I think part of the problem is that JLR Marketing is sending a mixed message to buyers. They show us highly produced videos of Defenders driving off road, hold off-road press events, and tell us how great the off-road capabilities are. And then tell us they come with 20” wheels and street tires so you can look cool at the shopping mall? Um, I’m confused.

 

Insider:

For the last few months I've been considering a base Defender 90. My build is very modest, around $56K US. I love the idea of a basic Defender, no frills, utilitarian. But I've all but given up ordering one, not because of the long wait but the ridiculous markups dealers adding to MSRP for orders. ($10,000.00+ for a base Defender?) This take all the fun out of building and purchasing a Land Rover. The dealers come off as opportunists, looking to make a quick buck instead of creating a customer for life. This approach is short sighted and frankly diminishes your brand. I sent an email to your customer care with my concerns... never heard back from them. End this nonsense.

 

He's already addressed this.

 

Dear Insider.

Thank you catering to us with disposable income. I’m very loyal to JLR products and have had 10 vehicles in the last 9 years, and currently drive two Autobiography’s (one an SVO) L405 Full Size, and previously a P400 HSE and now an awesome P300 Trek!

I sincerely appreciate your candor and open discussions. Cheers! Don’t change a thing!

 

Mechano2020,

Because you’re such a good customer I’m going to try and answer your questions and observations twice

1) I don’t know much about Hollywood celebrities, but then again I don’t know much about Bollywood, the latest K-Pop groups or the current music sensation in Germany. None of those kinds of things influence the direction we take with car design or initiatives. EV vehicles are simply red hot in luxury and we’ve reached a tipping point in terms of sales and market interest. Even outside of luxury the new Ford Lightning EV pickup was so popular they had to stop taking orders completely due to the overwhelming demand. EV demand levels aside, as a global player we have to respect the laws and regulations of countries around the world.

Interestingly, you mention that you’re a “regular folk” but I highly doubt that (and I mean that in a positive sense). Anyone on this forum who has purchased a new Land Rover is not a member of the mainstream population (whether in the US, Europe or Asia, etc).

The Median household income of a Defender buyer in the United States is around $300K USD right now. For our Range Rover buyers it’s about $550K USD with 25% earning one million or more USD per year. Since Land Rover/Range Rover came to the US market in 1987 we’ve always catered to the upper-middle and upper classes (which most tend to regard as the elites). 85% of our buyers hold a University degree and 1 in 3 have a Masters or PhD. Compare that to the general population of the United States, which has a median household income of around $68,000 with the majority holding what you call a High School education (Secondary School here). Many Land Rover owners have their own businesses or hold leadership positions while others are accomplished tradesmen or specialists. In fact, it’s always a true joy to meet our LR owners as most have wonderful origin stories.

Those looking fondly on the good old days of the original Defender when it was on sale in the US should be reminded that the starting price of that classic in 1995 adjusted for inflation is around $55,000 today. Farmers in the UK stopped using Series Land Rovers and Defenders thirty years ago and switched to more practical pickups for their sheep and dirt hauling needs. So while I understand our roots from 1946 to 1986 were quite heavy in off-roading, farming and exploration- that’s another era. It’s an era that helped build us into the company we are today, but also a bygone era that doesn’t exist anymore. We’ve charted the African continent, farmers have moved to big equipment and road systems are mostly developed around the world.

2) Yes, we heard about the Texas semiconductor factory and it’s good to see. However, development from start to finish of a semiconductor factory can take as long as 4-5 years. Additionally, automotive tends to mostly use low profit legacy chips versus other industries, so a lot of semiconductor investment we’re seeing now globally won’t actually benefit automotive. That said, any new factory is welcome and it's good to see the US getting more heavily into the game.

3) I can tell you’re a big diesel fan (and so am I) but the truth is when we brought Diesel to the US in 2016 they wound up flopping after a few months. Retailers started to struggle with them and they started piling up at port and on floor plans and the revolt started. Retailers pay attention to their money very closely and how quickly things turnover. Once a product starts costing them more money than it makes them the supply starts drying up and they stop placing stock orders. No surprise that finding a 2017 anything in diesel was somewhat challenging depending on your region. The colder regions especially disliked them because of Diesel gelling issues and angry customers. The Audi/VW scandal was the nail in the coffin as most people in the posh class wanted no association with anything Diesel. Today, Diesel is virtually extinct among luxury manufacturers.

Thanks again for your support and I appreciate your passion and feedback. I can certainly identify with what you're saying, but we go where the world takes us as time marches on.

