Hi all,

I picked up an '03 Disco II SE7 a few months ago when I lived in Tucson, AZ. Had about 100,000 desert mi. on it. Aside from some painful looking sunburn, it always ran well.

A couple of months ago, I moved back to Toronto Canada, and drove it back here with me.

In order to get a license in Canada, it has to pass an emissions test, based on the OBD data.

The 'check engine' light has always been on (since I got it), and a local Tucson Rover specialist who seemed quite competent found O2 sensor related codes, did a bunch of troubleshooting, replaced the one bad sensor he found, and things seemed fine - though the O2 fault codes didn't go away.

His conclusion was that it was likely a wiring failure rather than an 'actual' fault that was causing the codes. He recommended not venturing into the rat's nest of wiring unless it was necessary (since I was trying to keep costs down), as it could involve several hours of trial and error and resolve nothing. Obviously my risk was not knowing what else could go wrong and cause a 'check engine' light, but... Fine for the time.

Fast forward to now: I've got the Disco in Toronto, still running well, but since the Check Engine light (and o2 codes) won't reset, I can not get emissions approval, and hence not put it on the road.

So, I brought it to a Jag/Rover aftermarket dealer/garage to try to fix.

I explained what we'd discovered in Tucson, but was told they really had to look at everything themselves from scratch. I decided not to play know it all, and agreed.

I got a call a couple of days later explaining that there were O2 codes and that the problem may be the O2 sensors (!@%%#$#$!!), and that they would need about $1500 to replace all four sensors.

I re explained that there was some evidence that this was not the problem, and didn't want to spend (their estimate) $1000 on 4 OEM sensors I may not need.

They explained that unfortunately, over and above 4 hours of labour required, once they had installed the new sensors, I had to keep them regardless of the result.

I did some surfing, and found NGK aftermarket replacements that seemed to get adequate reviews, for $60 each.

By the time I contacted the shop to let them know I'd be ok with replacing them with the aftermarket ones, they had 'found' old but working O2 sensors, and swapped them for the ones I originally had in place.

Unsurprisingly, this did not make the O2 (and lean mixture, i should mention) codes go away. Unsurprisingly, I now had 4 hours of labor to pay for, and DIDN'T have any improvement, nor new O2 sensors.

They told me they also checked a number of other common causes of these codes, various types of pressure/leak issues for example.

I re iterated that the former mechanics thought it was a wiring issue, but was told that the mechanic at the shop here (with 25 years experience) thought it was the 'computer' (ECU I assume), and that since they had another 03 they were parting out, they wanted to swap computers, and reprogram the swapped one for my vehicle.

Poof, Another 4 hours of labour, and, surprise, no change in status.

In total, they want about $1,000 so far for troubleshooting time that has done nothing but possibly rule out the O2 sensors and the 'computer'!

Now they say 'It may be wiring, but it may also be the catalytic converters'. And now they tell me they don't really want to work on the wiring because it's hard to get to and they 'practically have to pull the engine out to get to it'.

SO their advice is that I have them replace the catalytic converters (another $800 - in labor alone I think) and SEE if that fixes the problem. I would have thought that an hour with a VOM checking voltages and for shorts to ground would be a good start, and that likely with all the computers in the Disco, if the cat converters were bad, it shouldn't require removing and replacing to find that out. but Noooooooooooooo....

I'm beside myself. I realize finding gremlins can be tough, but these guys supposedly have the right tools and years of tribal knowledge with Rovers.

My gut says the ECU either works or it doesn't, and isn't likely to generate false codes. That anyone adept with electrics can track down a flaky connection in a couple of hours. That there's a way to see if the exhaust system is the problem without removing it. Dunno. Maybe I'm expecting too much?

It seems reasonable to me that with experience and expertise, AND Rover's own computer analysis capability, AND OBD2, it shouldn't be 8-10 hours work of 'trial and error' replacing parts, to get to a point where we still don't know the source of the problem, AND that it could be another $1000 in and we would be looking at 'maybe it's the wiring' - which is where we started back in Arizona.

BUT, The owner of this place tells me he's been doing this for decades, and that's just the way it goes with troubleshooting 'old' rovers, and if they can't fix it nobody can. (To me, old is 1970, but 2003 TECHNOLOGY should be pretty advanced)...

But I really need some insight here...

My gut (as a non mechanical but highly techy guy) is that they're firing shots in the dark at my expense. And that after $1000 in, and not even any new parts in place, if they CAN'T figure it out, they should be offering to cut that wasted time/cost significantly, in exchange for getting the ok to continue.

Instead they say 'they've actually spent way more than the hours they've charged me for' so I can pay the $1,000 and take it exactly as it was (or maybe worse!), or give them MORE and 'hope for the best'.

