Depreciation
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Three Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 67
Likes: 46
From: AL
Winching
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 549
Likes: 275
From: Western NY
I ended up getting around 5 quotes from dealers with Carvana coming out on top at $62.5K. From what I can tell, the Defender 130 doesn’t command a premium in the used market over the 110 despite being $9K more expensive new. There’s no market demand, so on top of regular depreciation you’re eating the additional cost delta of the 130.
Wow, that's pretty surprising to me carvana coming up with the top offer. Did that include actual brick and mortar local dealerships?
When I was checking online a couple of years back I think it was vroom who made me the top offer out of the online places @ 58k and a local Ford dealer then beat it at 60k. Across town a second Ford dealership offered to match the 60k. Carvana was only checking in with like 53k at the time. Vroom is actually out of business now though so maybe Carvana is doing better these days, I thought I heard they were close to folding up too at one point.
The JLR dealership where I bought it originally offered me like 58 or 59 I want to say. Whatever it was I remember it was a solid/fair appraisal at the time but they didn't have anything I wanted on the lot. My sales guy suggested a disco sport, I wasn't too keen on that. I like them enough but it wasn't all that cheap for what it is. I think that was like 60k, I wanted a 45k car at that point. The stuff JLR had coming off-lease which they had me test drive was in terrible shape too so I walked. I ended up with Honda. It's funny because I wanted the Honda after the Defender but the Honda dealer across the street from JLR only offered me like 48k, I told them they were nutty. As it turned out the one Ford dealer who offered me the 60k acquired a Honda dealership several months later in the next county. I didn't end up getting 60k from them by that time but it was still a decent number they ended up giving me. It was within 2k of what I owed on it so into the Passport/Trailsport I went and two years later so far so good. I still like the JLR stuff though and I'm living within walking distance of them now so I do keep them in mind for my next vehicle purchase if I ever get the itch. Right now the Honda checks all of my boxes for a 'daily'.
Last edited by Chief65; Nov 19, 2024 at 04:57 PM.
Thread Starter
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Three Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 67
Likes: 46
From: AL
Yes, all local brick and mortar including the Lexus dealership where I have a deposit on a GX550 Overtrail+. A Land Rover is already a niche market and the Defender 130 seems to be a niche within a niche. My guess is they're expensive and move slow because of low demand, so the dealerships protect themselves with low trade values. There also isn't any premium paid for solar attenuating windshield or "software options" such as advanced off road package, tow assist, etc. The used market doesn't care about software, but Land Rover charges quite a bit for those options.
Last edited by JBelt01; Nov 19, 2024 at 04:58 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 35
Likes: 14
Yes, all local brick and mortar including the Lexus dealership where I have a deposit on a GX550 Overtrail+. A Land Rover is already a niche market and the Defender 130 seems to be a niche within a niche. My guess is they're expensive and move slow because of low demand, so the dealerships protect themselves with low trade values. There also isn't any premium paid for solar attenuating windshield or "software options" such as advanced off road package, tow assist, etc. The used market doesn't care about software, but Land Rover charges quite a bit for those options.
Last edited by LandRoverCA; Nov 20, 2024 at 07:05 AM.
TReK
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,774
Likes: 1,983
From: Whidbey Island, PNW
I ended up getting around 5 quotes from dealers with Carvana coming out on top at $62.5K. From what I can tell, the Defender 130 doesn’t command a premium in the used market over the 110 despite being $9K more expensive new. There’s no market demand, so on top of regular depreciation you’re eating the additional cost delta of the 130.
Thread Starter
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Three Wheeling
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 67
Likes: 46
From: AL
After a 5 month wait, our Defender 130 build arrived with nearly every option. Locking differential, off-road packs, tow packs, convenience pack, heated windshield, everything. Immediate gripes:
1. The cargo area isn’t flat, so cargo is placed on the back of inclined rear seats, and there’s a step for the folding mechanism a foot from the cargo door. It’s completely half assed and clearly an afterthought. I believe they now sell an insert or box to place behind that folding mechanism to make the floor more flat, but it’s still a half assed design, and tossing two small Honda EU2200i generators back there was like a game of Tetris.