 

Well, disappointing our customers is not what we aim for at JLR so let me attempt to assuage your concerns. The problem you have with 19” tyres is less about the actual size and more about what’s available so far. Unfortunately, there hasn’t been enough demand in that size yet (it’s quite new) to cause the tyre companies to commit to an additional mold. However, technically speaking it’s a very good size. It provides low wheel weight, sufficient rim protection, good ride quality and covers most off-road needs. In fact it’s a vast improvement over our older 19” options. Let me explain why. On older Land Rovers like the Discovery 3 and 4 (LR3/LR4 in US) we used a 255/55/19 tyre, which had a sidewall height of 140mm/5.5” while the 255/65/19 tire on the new Defender has a sidewall height of 165mm/6.5”. That’s a huge improvement! It’s a big tire though and we’re a little ahead of the field. The old 255/55/19 now has dozens of available tyre options (take a look), but the new 19” is just getting going.

In terms of betrayal and other such dramatic characterizations-that’s not the case. Quite honestly, we provide a canvas for people to work upon. Some people will never venture off-road and they value silence, smoothness, cornering ability on pavement and fuel economy above all else, others want to crawl over rocks and mud. Everyone has a different idea of what a Land Rover should be and what it should excel at on a daily basis. We tend to provide far more wheel and tire options than most manufacturers and offer something for everyone.

That said, if you require more than the Duratrac can provide and plan on dealing with extremes I recommend either the 18” option (P300) or the 20” option (P400). On the 20” option shift to a 265/60/20 instead of the standard 255/60/20 and that will provide an additional measure of sidewall height, rim protection and overall diameter (32.6”) while maintaining clearance. If you run a heavy weight tyre in that size (like the BF Goodrich KO2) and use the pressures we recommend- you won’t pinch flat with 160mm/6.3” of sidewall. DO NOT AIR DOWN LOW PROFILE TYRES. This is what caused TFL so much trouble. Let the systems we designed do their job. Lower pressures with any less than 180mm/7.0” of sidewall height will fail you.

Good luck and I’ll pass on your feedback!

 

GavinC,

Thank you! Glad you find it helpful.

I’m surprised you didn’t wind up in the Discovery, which has a roomier third row and more cargo space. It should be a better fit than the D110 in that regard. It’s a great vehicle-though very different than the Defender in tone and style.

In regard to the 20” wheels- don’t cringe! If you switch to a more aggressive tyre in size 265/60/20 you’ll be just fine with the added sidewall and rim protection (just don’t lower the tyre pressure!). Although the wheels are getting bigger these days, so is the overall diameter of the tyre. There's more sidewall on your 20" tyre than our old 19" options. Wheel size in itself means nothing-it's what you wrap around it. We now offer multiple 23" wheel options on the new L460 Range Rover because the overall tyre size has increased.

Hope this helps!

 

Everyone has different reasons for buying a Defender and we try to respect all of our buyers.

That said, the 19" and 20" wheels work just fine off-road and we do plenty of off-roading on them. Wheel size is not what's important-it's the size of the tyre around the wheel. Almost all of our press cars and off-road event vehicles use 19/20/22 inch wheels with few exceptions. If you are going to get wild in extreme conditions than the 18" on the P300 will suit you, or you can modify your P400.

Here's some footage of amateurs driving around our muddy course with 20" wheels and tyres:
Even in deep water with no prior off-road experience the Defender will get the job done for drivers. Put someone knowledgeable behind the wheel and they'll fly through the course.

 

Mark!

What a wonderful collection of vehicles! Thank you so much for your support and interest in the brand over the years. We can't tell you how much we love to hear from our longtime owners.

Have you attended any clinics or customer events over the past year in LA? These vehicles look very familiar to me.

 

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IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO HEAR A MILEAGE INTERVAL RECOMMENDATION FOR TRANSMISSION AND DIFFERENTIAL FLUID CHANGES WHEN USING THE DEFENDER PREDOMINATELY AS A TOW VEHICLE.

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Sorry I missed this question earlier. If you're doing heavy towing and working the car hard then I'd be changing that differential fluid at 50K miles. Cheap insurance. The active locking diffs require special fluid-use the specified fluid.

The transmission is more complicated as it's dependent more on how the mileage was acquired rather than the mileage itself.

That said, I've talked with ZF about this before and the consensus is generally if you're going to be a transmission fluid changer you really don't want to start later than 75K miles. You run into issues when you start upsetting things on a high mileage transmission. Do not flush the transmission and do not worry about the filter (the capacity is huge on these units). Just partial drain and refill every 75k with the factory fluid. This must be done carefully though-over or under filling will cause problems. One of the reasons manufacturers went to lifetime fill on transmissions is because it's easy to screw up and you get too many problems changing fluid on higher mileage vehicles. Neither manufacturers or retailers want/need the trouble.