Replicating a retro/vintage looking device is ostentatious and tacky.

The current defender is the result of sophisticated design that's derived from paying homage to its heritage coupled with incorporating modern technology and design language. It's brilliant, sophisticated and forward.

The grenadier on the other hand is the result of trying so hard to live in the past by replicating the aesthetic of something retro/vintage for the sake of nostalgia. It would be like Apple making an iPhone that looks like a rotary phone so to speak.

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Wholeheartedly disagree on the "vintage/retro" throwback styling. The reason why it works is *because* it draws on peoples' nostalgia which is a very powerful drug. The entire restomod industry exists because people want that older aesthetic with modern technology behind it. Hell, my buddy owns a business down in Texas that puts modern engineering into older trucks. MOST of his work is "open checkbook" builds that run into the $400k to $600k per project range (he's actually thinking about getting into the Grenadier buildout market). The Grenadier is a good looking truck exactly because it looks like a classic Defender and (modern) G-wagon. The new Defender is also very good looking - thats the thing about subjective interpretation... two opposite things can be true at the same time.

Your analogy is particularly flawed considering that the first iPods used rotary controls in particular because it was something people were familiar with. Apple pretty much pioneered the "skeumorphic" design language which made software UX "look and interact" like physical (vintage) controls.

 

Just because something is commercially successful and is wanted by many people does not mean the design is exceptional. If the design is bad, it only means that many people have poor taste.

Design is not subjective. Design is a discipline that involves art, science, psychology, philosophy and etc

Taste on the other hand is subjective.

Just because someone loves something, it doesn't mean that something has good design. It could mean that something is poorly designed and the person has poor taste.

Putting a fake barn door inside your modern home to simulate a "rustic" feel will always be tacky no matter how many people love doing that and how many million of fake barn doors are sold.

Countless of garbage summer blockbuster movies broke box office records over the years. They will remain to be bad movies that were poorly written, poorly directed, poorly acted, poorly edited and etc. But there were many many people who loved them because they have poor taste.

​​​​​​My apple analogy is valid. Just as you pointed out, the physical dial was chosen for function as most people are familiar with using a physical dial which would facilitate the intuitive principle of many apple design. They did not use physical dial because it looks nostalgic because doing so would be tacky and unsophisticated as I pointed out.

 

There is a definitely element of design that is - in fact subjective.

Design itself cannot be objectively bad or good since as you so eloquently point out - human taste is involved in any given design's interpretation.

I don't think I've ever read such a condescendingly terrible take on something that is up to personal taste and interpretation. Congrats. There should be a forum badge for that level of narcissism.
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Please don't mistaken intellectual honesty to narcissism.

​​​​​​Being diplomatic and adhering to social etiquette for acceptance does not equate to nobility and decency. Sometimes it does but sometimes it means disingenuous merely for social acceptance which in essence is highly narcissistic.

On the contrary, calling out things the way it is even though it is uncomfortable or controversial and socially unacceptable based on the above preconceived social etiquette is actually transparent, open, direct and authentic.

And there are good designs and bad designs. There are various components in design that are derived from scale, color theory, line motif, proportion and etc. and these are technical components that are mathematics based along with psychology and other social science.

Just because someone loves a particular design does not warrant such design as good. It could simply mean the design is poor and whoever loves it has poor taste.

On the contrary, just because someone dislikes a design does not warrant such design as poor. Because in some instances, the design is good but the people who dislike such design have poor taste.


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(Time coded)

Throttle House gives the Grenadier their "Bronze" car of the year award. They specifically point out how well made it is and its durability. "It looks, very very cool", "Extremely well made",

I'll be running away from the mob chasing me with torches and pitchforks now

 

I wanted to utterly hate the Grenadier. I really did.

Then I drove it. Twice: First on an extended test drive through the Seattle metro area with my friend. (We showed up in his 1994 RHD Defender 110 which amused the sales guys at the Seattle Grenadier dealership, by the way in the sketchiest part of town, & they were convinced we were leaving with one). And then this summer, I drove one on an offroad course in the Portland area for potential owners.

It reminded me of my Discovery 2's, kind of. I shockingly really liked the frog-like thing. And trust me -- I went into both test drives telling whoever would listen "you're barking up the wrong tree, I bleed Land Rover, there is no way I will like this truck". I probably came across like a total **** about it tbh. Showing up in my lifted Defender going on about "nah". I changed my tune pretty quickly though.

Offroad, it sort of drives like a more cushy updated Disco 2. A bit more disconnected feeling (drive by wire throttle and shifters), good wheel articulation, tackles obstacles well, etc.

The steering reminded me of an old Land Rover (RRC, D1, D2) if you were to put a new HD non genuine LR steering damper (does anyone get that reference -- where it will not return to center at first ?). The interior plastics reminded me of a helicopter or an Airbus, or a European train or something. Functional, sort of odd, I would not say nice, not high quality really, but not really low quality either. The Recaro seats were comfortable ...

The one I drove in Seattle had a winch on the front. That's cool. It also had actual, real ROCK SLIDERS. Not side steps. Rock sliders. From the factory. Yeah, that's good. It was the one with the little glass pop up roofs on the top. I wonder how long until they leak. They will definitely leak by the way, looking at them. It looks like a t top gasket off an 80's Fiero. Stickered for 93K MSRP. All the options. Uhh, I really liked the thing. It cost just a bit less than my Defender X.

Would I trade my L663 for it? Absolutely not. Let me be really clear. I like the Defender alot better for my purposes. I wouldn't cross shop the car, no more than I'd cross shop a Bronco or a Jeep Wrangler with a Defender. (Sorry Bronco-Bros). Totally different league of design and technology in my opinion.