PLEASE HELP ME WITH YOUR INSIGHTS ON WHETHER WHAT'S GOING ON SEEMS REASONABLE AND REALISTIC!!... I'm a fair guy, and if these guys are doing their best, I don't want to be an Ahole about it.

If I take it away and go somewhere else, the cost for the new mechanic to make themselves comfortable will be even higher, and who knows, they may say 'these last guys made things worse' - and I'll be equally stumped with a higher bill.

But if it sounds to you good folks that I'm being played, or at least am the victim of a mechanic who despite experience, just isn't troubleshooting effectively, PLEASE let me know your thoughts - and advice on what a 'responsible' shop would offer.

I DIDN'T EXPECT TO LOVE MY BEAT UP OLD DISCO SO MUCH AND REALLY WANT TO KEEP IT (My other car is a SAAB so I'm no stranger to quirky nor gremlins - but I can't afford to get screwed especially with Christmas coming. And the wonderful little beast is only worth a few grand anyway. I don't want to abandon it as it's a clean and solid desert vehicle (not abused, no salt, no rain...).

I'm feeling very snookered. Sorry for the LOnnnng post, but I guess I had to vent

Any thoughts are very much appreciated (and asap please as I'm running out of time)

Thanks all for your feedback

Earl

 

1st your Tucson guy should have replaced all 4 with new bosch sensors. (the usual "electrical issue" with o2, is not having proper connections at their plug)
2nd your canucks should have also.
they really are guessing if they are using old junk that is lying around.
you are back where you started with what will surely be lighter pockets.


4 bosch sensors. o2 wrench. pb blaster. a couple hours/2-4 depending. dielectric grease.


just my 2

 

How about giving us the exact codes that are being thrown, this may go a long way toward pin pointing the source of the problem.... after all that's what an OBDII equipped vehicle is supposed to do, point the mechanic in the right direction without having to take shots in the dark.

 

good point shade tree. I just assumed that it was o2 codes........

 

Yeah but are they "o2 not working" or "the exhaust hitting the o2 isnt clean enough" codes?

At any rate...

- I used NGK o2s when I did the upstreams on my 04. Theyve been fine for over 20k miles now.

- $1500 to replace the 4 o2 sensors on a discovery (i.e. not that hard) means you are bending over and spreading.

 

"BUT, The owner of this place tells me he's been doing this for decades, and that's just the way it goes with troubleshooting 'old' rovers, and if they can't fix it nobody can"


RUUUUUUUUUN!!!


And/ Or push this thing to Buffalo, NY.
Athol Motor Car 184 Reading Avenue, Buffalo, NY 14220
(716) 824-2276 Keith and Jeff can set this right.

 

Can the check engine light be disconnected? Just asking.

 

$1000 in labor for throwing a few used parts at it is pretty ridiculous. Like the others have said, it would help to know exactly what codes you have but for a shop that specializes in Rovers they seem fairly incompetent. Getting beat up on hard to diagnose problems is part of the business sometimes, you can't expect the customer to pay way above and beyond normal diagnosis time just because you're not good at what you're doing. Especially when they still haven't figured it out.


I would take it elsewhere.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0018R5SOW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1418481731&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX200_QL40

Just over $50 for the fronts. Orange connector model is on the front and grey connector on the back.

Your situation is not uncommon and those 02 codes can be a nightmare.

Let me add:
- do whatever it takes to get the car out of there at the lowest price(try the poor me I can't afford that price route, catch more flys with honey approach)

- nicely ask for the old parts back(ECU and O2 sensors, they should not need them because they were obviously bad, right?)

- buy4 new sensors, change them yourself. Use electrical connector cleaner on the connections before connecting, dielectric grease after to seal the connectors.

- buy an affordable OBD2 scanner.

- start to become mechanical real quick. If you love your rover, you're going to have to work on it yourself.

- possibly look into a parts truck, or better yet but an 04' with good paint that can pass smog and turn the 03' into your auto parts store/ tester.

Goodluck

 

Diagnosis by definition means "identification of a problem". Throwing parts at a situation is not a professional means of diagnosis. That's called guessing. If these guys were professionals they would identify the problem, sort the data, and come to a conclusion. Not just stab old parts laying around hoping it fixes tell problem.

This goes for the AZ guy too. All four sensors should have been replaced (assuming your codes are really for 02 sensors). To just say "oh its probably in the wiring" shows me the mechanic has no idea of the the problem.

There is going to have to be a reasonable charge for diag time. 1000 dollars is insane. BUT did you specify that the bill should not exceed a certain amount? That is also your responsibility. Any good shop would call you once the cost started to skyrocket. But you have to always be a smart cautious customer. So laying down a set amount saves you of a problem like this. Also did they have a signed work order by you agreeing to this amount? Or one that was vague agreement?