Every Land Rover is an off-road vehicle. The Defender, Discovery, Range Rover and RRS are incredibly capable off-road. The Velar, Disco Sport and Evoque, while not as capable due to ground clearance, lack of a two speed transfer case etc. are significantly more capable than any of their competitors.

Also, they probably got rid of the 18" wheels due to a lack of demand. Unfortunately, people like us aren't the average JLR customer, and only make up a small percentage of customers. People want luxury and people want big wheels. If they aren't selling a lot of 18" wheels, it makes sense to drop it from a manufacturing and a financial perspective. GMA did the same thing with the T.50. Gordon Murray was going to offer a 6-speed manual and a single-clutch automatic. Most people wanted the manual, and only a few people ordered the automatic, so Gordon decided there was no reason to invest the cash for something only a few people were going to buy. It streamlines production when you have fewer components.

Unfortunately, I don't think 18" wheels will be making a return. If I was JLR, I'd offer them only as a special-order option or a dealer-installed accessory.

 

This is a fun thread and probably should be its own thread titled something like "LandRover old vs new."

My 2 cents:
I've owned a 2004 Discovery and a 2022 Defender. Had them both offroad a lot in different terrain (mud, dirt, sand, rocks, steep hills) except for rock crawling...

My Disco had 18" wheels with 265/60 Cooper Rugged Treks and it was a beast. A Beast! It could handle anything. Chewed it up and spit it out. It drove like a tank and was rugged and tough. Stylewise, If it was a watch, it would be a chunky dive watch with an Automatic movement, like an Omega Seamaster or Seiko Diver.

My Defender has 20" wheels with 255/60 GY Wranglers and also 275/55 BFG KO2s at times. I love love love the looks, but offroad has been a different story. She feels capable, but not tough. Struggles a little in terrain the Disco laughed at. She feels restrained. I think it's partly the 20" wheel/tires holding her back but also it's just a sign of modern engineering relying on gadgets and computers rather than driver-expertise. Stylewise, If she were a watch, shed be a classy sleek watch, like a Rolex Datejust. Maybe even a battery powered quartz movement or (gasp) a smartwatch.

Bottom line is that we're in an age where tough mechanical trucks are fading away and being replaced by road yacht offroad-wannabees that hafta "almost" walk the walk to earn credibility, but dont really need to be fully capable offroaders. The Defender is one of the best of the new style. But it doesn't compare to the Rovers of yore. (Just my humble opinion.)

Some pics of my babies

 

I agree with most of what you said. I've driven a handful of D2s, and they are as tough as nails. You do feel like the king of the road in one. Objectively, on paper the Defender is better off-road in every measurable way than a D2 with the exception of axle articulation. Tires are the most important thing you can do off-road, and the Wrangler Adventures aren't the best. One of the things I've come to learn is to always make sure you are in the correct Terrain Response mode. Auto is great if you have it, but it is reactive and it will take a moment to figure out what kind of terrain you're on. It is excellent on-road when road conditions change, however. Off-road I always manually select the most appropriate program for what I'm driving over, and it has never skipped a beat. In fact, JLR holds the pattent for TR and similar systems, and other automakers have to pay JLR royalties to implement similar tech in their vehicles. This is why every other terrain management system is inferior to Terrain Response. If I was on technical trails, I'd prefer an old D2 for sure. I wouldn't want to take my $70k car through a forest and get covered in pinstripes. Of course you can have it wrapped to prevent this, but I digress.

There are no true old-school off-roaders out there other than maybe the Grenadier, but that thing is absolute horse****. Utterly useless on-road, great off-road and has less equipment than a Somalian jail. Wranglers and Broncos are still excellent - more refined than a Grenadier, but still compromised. I feel like the Defender is just as good if not better off-road than a Wrangler in most conditions other than technical rock crawling, and still offers the ride quality and driving dynamics of a luxury SUV. It has very few compromises and is the best all-rounder in the off-road segment.

 

I completely agree here. When my wife and I were looking at adding an off-roader we evaluated these three… the D90, 2 door Sasquatch bronco, and 2 door rubicon. Not only could the D90 get cleaned up and be presentable for every day duties it could still go very far off-road.

