Just get a Lexus GS since you hate the LR

 

Having gone through the overland rig buildout process myself, I think it's important to go into it with clear goals and objectives. What is it that you need the vehicle to do? What kinds of terrain will you typically encounter? The narrow, rocky and muddy trails of the Northeast are different than the mostly dry rock and desert of the Southwest. Do you anticipate taking multi-day expeditions or are you a weekend warrior? Are you planning on driving long distances on-road before hitting the trails or are your destinations mostly going to be within a few hours of home? Will this vehicle also be your daily driver? These questions and others will guide you on the modifications you make to your rig. Every choice, even the base vehicle selection, comes with a series of compromises.... building the truck up for more offroad capability will inevitably affect its on-road performance. Being more self-sufficient will add weight and thus increase wear on components. For this reason, and in the interest of fiscal restraint (something that I know absolutely nothing about) - the best advice I can give you is to make your vehicle decision, whether it be the 110 X or the 130 - then take it on some shorter trips offroad while putting at least a few thousand miles on the odometer. Use your phone's voice recorder function to make notes about what you'd like to change. I'd recommend making changes incrementally if you can - that way every change can be evaluated for its effectiveness in a univariate way. This can be tempered by common sense of course. Installing a rear door fold down table and a suspension lift at the same time have little to do with one another.

Note I say all this as a hypocrite. I'm speaking from a perspective of "if I had to do it again..."

 

Good points everyone .... had my LR3 for 20 years now so it is too late for me I am addicted to the Land Rover. The Defender is amazing and I love it but they could have catered more to those of us who use them for adventure and less to the crowd who drive them to the opera. My LR3 has been on sand dunes, held scuba gear, 17 foot kayaks ... even carried me to safety when our house burned down in the 2017 fires.

Smaller rims, better tires, bolt on accessories for off roading without having to cut plastic and remove parts. But my process has begun. I have added lights, added light controller, poked a hole in the firewall, installed a Midland GMRS. Next will be the winch and sliders.

Before I do all that I just need to make sure I am not going to have to trade it in because I have a bad one. Even my service manager says he has traded his 2022 in because so many issues for what he thinks is a more reliable year. Time will tell.

Make fun of the Lexus but it is a Four Runner underneath and will probably never break. My camry got me through my school years all I ever did was oil, brakes and tires.

For $100k I do get tired of trips to the dealer for warranty work.

 

I get the impression that new car reliability/quality across all makes has been going downhill since the pandemic - if not before. The greater reliance on electronics and software, combined with the "supply chain" issues with parts and general lack of component manufacturer quality seems to have made things worse with regards to vehicle longevity. In my personal experience, when the factory alternator in my 22 year old offroad rig finally died it took 3 replacement (new, not re-man'd) units before I got one that didn't die within a month. As for making fun of the GX - it's a good vehicle, but the TNGA-F platform hasn't had a good reputation so far given the Tundra and LX600 issues. Note that I think a lot of the online criticism of the TNGA-F platform is coming from the old school toyota 4.0L V6, 4.7L V8 fans who are upset with the direction they are going with powertrains. But Toyota isn't what it used to be - my 08 FJ has only ever needed a new alternator and two window motors and has almost 180k on the odometer. Unfortunately its also completely rusted underneath. But comparing the Defender to something like a 5th gen 4Runner is kind of silly, as the Defender is more of a luxury offroad SUV than the 4R.

As for the mods you mention requiring chopping and trimming - on the Defender you might find that you don't actually need to change up all that much from what you refer to as the "opera runner" to do what you want to accomplish. No matter what rig you choose as the starting point, with very limited exceptions - no matter what make/model you go with - the value will suffer the more mods you put on. Jeep owners are notorious for this, thinking that adding a bunch of offroad equipment to their Wranglers actually helps the value.. it doesn't in general (Doug DeMuro just mentioned on his podcast how dealing with modded Jeep owners trying to sell their rigs on Cars and Bids are the hardest to deal with when setting reserve prices).

I get that you've got the LR bug. But part of having that bug is the bitter pill of having to fix things, or have things fixed. If I were in your shoes, I'd trade in my problem Defender (since you've lost faith in it), get a new 110 (if you don't plan on overlanding with 4 people) or 130 (if you plan on overlanding with 4 people), get a nice extended warranty for it, then start the modding process with a set of 18" wheels and good AT tires. See how she eats and go from there.

 

This thread is the BEST reason I'm on this forum. Well informed information. I wish I had @sarek 's advice before I bought mine! No regrets at all on my build, but that is hard won tuition payments as my father would say.

 

Agreed .. great advice. It comes down to why did you buy a Defender compared to the other options out there. Having had my LR3 for so long I just really love the way it drives when I am going on a long road trip. I also love the capability. I have always done a lot of outdoor activities. I also tend to research things and look for things where function has been optimized. My struggles with Land Rover relate to the decision lately to put style ahead of function and the reliability. I have argued with my German friend about Land Rover and we go back and forth on the function and reliability. For him the recently retired Land Cruiser was his choice and I chose the Defender. It is very difficult to be good on both road and off road and to sell more vehicles Land Rover keeps aiming more at the on road customer with a styling nod to the off road history. Selling a Defender with 22" rims is an obvious nod to the street side. Offering 18" rims is a nice nod to the history but then to have the brake calipers too large in the larger engine to use them is a slight.

