cylinder cast in place assembly process, was eliminated completely. This allowed the smooth external walls of the new liners to provide easy installation but allowed the smooth walls to thermally expand at different ratios under the laws of dissimilar materials. Head gasket life would suffer indefinitely and plague this engine throughout its new design.It was destined to never again achieve it’s once robust popularity, as when General motors took the extra time not to cut corners.
The engine went on to power the ancient P5 Rover sedan, then the modern 3500 (a transplant into the 2000 TC), and finally the legendary Range Rover. It continues to power Land Rover products today in 4.6 liter guise.
The first company to realize the 215's performance potential was the exotic Apollo GT, a Ferrari-like sports car styled in America and built in Italy . Only 88 cars were sold before the company went under. The engine also found favor among European racing teams, powering several sports-racing cars (including the original McLaren), and in Repco-modified Olds form, propelling Sir Jack Brabham to two world Formula One championships in the mid 1960s (certainly NOT your father's Oldsmobile!). In 1969, the tiny Morgan company rejuvenated its archaic 1930's-era sports car by injecting it with the Rover V8. Zero-to-60 times of around six seconds were common...
In 1970, MG (now part of the vast British Leyland empire and sister company to Rover) was looking to improve the performance of its MGB sports car. An outsider, Ken Costello, actually showed them how to do it, as he had begun small-scale production of V8-engined MGBs. MG's own version appeared in 1973, just in time for the first oil embargo, and lasted only two years. Only some 2591 cars were produced, all in "hard-top" GT form.
Original 215 configurations
The original 215 aluminum V8 appeared in the Buick Special and Skylark models, while the Old's version was offered in the Olds F-85, Cutlass, and Jetfire models as well as the Pontiac Tempest.
The Buick version used only five bolts per cylinder to mount its heads, and the heads had a combustion chamber following contemporary Buick practice. The heads were also angled "upward" to create a "flat top" look common to Buick engines of the day. Buick altered compression ratios via piston height and design. You can bolt a Buick head to an Olds block.
Olds engineers went their own route with cylinder head design, preferring a Chevy small block-like combustion chamber and an extra bolt (six in all) around each cylinder to mount the head. The valve cover was also more conventional looking. (Ken Costello built his first MGB V8 using an Olds engine picked up in Belgium !). The valve train is also different. Old used different heads with the same pistons to produce higher compression ratios. An Olds head will not work on a Buick block because of the extra head bolts. For performance applications, you'll want either 829 heads (10.25:1 C.R. for '61-'62 4 bbl auto and manual cars, '63 4 bbl manual cars), or 534 heads (10.75:1 '63 4-bbl automatics). Two bbl heads (No. 746) have low compression ratios and aren't suitable for any performance work.
Rover configurations
Managing director William Martin-Hurst purchased the rights to the Buick version of the 215, and set his engineers on improving production techniques. Rover began installing an improved version of the 215 in the ancient P5 Saloon (sedan) in 1967. The same motor was installed in the more modern P6 2000 to create the 3500 (3500 cc or 3.5 liters). It soon found its way into the new Range Rover of the 1970’s.
A 3947 cc unit (created by increasing the bore to 94 mm) appeared in 1988 in the Range Rover, and later in the 1993 Discovery. A 4.2 liter motor soon appeared as the result of a longer-stroke crankshaft. In 1995, Rover launched the 4600 cc engine, using an even longer-stroke crank and a reengineering block with cross-bolted main caps.
Components for early engines are virtually interchangeable with the 215. The 4.6 liter engine, however, is different
#5
05-19-2010, 03:58 PM
I still don't understand how people can still recommend Dex-Cool? I have read many other post/articles/blogs that report Dex-Cool's highly corrosive attributes. With all of the other problems these motors have I have to say that it makes more sense to me to eliminate something as simple as a fluid that can cause massive damage over the life of the engine. Even with Dex-Cool being changed at the recommended 30k I would find it hard to believe that it would completely eliminate the problem. The cooling systems on these motors are swiss cheese with more than one common failure point, these things suck air in every time they cool down!!
#6
05-19-2010, 10:29 PM
#7
05-20-2010, 01:45 PM
thanks
I didnt write it but i sleep very well now knowing i do drive a pile of Sh^%t and there isnt some unique problem causing my overheating. It is just a plain POS... It is basiclly a dressed up grenade... and they new it all along... They should be in prision..
It's almost as bad as the front driveshaft...rebuild it or have it explode! WTF.. I can tell you that happens on other cars or trucks but it doesnt... And have to grease it every oill change....WTF....Can you give me another thing to worry about on my truck???? i only have a 6 page list... I am surprised know one has ever taken a driveshaft and gone down to LR of america and started beating on someone with it... It's embarassing...
#8
05-20-2010, 01:56 PM
Camel Trophy
Every car has its downfall. My truck is fastly approaching 195K. Runs great. I know many that have gone past 200 with no problems. Maybe a head gasket here and there, but imagine the mileage if it was an iron block... All aluminum blocks have some downfall because of the dis-similar metals.
Imagine how quick the front shafts would fail if they were servicable and people didn't.. Most people do not perform the maintenance they should. Most cars are manufactured the same way, they just won't grenade a tranny if they fail. The whole reason you should get on forums and find the quirks before you buy something used.
Imagine how quick the front shafts would fail if they were servicable and people didn't.. Most people do not perform the maintenance they should. Most cars are manufactured the same way, they just won't grenade a tranny if they fail. The whole reason you should get on forums and find the quirks before you buy something used.
