Not to bash Senormac but it is this very statement that, to me, is the height of our arrogance. A "single creator," "one way", "hundreds of imposters." This is precisely why we are in the state we are in. The arrogance of any one person or group of people to feel their way is the only way and all others are wrong. If there is a god and he truly feels that way he is a petty, narrow minded sociopath.

Take a look at this comedic clip if you're not easily offended.

 

Hmmm... I don't understand your train of thought Paul. An artist, a creator is not arrogant when they say... I made this. I designed it like this, and it works like this. Was Frank Lloyd Wright arrogant to tell the builders down to the inch what the floor plan was to look like for Falling Water House... or any of his works? I don't think so. It had his name attached to it. It was his houseplan. Was Leonardo Da Vinci arrogant to say "I painted the Mona Lisa. I painted it on this size canvas and I used these colors of paint and these types of brushes ? No. He had his name attached to it. It was his alone.

It seems the same to me when talking about the creator. I'm not saying "MY" way is the right way and everybody else's is the wrong way. I'm saying "His" way is the right way and there just aren't any other ways. He designed it. He built it. And He is the only one who has the right to say how it's supposed to work. His name is attached to it. I'm just paying attention to the designers instructions.

 

My degree was in philosophy and I am not even going to waste my time debating the vacuous nature of the concept of "Intelligent Design." If it gives you the warm and cozies fine, just don't try to teach that BS to kids at the expense of an education grounded in science.

"There won't because there is a single creator and way..... and a hundred imposters with millions of followers saying.... this is the creator and way. War is inevitable Do you think Al-Qaeda or Isis are interested in peoples freedoms?"

So is that single creator Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, Hindu or one of hundreds of folk religions people have practiced for centuries around the world. If the creator was Jewish, uh oh for the roughly 29% of the world that worships Mohammad or the 32% that worship Jesus Christ (he was betrayed by a Jew and killed by a Pagan Roman). That's a lot of people barking up the wrong tree.

How about if it turns out that our creator wanted us to practice a religion that has become extinct? Are we all doomed to burn in hell or is that even the punishment. I don't know you presented a lot of vagaries in the statement above.

It's awfully easy to point to a few lunatics and tar an entire religion with the brush of the damned. Be careful. An awful lot of people over the centuries have died because they worshipped the wrong god. At least the wrong god according to the guy wielding the biggest stick at the time.

"BTW.... I used to be an atheist too. Strong and opinionated. "

It seems like you still have the opinionated quality down pat.

"I never would have changed my position if I was not presented with irrefutable proof "

What, exactly does irrefutable proof mean. If you're attempting to use it in a scientific sense I have to warn you that the word doesn't exist in a scientist language. If you're talking about alcohol or math or photography, proof is a valid word. Science deals in evidence. If you have evidence to support a hypothesis and you can recreate the event using the scientific method that's one thing. If we're talking alien abduction (I'm being facetious) that's another.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm beating up on you but where OffRoad may not want to get into this sort of thing, frankly, I'm too tired of clatter like this NOT being addressed. We are seeing an absolute decline in the science and mathematic abilities of children today and the anti science nonsense has gone too far.

 

whoa whoa.... cool your jets man. We're just two people having a conversation. I'm not trying to talk you out of your atheism. I look at life and I can see something there, behind the scenes. You look at it and see nothing.
I see something.
You see nothing.
Wouldn't it be more logical for you to say you don't see it, than to say, there's nothing there?

 

See what??? A white bearded HE floating out in space waiting to give me a place at his alter in eternity. Sorry, you have nothing in the way of verifiable evidence to convince me that you have anything more than happy thoughts. And, as I said above, if that gives you the warm and cozies that's fine.

I get upset when these "feelings" get translated into academic curricula. The State of Texas BOE and their actions are a perfect example of substituting science with intelligent design, evolution with young earth creationism. What's really scary is the influence the Texas BOE has on how textbooks get written. As the largest buyer of school textbooks they exert an inordinate pressure on publishers to rewrite science so it fits religious "belief" more comfortably. Not only is this irresponsible, it's downright dangerous.