The Ineos was a nice attempt to go back to the heritage of the Defender, and the complaint about the Ineos is the on road comfort which is evidence that they did cater more to the the performance of the vehicle. When I was younger I was a backpack/snowshoe guide taking inner city kids into the wilderness and then I became a Class 4-5 whitewater river guide. I want a vehicle that can get me where I want to be and get me home.

In the end I have a Defender and I am hoping that after I work through a few of these issues I can rely on it. Once I find it reliable I can put some money into it to make it actually off road capable. Or I could get an Ineos which I can get from the factory with a lot of the mods that Defender should have available as well. I have another friend who has one and he says after an hour on the freeway it is tiresome but off road it is amazing. As a pilot I love all the switches. Having power on the roof for accessories is an amazing touch with the Ineos. Too bad no one else is doing these types of things. Maybe Jeep is the other capable truck from the factory.

I want to go explore many of the trials in Oregon, Idaho, Nevada with my "rugged" off road tear drop. The recent You tube videos on the Owyhee River inspire me to go up there. If I rattle my trailer into destruction I can deal with that. Lesson learned and buy a different model. Patriot games has shown many trailers in extreme conditions. It could be I have to go to a ligher one. What I can't accept is some electronic failure that strands me out in the middle of Idaho or Oregon. You pay a lot for a Defender and the Land Rover name .... It would be nice if that meant it was actually premium. I can lift the sub frame, add armor, add winch, get serious tires, replace the caliper and go with smaller rims. But if my battery won't charge it does not really matter. I did buy the hood solar panel charger and for my last failer that might have kept my battery charged enough to get me out of the wilderness.

Probably the AU spec bull bar is the best since that is a "factory" add on I think? Supports a nice winch and looks easy to install. Then I have to get rock sliders and figure out which route to go to get actual off road tires on the Defender. The stock off road Duratracs and the 20" rims actually have some sidewall but I recall the Duratracs are not that great.

 

I also went with the P300 110. Very happy so far, although I am holding off on any mods until warranty is up. 18" steelies are definitely the way to go. I was (and am) very happy with the basic fabric interior. It's holding up great and I'm not a fan of leather interiors anyway. Cold weather package was a must for me and I use the heated seats for many months. Clearsight mirror and large screen were also important to me, but I don't think you can get them on a P300 any more. I chose the air suspension and locking rear diff - I understand Ralf's reasoning in his detailed post, but I suspect he's doing way more hardcore things than I ever plan to. The air suspension and magnetic shocks make for a wonderful ride on the 98% of the time whenever we are on roads and allows mu 5'2" partners to get in and out easily.

 

Just a quick response to your follow up

You have qualms about JLR reliability and you mention Jeep? I hope you are joking. And the Grenadier just never sat well with me - ride is terrible, interior feels like a Russian army vehicle from the 1980s, and the steering is borderline dangerous. I can't say that a modern BMW engine fills me with any hope for reliability, either.

​​​​​​​ It has some nice touches, but 100% of them I have seen in the area (and there are quite a few) are rich mens' toys. Overall it reminds me of the UAZ van/SUVs that we used to ride in back in the day in former eastern bloc countries - wonderful off-road but punishing anywhere else - so maybe Ratcliffe has distilled the essence of the original Defender and series 109 into his vehicle. I've spent enough time in them cold, wet, back aching and waiting for the ride to end that I prefer something a little more civilized these days. Each to their own.

 

The Ineos uses the B58 I6, which was designed in-house by BMW with the help of Toyota for the Z4 and Supra, and nearly all of the BMW lineup. Ineos de-tuned it 100 horsepower from BMW (which is why it’s so bloody slow).

Some of the early variations from 2015-2016 had a few issues, but they revised the fuel system, timing chains, crankcase, and exhaust manifold in 2018, and in 2022 they added port injection to help mitigate carbon buildup and reduce emissions.

Overall, the B58 has been an incredibly reliable engine and it’s not uncommon to see these being tuned to 700+ horsepower on stock internals. I’m not a huge BMW guy, but I think the B58 is one of the best engines in the history of the automobile. It is powerful, efficient, (can easily get 35 mpg in M340is, 540is, M240is etc.) and reliable. It also sounds great, is incredibly refined, and buttery smooth.

 

I could not agree more. I've had this engine in several BMW's and it is brilliant. My current BMW is an X3 M40i and it's the best road car I think I've ever owned.

But then I also have a 2020 Jeep Wrangler, which has been 100% problem free and a blast to drive. I guess I just have good Carma? ;-)

And of course my 2023 Defender 110S P300, which is perhaps my favorite car of all time. Other than silly little things like Apple Car Play being moody, it has been totally reliable and problem-free. I ordered my Defender exactly how I wanted it, and even though I didn't have Sarek's advice at the time, I was thinking along the same lines. 4-cylinder engine + coil springs + 18" steelies + trailer hitch = reliability and longevity. 30K miles on mine and no problems so far.