Would I buy it in addition to my L663? Sure. If for example, I had that rustic cabin in Utah or Montana or Washington that I've wanted for awhile -- where I wanted to keep another car, for use when I was there? Yes. Would it be a complete pain to service with no dealer nearby? Probably so. Would I care? No, I'd get into the forum community and grouse about it and enjoy the challenge. It would give me something to do every time I showed up at the cabin and the thing wouldn't start.

I see them on the road now and I'm very Grenadier-curious. That's a powerful emotion and usually when I feel this way, I end up with one of the damn cars. I've yet to see one on the trails. I can guarantee you that when I do, I'll be having a cuppa with the owner and chatting him (or her) up.

I did have the opportunity to meet a couple who did the Alcan 5000 rally in one this past year, cold turkey. They got the car & 1 week later they left for the start. I asked them -- how did you do that type of adventure in a car you had zero experience in? Usually people spend a long time prepping vehicles for those sorts of trips. They said they changed the tires, packed the car, did nothing else, and were off and it was great. . They are pro's though, and have a lot of life or death type of experience in the wild. They did a bunch of videos of it, you can search and find it online. The Portland Ferrari/Grenadier dealership gave them the car for the adventure -- so it was sponsored and a free ride -- but still, these people would have been critical if they could have been, but they were genuinely pleased with the vehicle's capabilities. I got the guy off to the side and was like "so really, did you actually like it... for real" and he was like "yeah, it was great man. really."

So as much as I want to stab Jim Ratcliffe's eyes out with a poker, burn down that ****ing pub he bought in Belgrave Square in London with it's silly story where they do the product launches in the basement with Chris Harris and co, I really can't. It's not that bad really.

And yes I posted this 18 mos ago:

 

I too am Grenadier-curious.

There's a chap from my neck of the woods on here and has one ordered and now is holding out for the Quartermaster. I really want him to get it so I can get to have a go on it. Would be cracking fun to run some trails with one in the mix this summer.

I think they look great and it may very well be my next car whenever the day comes to part ways with my P400. (no time soon all going well). But LR ditching the 18"s from the P300 has me looking for better options. One big problem. The other half is not Grenadier-curious. She hates the look and wields the veto pen.

I could have a ton of fun in a Trialmaster on 17" steelies. A little Spring lift and 34" tires. Factory sliders available and a metal front bumper on a bone-stock rig is incredible. Getting a used one would be the go. Most never see the dirt in spite of the rugged advertising so a good deal could be had.

Other than the lift and tires, only mod would be to shed the ugly-a$s, pointless RAI. I'm sure a snorkel will be available by then.

 

So...I did a thing...the Ineos Grenadier started me on a path of getting a new winter car...I am coming out of a 2006 Land Cruiser that just had all of the baseline work done...I just wanted more tech. I mentioned said desire to acquire a new vehicle to my wife...AND then we saw some Grenadiers in the mall before Christmas...she hated it...visually (and much like GavinC, she holds the veto pen). There were a lot of accusations about me being a "try-hard, not in the best shape, older dude that would NEVER use such a vehicle as intended..." Well, I REALLY like the boxy style (I have had and build my share of Early Broncos & Jeeps)...needless to say, I am not buying a Grenadier.

So on Sunday, we are at the Toyota dealership to drive the new LC...it was meh, and the cargo space wasn't flat. I convinced her that we should drive the I6 (P400) Defender...and she liked it...like she was surprised she liked it...AND we found this...


I bought it on Sunday and we promptly loaded it up on Monday for the holiday roadtrip...almost 900 miles later and I love it...Now the reason for the post.

I scheduled a test drive with Ineos 2 weeks ago, and have this week off as well...so I did the SUPER dangerous thing of going to test drive something I wanted but didn't get. I was upfront with the salesman and he understood...I just wanted to see if all the bad rumors were true (and they weren't really) and how good the good was...Well, it is as good as I thought...but I would have paid for it in more than one way. The Defender checks all the boxes and is REALLY good on long drives.

The Grenadier felt like my EBs with an update...it wanted to go wheeling and get muddy. It was cool...it has good road manners, but it is no way as refined as the Defender (nor did I expect it to be).

There won't be an IG in my driveway anytime soon, but it is a neat rig...

 

I have driven a grenadier off road and it is absolutely amazing. I think the people who are used to driving modern land rovers are the ones who don't like them because they aren't used to driving solid axle , vehicles down the road. The old defender is no offense, a piece of junk compared to a grenadier. Even those $200k defenders, that you can buy special order.Still have that crappy old sheet metal wrinkled\nNot straight in the sunlight look 😆 i recently watched the video where a guy cut open a grenadier prototype that was not allowed to be sold or driven. The frame is so much bigger and solid and it's injected with this waxy tar stuff to not rust ever never! The axles , literally , the housing and the differentials are so massive front and rear. Other than all the off road design , they have with those connection points all over the body and stuff the entire vehicle is completely purpose built. The one I drove off road was amazing. Way better than a modern defender and an old defender. I understand it's weird because it looks like one but the owner tried to buy the rights to keep producing the crappy original ones. I'm glad land rover didn't let him because this completely new design is way better way sronger and old defender would never , ever ever be as tough as one of these. An old defender is a lightweight rust bucket, outdated. Even the later models used D2 wabco traction control instead of current LR technology 😆 I can afford one someday I will absolutely get one.It is meant to last. You need to watch the video when the guy completely takes one apart and cuts into the frame and shows you what they are about. Basically , imagine the g wagon for less money and a lot more space , less unnecessary luxury and better track width and angles. They've already taken them through the baja , california race. Amazing solid trucks. A total success. Like I said , if you're used to driving an older rover or a jeep on the road , it is no problem.