2. The wheels on the Defender are bigger than my 911. This is supposed to be a flagship off road vehicle, and I know it’s technically capable after driving with their instructors at the Destination Defender event, but it’s a bit like taking a high school prom queen to Fallujah, Iraq. She’s not coming home without scrapped knees, broken nails, and she’s completely out of place. Where are we legitimately going without damaging 20” wheels and low profile tires?
I’ve taken the Defender on some mining trails in Colorado and even conquered a local Jeep off road course, but the butt pucker factor was extremely high, and I was constantly getting out to check my lines so I didn’t trash $3,000 in wheels on the rocks or destroy a low profile tires. Nothing crazy, but even rocks the size of your fist are enough to impact the big aluminum wheels. If you want to downsize to 18” wheels, it requires a brake caliper swap and voiding the warranty, and of course spending at least $5,000 you’ll never get back for brake calipers, wheels, and tires.
3. At 24,000 miles we were on a trip far away from home, driving down the highway (no trailer), and the transmission overheated. The vehicle threw itself in park right in the middle of the highway, would not shift to neutral so we could push it, and obstructed traffic for 30 minutes. It had to be hauled away on a flat bed, and my family was left standing on the side of a busy highway for an hour waiting for an Uber. The Defender was in the shop for 18 days waiting on a few cooling system parts. Note: We bring it to the dealer for an oil change and inspection every 7k miles, so it’s not due to any lack of maintenance.
My wife loves that the Defender rides and handles like a European sedan. It’s definitely a comfortable cross country highway cruiser and it’ll get you down a muddy dirt road to a rural AirBnB cabin, but off road is definitely more marketing than serious intention. The tow truck driver struggled to chain it down because the recovery points are covered by the plastic lower bumper, and I learned making them accessible requires a $1,200 aluminum skid plate accessory. My wife does not hesitate to constantly remind me how stupid it was to sell that Landcruiser.
4. The Defender luxury features aren’t well thought out for the U.S. market. I can’t remote start using the key fob, and the clunky app obviously doesn’t work in remote areas with no cell phone service. When I can remote start, the heated seats, steering wheel, and windshield don’t activate, so you’re still getting into a frozen car. My Jeep Wrangler had those features.
GX550 Overtrail+
1. It has an app, but remote start will also work with the key fob, and the heated seats and steering wheel will activate.
2. Accessible recovery points. No expensive accessories needed.
3. 18” wheels and real AT tires are standard on the Overtrail models. No stressing about damaging low profile tires on the trail.
4. No third row on Overtrail models, but the cargo floor is completely flat, and the rear seats flip forward for a huge amount of flat load area. This is real deal utility. The rear glass can be opened without opening the rear hatch - which is convenient if connected to a trailer.
5. It comes standard with an integrated trailer brake controller.
6. It’s a Lexus. You know the build quality is considered the industry gold standard, durability is a non-issue, parts will be plentiful, high quality, and relatively inexpensive because they’re shared with Toyota trucks, and is supported by a huge dealer network.
7. Desirability. Lexus is going to sell more GX550s than JLR will sell Defenders. There will be more aftermarket accessories and more venders in the market creating them. There will be a bigger audience of potential buyers in the used market when it’s time to sell, and nobody will blink at the idea of buying an out of warranty Toyota product with 100k+ miles. It’ll hold value better than most.
8. Off road capability. The new eKDSS trick suspension allows flex approaching the Wrangler and Bronco. Locking differential is standard. What the Defender and Land Rover products accomplish with software and the braking system, Toyota accomplishes with dedicated hardware.
Final thoughts: If you have a lot of disposable income, don’t plan on leaving the pavement, don’t keep cars very long, and are looking primarily for a luxury experience - the Defender 130 is a good fit. You’ll be rubbing shoulders with the finance bros at the Defender event in Malibu.
If you appreciate value for money, a focus on quality and durability, actually go off road, pull a trailer, require utility such as a flat cargo area, or plan to hold onto this vehicle - GX550 Overtrail+.
We’re more at home at 11,000 feet elevation in Ouray, Colorado, enjoying bison burgers with campers. Gushing over satin wraps and 22” wheels isn’t our crowd. It’s the GX all day for us - it’s not even a close call - we’re clearly Landcruiser people.
Last edited by JBelt01; Nov 20, 2024 at 05:27 AM.
