New engine, High coolant temps on scangauge
#21
09-16-2018, 12:39 PM
Pro Wrench
#22
09-16-2018, 02:17 PM
I was under the opinion that these temps are likely pretty close to what a stock Discovery with a stock thermostat would be running, but I could be wrong. If this is way hotter, I would be more inclined to talk to the shop about it. To be clear, the truck is not overheating in the sense that the gauge never moves from the middle and you can drive it long and hard without it boiling over or anything.
I understand this is less than optimal and that is why I have parts on order, and planning on troubleshooting before I do any more driving.
What would you say to the shop if it were you?
Last edited by Jason_B; 09-16-2018 at 02:55 PM.
#23
09-16-2018, 11:34 PM
First of all, thank you!
If you don't mind, where specifically did you temp on the engine or cooling system? Some options I tired are: manifold, heater outlet tube, coolant outlet tube (j-pipe).
I shot my laser/IR/I'm not sure how it works as close as I could to the sensor, on the lower manifold, shooting at an awkward angle. The rigid, black pipe exiting the lower manifold (I think; my memory is hazy on what it connects to) on the front passenger side of the engine should also yield a fairly accurate result.
The radiator is brand new. The temps I provided is actually with the heat on, to keep temps as low as possible while debugging. At idle, the AC makes no difference in temps.
No fancy grill, stock looking fan (mechanical with clutch on back of radiator and smaller fan on front);
Does the small pusher fan come on?
I do not think I have an oil cooler. I added a sandwich plate style on my WRX, I wonder if I could do the same here. I would love the peace of mind to keep everything cool. I am all in at this point so lets do it!
The Disco II transmission and oil coolers have the same fittings and there should be places for them to mount on your existing radiator. You can just get a used one. Abran is a member and would probably have one. You would also need the in / out hoses that go where your engine has removable plugs. I don't like the idea of not having an oil cooler or heat exchanger of some kind; your coolant does double duty if you dont have something else cooling the oil.
In regards to the 113 / 190 difference between bottom and top of thermostat. I see two potential explanations here:
Theory 1: The temp sensor is bad. The engine really is running around 195-200 when the scan gauge says 215. Because of this, the thermostat is barely open and thus, the lower hose from the radiator is cool and the upper hose remains relatively warm. Once the temp gets to 205 (reading 220) the thermostat is fully open and temps stabilize.
Theory 2: The thermostat is slow to open and the temp sensor is more or less correct. The thermostat is letting just enough cool water from the bottom through to prevent overheating, but it slow to open or only partially opening. This would explain why the upper hose into the water pump is always quite warm. This does not explain why the IR thermometer reads so low.
You will know for sure when you swap thermostats. I always boil mine, too, because I don't trust them.
In any case, thanks for thinking this through with me.
Does anyone know how I can verify if the temp sensor is correct with a meat / candy thermometer?
Not sure about that one...
I have a new temp sensor and 2 180 thermostats on order. I will boil them in water, put on the one that opens first, and then boil the old one when it comes off to see if that makes any difference. I suppose I should only change out the temp sensor first for science. We will see if I am that careful
If you don't mind, where specifically did you temp on the engine or cooling system? Some options I tired are: manifold, heater outlet tube, coolant outlet tube (j-pipe).
I shot my laser/IR/I'm not sure how it works as close as I could to the sensor, on the lower manifold, shooting at an awkward angle. The rigid, black pipe exiting the lower manifold (I think; my memory is hazy on what it connects to) on the front passenger side of the engine should also yield a fairly accurate result.
The radiator is brand new. The temps I provided is actually with the heat on, to keep temps as low as possible while debugging. At idle, the AC makes no difference in temps.
No fancy grill, stock looking fan (mechanical with clutch on back of radiator and smaller fan on front);
Does the small pusher fan come on?
I do not think I have an oil cooler. I added a sandwich plate style on my WRX, I wonder if I could do the same here. I would love the peace of mind to keep everything cool. I am all in at this point so lets do it!
The Disco II transmission and oil coolers have the same fittings and there should be places for them to mount on your existing radiator. You can just get a used one. Abran is a member and would probably have one. You would also need the in / out hoses that go where your engine has removable plugs. I don't like the idea of not having an oil cooler or heat exchanger of some kind; your coolant does double duty if you dont have something else cooling the oil.
In regards to the 113 / 190 difference between bottom and top of thermostat. I see two potential explanations here:
Theory 1: The temp sensor is bad. The engine really is running around 195-200 when the scan gauge says 215. Because of this, the thermostat is barely open and thus, the lower hose from the radiator is cool and the upper hose remains relatively warm. Once the temp gets to 205 (reading 220) the thermostat is fully open and temps stabilize.
Theory 2: The thermostat is slow to open and the temp sensor is more or less correct. The thermostat is letting just enough cool water from the bottom through to prevent overheating, but it slow to open or only partially opening. This would explain why the upper hose into the water pump is always quite warm. This does not explain why the IR thermometer reads so low.
You will know for sure when you swap thermostats. I always boil mine, too, because I don't trust them.