 

To paint the picture, I was brought up as a catholic in a jewish family FFS they couldn't even agree what they were. My take was that I couldn't believe in all of this crap and I pulled the rip cord outa there. When push comes to shove all religions are INVENTED by man, no if's or but's. For what purpose then, yep, power, control and money ............... what else. I have yet to find anyone pop up with the correct answers and say "I've got the irrefutable scientific evidence" and here it is, no if's or but's it's hard evidence not hearsay, imagination, gobbledygook but real hard scientific facts and evidence, so then, and only then, I might take some notice. The hearsay abounds, my aunties friend's friend said her neighbour saw an apparition which appeared to her on her way back from the bar that night, right, yeah, yeah, yeah and I'm the bloody tooth fairy. I need hard evidence, solid stuff not experiences, hearsay or drunks and druggies seeing pigs fly ........... just hard evidence. Not reformed cranks and murderers on death row repenting and they've found god .............. just hard scientific useable evidence of facts where someone can re-enact or recreate the same scenario for scientific evaluation. It's not too much to ask really as in anything in life you don't take for a fact until proven so why not religion. Let me say this, I have no problem with anyone and their religions and beliefs provided they desist from the hard sell to others, particularly me, and most importantly it doesn't lead astray or cause any harm whatsoever to others in the name of religion. Whatever others believe is not my business and provided they are happy and comfortable with it who cares. For me atheism sticks with the way I see the world and the inhabitants and when the time comes I'll go nowhere like everyone else before or after and all the animals and humans. Some will say but the humans have souls and the animals don't .............. why .............. we are all animals who told anyone anything different ............. hmmmm ............... man . I work on the basis of evidence not hearsay and until then it's all hearsay invented by ..................... man.

 

Like Paul, I like and work on facts culminating in a logical conclusion. I don't stir jelly with a knitting needle 'cos it doesn't work. Being an engineer coming from a family of mathmaticians, scientists and engineers it's hard to accept anything that doesn't have a tangible answer and conclusion. It's black or white and if one pursues whatever entity there is always a conclusive positive answer one way or the other. To me anyone who believes otherwise is deluded. Yep, there is fuzzy logic but even that is quantifiable and the algorithms are there and given the time and computing power the 'fuzzy' bit can be unravelled. Unfortunately, the faith and religion thingy is not tangible and can never be unravelled so in my mind it cannot exist. Sadly the PC plebs that run the western governments pander more to the losers than the doers and makers. Hence math and science has been relegated to the annals of history in favour of the wishy washy arts, sports etc. Academic standards are now reduced to the lowest common denominator not targeted on the highest and therefore academic qualifications are watered down so much so as to be worthless and meaningless and we now breed a class of waiters and waitresses working for McDo's who have, in theory, a 1st in sports psychology ................ hmmmm ............... yeah .............. really useful ................. a major contribution to GDP .......... not. These are they types where the BOTS will predominate and they will all be consigned to the trash can .......... yep, I like doers, makers, inventors and creators, but creators of the tangible and preferably assets whether those assets be academic or physical.

 

Offroad, we are on the same page when it comes to this topic. I've said it twice in my posts, if believing in so intangible notion of a god or an afterlife helps you sleep at night, so be it. However, when you're beliefs start to interfere with how we educate people, that's where I draw the line. In the US more people believe in angels (77%) than evolution (60%) and a quarter of of the population believes the sun revolves around the earth!

Don't even get me started with Americans and their fundamental lack of understanding how their government works. More Americans can name the Three Stooges than the three branches of the government! I rail all the time about the fact that more people can name the NY Yankee's line up than can name their representative in Congress.

It's a very sad state of affairs nevertheless, it is not hopeless by any stretch of the imagination. We seem to forget how close we've come to wiping the human race off the planet since the development of thermonuclear weaponry. We seem to forget when well over two thirds of all the nations on this planet were engaged in a war to the finish that saw scores of millions perish from the planet. We have a hard time grasping that even though it certainly seems as though war is raging everywhere, we, in fact live in a more peaceful now than we have in a very long time. We get so caught up in the noise of impending doom that we forget how marvelously inventive we are as a species and how, time and again we've managed to get through events that seemed to cast a shadow over our very existence.

Senormac, you said"
"I see something.
You see nothing. "

I couldn't disagree more. I think I see a lot more than you do because I have my eyes, my mind and my sense of being firmly rooted in the here and now, not some dreamy afterlife I'll be rewarded with should I tow the line. No sir, I can tell you, emphatically, your assertion that I see "nothing" is not only utterly incorrect but a shame. One does not need the threat of hell to live a morally just life and one does not, in anyway, need religion or spirituality to grasp the concept of normative morality.

 

You know what the problem with atheism is? It has an altered sense of GOOD as a concept. What can be more mathmatically sound than realizing that the highest being in the universe is GOOD and that LOVE is his top quality.

Atheist's are in essence saying NO to that as a foundation for their lives. The rest is sand.

 

No wonder why you couldn't live as an atheist. You have absolutely no idea beyond those force feed you by "believers." Senormac I feel sorry for your utter lack of intellectual curiosity and the fact that you need to rely on Fallacious Reasoning.