Rock Crawling
Joined: Jan 2023
Posts: 416
Likes: 140
From: North of Toronto
No disrespect for 130, but it's not good for off road activities described. 110 will do better.
Lexus will not have suspension travel Of Bronco/Wrangler with disconnected sway bars. It does look close.
Accessories availability for future Lexus sales will not match mentioned Wrangler/Bronco.
Durability points are questionable, probably better than JLR but it won't be the same as Toyota/Lexus before. They started slipping.
New Defender is not real utility vehicle in common sense, it can be one with certain options and mods.
Lexus will not have suspension travel Of Bronco/Wrangler with disconnected sway bars. It does look close.
Accessories availability for future Lexus sales will not match mentioned Wrangler/Bronco.
Durability points are questionable, probably better than JLR but it won't be the same as Toyota/Lexus before. They started slipping.
New Defender is not real utility vehicle in common sense, it can be one with certain options and mods.
Last edited by TeddyG; Nov 20, 2024 at 05:44 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 35
Likes: 14
Of course! We had a Jeep Rubicon, enjoy the outdoors, and do a lot of off roading with Jeep events and the local off road clubs. We purchased a 23’ Airstream, so we replaced the Jeep with a 2006 Toyota Landcruiser (with 220,000 miles). That Landcruiser was still in mint condition, was super comfortable, and the build quality was outstanding. It had zero issues, every button and feature worked, was great off road, and I foolishly sold it because of the miles to buy the Defender 130. We planned on taking the Airstream on a several month cross-country trip.
After a 5 month wait, our Defender 130 build arrived with nearly every option. Locking differential, off-road packs, tow packs, convenience pack, heated windshield, everything. Immediate gripes:
1. The cargo area isn’t flat, so cargo is placed on the back of inclined rear seats, and there’s a step for the folding mechanism a foot from the cargo door. It’s completely half assed and clearly an afterthought. I believe they now sell an insert or box to place behind that folding mechanism to make the floor more flat, but it’s still a half assed design, and tossing two small Honda EU2200i generators back there was like a game of Tetris.
2. The wheels on the Defender are bigger than my 911. This is supposed to be a flagship off road vehicle, and I know it’s technically capable after driving with their instructors at the Destination Defender event, but it’s a bit like taking a high school prom queen to Fallujah, Iraq. She’s not coming home without scrapped knees, broken nails, and she’s completely out of place. Where are we legitimately going without damaging 20” wheels and low profile tires?
I’ve taken the Defender on some mining trails in Colorado and even conquered a local Jeep off road course, but the butt pucker factor was extremely high, and I was constantly getting out to check my lines so I didn’t trash $3,000 in wheels on the rocks or destroy a low profile tires. Nothing crazy, but even rocks the size of your fist are enough to impact the big aluminum wheels. If you want to downsize to 18” wheels, it requires a brake caliper swap and voiding the warranty, and of course spending at least $5,000 you’ll never get back for brake calipers, wheels, and tires.
3. At 24,000 miles we were on a trip far away from home, driving down the highway (no trailer), and the transmission overheated. The vehicle threw itself in park right in the middle of the highway, would not shift to neutral so we could push it, and obstructed traffic for 30 minutes. It had to be hauled away on a flat bed, and my family was left standing on the side of a busy highway for an hour waiting for an Uber. The Defender was in the shop for 18 days waiting on a few cooling system parts. Note: We bring it to the dealer for an oil change and inspection every 7k miles, so it’s not due to any lack of maintenance.
My wife loves that the Defender rides and handles like a European sedan. It’s definitely a comfortable cross country highway cruiser and it’ll get you down a muddy dirt road to a rural AirBnB cabin, but off road is definitely more marketing than serious intention. The tow truck driver struggled to chain it down because the recovery points are covered by the plastic lower bumper, and I learned making them accessible requires a $1,200 aluminum skid plate accessory. My wife does not hesitate to constantly remind me how stupid it was to sell that Landcruiser.
4. The Defender luxury features aren’t well thought out for the U.S. market. I can’t remote start using the key fob, and the clunky app obviously doesn’t work in remote areas with no cell phone service. When I can remote start, the heated seats, steering wheel, and windshield don’t activate, so you’re still getting into a frozen car. My Jeep Wrangler had those features.