In any case, thanks for thinking this through with me.
Does anyone know how I can verify if the temp sensor is correct with a meat / candy thermometer?
Not sure about that one...
I have a new temp sensor and 2 180 thermostats on order. I will boil them in water, put on the one that opens first, and then boil the old one when it comes off to see if that makes any difference. I suppose I should only change out the temp sensor first for science. We will see if I am that careful
Last edited by Charlie_V; 09-16-2018 at 11:38 PM.
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Jason_B (09-16-2018)
#24
09-16-2018, 11:46 PM
These temps are close to normal for stock thermostat and cooling system, right? This is a learning experience for me. I suppose I could say "I want the truck running much cooler, please accomplish this" to them, but then they are going to charge parts and labor when I can do that myself, with the help of the forum.
I was under the opinion that these temps are likely pretty close to what a stock Discovery with a stock thermostat would be running, but I could be wrong. If this is way hotter, I would be more inclined to talk to the shop about it. To be clear, the truck is not overheating in the sense that the gauge never moves from the middle and you can drive it long and hard without it boiling over or anything.
I understand this is less than optimal and that is why I have parts on order, and planning on troubleshooting before I do any more driving.
What would you say to the shop if it were you?
I was under the opinion that these temps are likely pretty close to what a stock Discovery with a stock thermostat would be running, but I could be wrong. If this is way hotter, I would be more inclined to talk to the shop about it. To be clear, the truck is not overheating in the sense that the gauge never moves from the middle and you can drive it long and hard without it boiling over or anything.
I understand this is less than optimal and that is why I have parts on order, and planning on troubleshooting before I do any more driving.
What would you say to the shop if it were you?
With a new engine and new radiator, I think those temps are too high, but I don't think it is caused by anything in the engine (or radiator). And I'm not yet sure (nor are you) that they are your true temps.
You're in the right track. You don't need a shop to fix it.
#25
09-17-2018, 07:37 AM
Recovery Vehicle
from what i've read, and i'm also NOT a mechanic, engines can and will run a little hotter during the break-in period as all the parts settle into place.
at least this was the case with my rebuilt, air-cooled VW engine. apples to rib-eye comparison, i know but there must be some overlap, right?
at least this was the case with my rebuilt, air-cooled VW engine. apples to rib-eye comparison, i know but there must be some overlap, right?
#26
09-17-2018, 07:59 AM
TReK
My new Turner ran 204-208 when new.
Good idea not driving it, put in a 180 degree thermostat. Fill with coolant using the Rave procedure, let it cool completely. Re-bleed. Run it up to 200. Let it cool. Top off, and test drive.
This is would be my recommendation.
i would not accept anything above 210 as normal operating temp. Maybe with a trailer and loaded to the gills, up an incline the temps should climb there, but in 95 degree heat my temps got to 209 briefly up a long long incline going 75 mph. Otherwise, 198-200, less in cooler temps.
it is possible that you have a bad fan clutch. It’s easy enough to get a different fan clutch from Autozone to test it.
I had a thermostat issue after HG job, and it is frustrating. I really doubt it is your sensor, and consider the online thermostat mod if you can return your thermostats. I wish I had done it.
Good idea not driving it, put in a 180 degree thermostat. Fill with coolant using the Rave procedure, let it cool completely. Re-bleed. Run it up to 200. Let it cool. Top off, and test drive.
This is would be my recommendation.
i would not accept anything above 210 as normal operating temp. Maybe with a trailer and loaded to the gills, up an incline the temps should climb there, but in 95 degree heat my temps got to 209 briefly up a long long incline going 75 mph. Otherwise, 198-200, less in cooler temps.
it is possible that you have a bad fan clutch. It’s easy enough to get a different fan clutch from Autozone to test it.
I had a thermostat issue after HG job, and it is frustrating. I really doubt it is your sensor, and consider the online thermostat mod if you can return your thermostats. I wish I had done it.
#27
09-17-2018, 11:43 AM
These trucks were designed to run up to 220 to meet US emissions standards. It's just how it was/is and has nothing to do with what you would accept as normal.
Of course we here who don't have government regulations to satisfy on a corporate scale can see the flaw in the logic and correct this design "feature" by using the 180 stat and hopefully extend the life of the head gaskets and the engine in the process.
We have to realize all of our preaching on hear about cooler running temps is going to be perceived as "you have a huge problem" if yours isn't as cool running as mine... No you are running at factory engineered temps. It isn't as dire as say not changing out your front drive shaft.
Of course we here who don't have government regulations to satisfy on a corporate scale can see the flaw in the logic and correct this design "feature" by using the 180 stat and hopefully extend the life of the head gaskets and the engine in the process.
We have to realize all of our preaching on hear about cooler running temps is going to be perceived as "you have a huge problem" if yours isn't as cool running as mine... No you are running at factory engineered temps. It isn't as dire as say not changing out your front drive shaft.
#28
09-17-2018, 11:58 AM
TReK
These trucks were designed to run up to 220 to meet US emissions standards. It's just how it was/is and has nothing to do with what you would accept as normal.
Of course we here who don't have government regulations to satisfy on a corporate scale can see the flaw in the logic and correct this design "feature" by using the 180 stat and hopefully extend the life of the head gaskets and the engine in the process.
We have to realize all of our preaching on hear about cooler running temps is going to be perceived as "you have a huge problem" if yours isn't as cool running as mine... No you are running at factory engineered temps. It isn't as dire as say not changing out your front drive shaft.
Of course we here who don't have government regulations to satisfy on a corporate scale can see the flaw in the logic and correct this design "feature" by using the 180 stat and hopefully extend the life of the head gaskets and the engine in the process.
We have to realize all of our preaching on hear about cooler running temps is going to be perceived as "you have a huge problem" if yours isn't as cool running as mine... No you are running at factory engineered temps. It isn't as dire as say not changing out your front drive shaft.
I’m just sharing my experience, and you can run yours at 220 all day if you like.
#29
09-17-2018, 01:07 PM
My new Turner ran 204-208 when new.
Good idea not driving it, put in a 180 degree thermostat. Fill with coolant using the Rave procedure, let it cool completely. Re-bleed. Run it up to 200. Let it cool. Top off, and test drive.
This is would be my recommendation.
i would not accept anything above 210 as normal operating temp. Maybe with a trailer and loaded to the gills, up an incline the temps should climb there, but in 95 degree heat my temps got to 209 briefly up a long long incline going 75 mph. Otherwise, 198-200, less in cooler temps.
it is possible that you have a bad fan clutch. It’s easy enough to get a different fan clutch from Autozone to test it.
I had a thermostat issue after HG job, and it is frustrating. I really doubt it is your sensor, and consider the online thermostat mod if you can return your thermostats. I wish I had done it.
Good idea not driving it, put in a 180 degree thermostat. Fill with coolant using the Rave procedure, let it cool completely. Re-bleed. Run it up to 200. Let it cool. Top off, and test drive.
This is would be my recommendation.
i would not accept anything above 210 as normal operating temp. Maybe with a trailer and loaded to the gills, up an incline the temps should climb there, but in 95 degree heat my temps got to 209 briefly up a long long incline going 75 mph. Otherwise, 198-200, less in cooler temps.
it is possible that you have a bad fan clutch. It’s easy enough to get a different fan clutch from Autozone to test it.
I had a thermostat issue after HG job, and it is frustrating. I really doubt it is your sensor, and consider the online thermostat mod if you can return your thermostats. I wish I had done it.
#30
09-17-2018, 02:17 PM
Super Moderator
It also depends on the location/local weather and city or highway driving. Here in SETX with the HVAC on, 90-100F (not counting heat index or humidity) I’ll run 193-206F easy if not a little more depending on traffic or engine loaded down (hills or passing people). Now same weather with say 100% cloud cover and it drops to 188-200F. That is with a 180F thermostat.
The 180F doesn’t really stop the highend temps it just extends it from reaching it quickly. The 180F opens sooner so in theory the engine starts off cooler yes, but say on a 2+ hour drive your engine will eventually reach a point where the air flowing thru the radiator can no longer keep up with the heat generated by the engine and eventually the 193F will start to creep up. On all of my LR’s I’ve seen this occur after 60MPH give or take a few MPH. Slow down a bit and the temps will go back down.
On a LR with a good conditon cooling system the #1 clue to a healthy system is when the temps rise if you lower your speed or RPM the temps will drop. If they don’t then you have a part of the system not working properly from the radiator, air in the system, low coolant, or a stuck closed thermostat.
Contrary to popular belief a thermostat either opens or closes or sticks open or closed. Very simple to test in a pot of water on the stove. 180F thermostat’s are IMHO great for southern states, but in temps where you barely break the 80’s during the summer a stock 195F might actually suit your needs better. Our engines run rich & an engine that runs to cool will trigger the P0126 fault (on SAI equipped 03-04 D2’s I see it quit often with 180F thermostats), and it will get poor MPG & could fail SMOG test.
The 180F doesn’t really stop the highend temps it just extends it from reaching it quickly. The 180F opens sooner so in theory the engine starts off cooler yes, but say on a 2+ hour drive your engine will eventually reach a point where the air flowing thru the radiator can no longer keep up with the heat generated by the engine and eventually the 193F will start to creep up. On all of my LR’s I’ve seen this occur after 60MPH give or take a few MPH. Slow down a bit and the temps will go back down.
On a LR with a good conditon cooling system the #1 clue to a healthy system is when the temps rise if you lower your speed or RPM the temps will drop. If they don’t then you have a part of the system not working properly from the radiator, air in the system, low coolant, or a stuck closed thermostat.
Contrary to popular belief a thermostat either opens or closes or sticks open or closed. Very simple to test in a pot of water on the stove. 180F thermostat’s are IMHO great for southern states, but in temps where you barely break the 80’s during the summer a stock 195F might actually suit your needs better. Our engines run rich & an engine that runs to cool will trigger the P0126 fault (on SAI equipped 03-04 D2’s I see it quit often with 180F thermostats), and it will get poor MPG & could fail SMOG test.