GX550 Overtrail+
1. It has an app, but remote start will also work with the key fob, and the heated seats and steering wheel will activate.
2. Accessible recovery points. No expensive accessories needed.
3. 18” wheels and real AT tires are standard on the Overtrail models. No stressing about damaging low profile tires on the trail.
4. No third row on Overtrail models, but the cargo floor is completely flat, and the rear seats flip forward for a huge amount of flat load area. This is real deal utility. The rear glass can be opened without opening the rear hatch - which is convenient if connected to a trailer.
5. It comes standard with an integrated trailer brake controller.
6. It’s a Lexus. You know the build quality is considered the industry gold standard, durability is a non-issue, parts will be plentiful, high quality, and relatively inexpensive because they’re shared with Toyota trucks, and is supported by a huge dealer network.
7. Desirability. Lexus is going to sell more GX550s than JLR will sell Defenders. There will be more aftermarket accessories and more venders in the market creating them. There will be a bigger audience of potential buyers in the used market when it’s time to sell, and nobody will blink at the idea of buying an out of warranty Toyota product with 100k+ miles. It’ll hold value better than most.
8. Off road capability. The new eKDSS trick suspension allows flex approaching the Wrangler and Bronco. Locking differential is standard. What the Defender and Land Rover products accomplish with software and the braking system, Toyota accomplishes with dedicated hardware.
Final thoughts: If you have a lot of disposable income, don’t plan on leaving the pavement, don’t keep cars very long, and are looking primarily for a luxury experience - the Defender 130 is a good fit. You’ll be rubbing shoulders with the finance bros at the Defender event in Malibu.
If you appreciate value for money, a focus on quality and durability, actually go off road, pull a trailer, require utility such as a flat cargo area, or plan to hold onto this vehicle - GX550 Overtrail+.
We’re more at home at 11,000 feet elevation in Ouray, Colorado, enjoying bison burgers with campers. Gushing over satin wraps and 22” wheels isn’t our crowd. It’s the GX all day for us - it’s not even a close call - we’re clearly Landcruiser people.
After a 5 month wait, our Defender 130 build arrived with nearly every option. Locking differential, off-road packs, tow packs, convenience pack, heated windshield, everything. Immediate gripes:
1. The cargo area isn’t flat, so cargo is placed on the back of inclined rear seats, and there’s a step for the folding mechanism a foot from the cargo door. It’s completely half assed and clearly an afterthought. I believe they now sell an insert or box to place behind that folding mechanism to make the floor more flat, but it’s still a half assed design, and tossing two small Honda EU2200i generators back there was like a game of Tetris.
2. The wheels on the Defender are bigger than my 911. This is supposed to be a flagship off road vehicle, and I know it’s technically capable after driving with their instructors at the Destination Defender event, but it’s a bit like taking a high school prom queen to Fallujah, Iraq. She’s not coming home without scrapped knees, broken nails, and she’s completely out of place. Where are we legitimately going without damaging 20” wheels and low profile tires?
I’ve taken the Defender on some mining trails in Colorado and even conquered a local Jeep off road course, but the butt pucker factor was extremely high, and I was constantly getting out to check my lines so I didn’t trash $3,000 in wheels on the rocks or destroy a low profile tires. Nothing crazy, but even rocks the size of your fist are enough to impact the big aluminum wheels. If you want to downsize to 18” wheels, it requires a brake caliper swap and voiding the warranty, and of course spending at least $5,000 you’ll never get back for brake calipers, wheels, and tires.
3. At 24,000 miles we were on a trip far away from home, driving down the highway (no trailer), and the transmission overheated. The vehicle threw itself in park right in the middle of the highway, would not shift to neutral so we could push it, and obstructed traffic for 30 minutes. It had to be hauled away on a flat bed, and my family was left standing on the side of a busy highway for an hour waiting for an Uber. The Defender was in the shop for 18 days waiting on a few cooling system parts. Note: We bring it to the dealer for an oil change and inspection every 7k miles, so it’s not due to any lack of maintenance.
My wife loves that the Defender rides and handles like a European sedan. It’s definitely a comfortable cross country highway cruiser and it’ll get you down a muddy dirt road to a rural AirBnB cabin, but off road is definitely more marketing than serious intention. The tow truck driver struggled to chain it down because the recovery points are covered by the plastic lower bumper, and I learned making them accessible requires a $1,200 aluminum skid plate accessory. My wife does not hesitate to constantly remind me how stupid it was to sell that Landcruiser.
4. The Defender luxury features aren’t well thought out for the U.S. market. I can’t remote start using the key fob, and the clunky app obviously doesn’t work in remote areas with no cell phone service. When I can remote start, the heated seats, steering wheel, and windshield don’t activate, so you’re still getting into a frozen car. My Jeep Wrangler had those features.
GX550 Overtrail+
1. It has an app, but remote start will also work with the key fob, and the heated seats and steering wheel will activate.
2. Accessible recovery points. No expensive accessories needed.
3. 18” wheels and real AT tires are standard on the Overtrail models. No stressing about damaging low profile tires on the trail.
4. No third row on Overtrail models, but the cargo floor is completely flat, and the rear seats flip forward for a huge amount of flat load area. This is real deal utility. The rear glass can be opened without opening the rear hatch - which is convenient if connected to a trailer.
5. It comes standard with an integrated trailer brake controller.
6. It’s a Lexus. You know the build quality is considered the industry gold standard, durability is a non-issue, parts will be plentiful, high quality, and relatively inexpensive because they’re shared with Toyota trucks, and is supported by a huge dealer network.
7. Desirability. Lexus is going to sell more GX550s than JLR will sell Defenders. There will be more aftermarket accessories and more venders in the market creating them. There will be a bigger audience of potential buyers in the used market when it’s time to sell, and nobody will blink at the idea of buying an out of warranty Toyota product with 100k+ miles. It’ll hold value better than most.
8. Off road capability. The new eKDSS trick suspension allows flex approaching the Wrangler and Bronco. Locking differential is standard. What the Defender and Land Rover products accomplish with software and the braking system, Toyota accomplishes with dedicated hardware.
Final thoughts: If you have a lot of disposable income, don’t plan on leaving the pavement, don’t keep cars very long, and are looking primarily for a luxury experience - the Defender 130 is a good fit. You’ll be rubbing shoulders with the finance bros at the Defender event in Malibu.
If you appreciate value for money, a focus on quality and durability, actually go off road, pull a trailer, require utility such as a flat cargo area, or plan to hold onto this vehicle - GX550 Overtrail+.
We’re more at home at 11,000 feet elevation in Ouray, Colorado, enjoying bison burgers with campers. Gushing over satin wraps and 22” wheels isn’t our crowd. It’s the GX all day for us - it’s not even a close call - we’re clearly Landcruiser people.
Regarding your Overtrail, is it the 2025 version with the one-inch suspension lift for better clearance? The lack of a third row is a dealbreaker for me. Do you happen to know if the 2025 model will address that?
I was going to buy a new GX550 Overtrail (no plus, that package is dumb IMO) that had rock rails and a roof rack for $71k brand new.
Then the Tundra engine situation hit. Then I was told it would be a year long wait for it - at best. That's when I drove down to New Hampshire and bought the 110.
The GX looks great (from the front and side, its got an *** only a mother could love though with that absurd reverse codpiece) but I'm not sure about that twin turbo V6. They had issues early on with their electronic controlled wastegates and now there's this manufacturing defect... they say that the GX isn't affected but I don't think we'll really know until more of them are in the wild.
I wouldn't take one owners' experience as gospel to how the Defender experience plays out for the average owner. Remember on forums, you always get a collection of "doomsday" stories where things are broken and requests for advice on how to fix them. After all, how excited would a post be "I didn't have any issues today with my car! Carry on!" For a JLR product, with all of the baggage that the brand carries as far as reliability is concerned, the Defender seems to be doing really well overall.
As for offroad capability - the departure angle on the 130 is ... quite simply atrocious. But a vehicles' offroad capability is really defined by the skill and risk-tolerance of the driver. I understand that some people don't want to get their shiny new $100k Defenders all beat up on the trail. I take my shiny not-so-new $150k offroader out on the trails and put trees through its hood....Remember in the end they're just machines and can be fixed. The more skill and patience you have on the trail, the less your repair bill will be.
Then the Tundra engine situation hit. Then I was told it would be a year long wait for it - at best. That's when I drove down to New Hampshire and bought the 110.
The GX looks great (from the front and side, its got an *** only a mother could love though with that absurd reverse codpiece) but I'm not sure about that twin turbo V6. They had issues early on with their electronic controlled wastegates and now there's this manufacturing defect... they say that the GX isn't affected but I don't think we'll really know until more of them are in the wild.
Thank you for sharing your detailed experience. You’ve addressed exactly the concerns I have about the Defender - reliability, real-world off road capability, and depreciation. Your points resonate with me.
As for offroad capability - the departure angle on the 130 is ... quite simply atrocious. But a vehicles' offroad capability is really defined by the skill and risk-tolerance of the driver. I understand that some people don't want to get their shiny new $100k Defenders all beat up on the trail. I take my shiny not-so-new $150k offroader out on the trails and put trees through its hood....Remember in the end they're just machines and can be fixed. The more skill and patience you have on the trail, the less your repair bill will be.
Last edited by H1Tad; Nov 20, 2024 at 07:45 AM.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2024
Posts: 35
Likes: 14
I was going to buy a new GX550 Overtrail (no plus, that package is dumb IMO) that had rock rails and a roof rack for $71k brand new.
Then the Tundra engine situation hit. Then I was told it would be a year long wait for it - at best. That's when I drove down to New Hampshire and bought the 110.
The GX looks great (from the front and side, its got an *** only a mother could love though with that absurd reverse codpiece) but I'm not sure about that twin turbo V6. They had issues early on with their electronic controlled wastegates and now there's this manufacturing defect... they say that the GX isn't affected but I don't think we'll really know until more of them are in the wild.
I wouldn't take one owners' experience as gospel to how the Defender experience plays out for the average owner. Remember on forums, you always get a collection of "doomsday" stories where things are broken and requests for advice on how to fix them. After all, how excited would a post be "I didn't have any issues today with my car! Carry on!" For a JLR product, with all of the baggage that the brand carries as far as reliability is concerned, the Defender seems to be doing really well overall.
As for offroad capability - the departure angle on the 130 is ... quite simply atrocious. But a vehicles' offroad capability is really defined by the skill and risk-tolerance of the driver. I understand that some people don't want to get their shiny new $100k Defenders all beat up on the trail. I take my shiny not-so-new $150k offroader out on the trails and put trees through its hood....Remember in the end they're just machines and can be fixed. The more skill and patience you have on the trail, the less your repair bill will be.
Then the Tundra engine situation hit. Then I was told it would be a year long wait for it - at best. That's when I drove down to New Hampshire and bought the 110.
The GX looks great (from the front and side, its got an *** only a mother could love though with that absurd reverse codpiece) but I'm not sure about that twin turbo V6. They had issues early on with their electronic controlled wastegates and now there's this manufacturing defect... they say that the GX isn't affected but I don't think we'll really know until more of them are in the wild.
I wouldn't take one owners' experience as gospel to how the Defender experience plays out for the average owner. Remember on forums, you always get a collection of "doomsday" stories where things are broken and requests for advice on how to fix them. After all, how excited would a post be "I didn't have any issues today with my car! Carry on!" For a JLR product, with all of the baggage that the brand carries as far as reliability is concerned, the Defender seems to be doing really well overall.
As for offroad capability - the departure angle on the 130 is ... quite simply atrocious. But a vehicles' offroad capability is really defined by the skill and risk-tolerance of the driver. I understand that some people don't want to get their shiny new $100k Defenders all beat up on the trail. I take my shiny not-so-new $150k offroader out on the trails and put trees through its hood....Remember in the end they're just machines and can be fixed. The more skill and patience you have on the trail, the less your repair bill will be.
Driving Sports: Bought a Toyota Land Cruiser
Automotive Press: Bought a Toyota Land Cruiser
Cruisemaster Country: Sold his Defender for a Toyota Land Cruiser 300
Shedlock2000: Sold his Defender
Doug DeMuro: Sold his Defender for a Toyota Sequoia
TFLoffroad: Sold his third Defender
Ben Hardy: Sold his Defender for a Toyota Land Cruiser
Performance on Wheels: Sold his Defender
I also believe there's a survivorship bias—those who have sold their Defenders are less likely to be active on forums and voicing complaints.
Last edited by LandRoverCA; Nov 20, 2024 at 08:18 AM.