On top of that it can tow 2.5times more than the other two which is extremely useful for us. This tow rating demonstrates objectively that the D90 has far superior brakes, cooling, and handling in order to accomplish this. Not that this isn’t immediately obvious from a seat of the pants test but sometimes hard numbers tell the story best.

 

"I feel like the Defender is just as good if not better off-road than a Wrangler in most conditions other than technical rock crawling"

I'm going to have to disagree as someone who's owned a 2017 JK, 2018 JL, and 2021 JL Wrangler Rubicon. The Defender on-road is equivalent to a European luxury sedan and that's where it shines, although the Wrangler surprisingly has a lot of comfort features the Defender lacks. The Defender will take you from New Jersey to California in comfort, assuming it doesn't break down and leave you on the side of the highway as I experienced. The off-road Terrain Response is excellent, and there is a ton of technology and gadgets, but this tech only has so much value when the vehicle is sitting on 20-22" wheels and low profile tires. I believe we have to judge the vehicle as delivered by JLR to customers rather than what the vehicle can do if customers build it up with aftermarket mods. As we've been discussing - the front recovery point isn't even accessible without having to take off the front lower bumper, sawing a hole through it, or purchasing more expensive accessories.

The Wrangler Rubicon - I can point the nose in any direction through any terrain or obstacle with little thought about damaging wheels, tires, suspension, etc. Put the pedal down and send it. On the rare occasion it can't make it through something, any bubba can throw a tow strap on the very accessible recovery hooks on the steel bumper and yank it out. The Wrangler primarily relies on mechanical solutions like physical lockers, sway bar disconnects, and a much lower gear ratio, but it also has hill decent control and some other ABS-related tech. It doesn't need the additional whiz-bang gadgets because it has mechanical advantages. As for the day-to-day features, mine had heated leather seats, heated steering wheel, dual zone climate control, adaptive cruise control, all engine gauges could be displayed on the Nav, 500-watt Alpine stereo, and the best part - the heated seats and steering wheel would activate automatically under 37F with the remote start. The Defender doesn't allow any of those features to activate remotely. The Wrangler remote start could also be activated via key fob or the app - I can't remote start the Defender at all when we're off-road because there's no cell phone signal! Also, the three Wranglers never left me stranded 100+ miles away from home. That's a big feature.

The Wrangler is objectively the better off road vehicle. The Defender is a better overall package for most people who need a SUV to reach their Airbnb cabin or the mountain bike trailhead at a national park. The wheels and tires completely kneecap the vehicle. Look at what Lexus did with the GX550 Overtrail and think about what the Defender would be if JLR took a lesson from Toyota (or even Jeep for that matter). They're not building a fashion statement for the tech bros in San Franciso - they're building a tool people will actually use to explore the outdoors.

 

I guess we all have our opinions. I drive my Defender anywhere I want to through all kinds off off road obstacles and it’s just fine, great even. I have some modifications like decent all terrain tires and a roof rack… eventually will do an expedition one winch bumper… but the D90 is short enough it can bridge through an awful lot. Yes I have some pin stripes in the pain and one of my wheels has a scuff (20”) from a distracted poor line choice.

But I realize it’s a tool not a jewel.

It overall beats the pants off that wrangler for the 90% I optimize for. And that includes plenty of washed out and rutted mountain roads that I end up three wheeling over as well as a significant amount of in town and highway miles. I don’t have as much JL experience but my dad has a JK with nearing 300k miles (2 engines, lots of keeping it on the road). There isn’t really any time the jeep is better except on those perfect sunny days with the top off (so long as no highway is required).

 

I don't think you can buy one vehicle that is perfect in every way for everything you want to do. It's always a compromise.

Since this is a transmission thread, let's start there...I prefer a manual transmission and only drove manuals for 30+ years until we got the LR3. Maybe there are 50 of us here that would want a manual Defender so that will never happen. I wish the Defender had the amazing LR3/LR4 split tailgate and the spare tire was underneath. You could carry long objects with the bottom half down, the top half kept you dry when loading groceries in the rain. And you could add a hitch bike rack without extensions. And somehow they even packaged useful third row seats with the spare underneath. No idea why the spare couldn't have gone underneath a 110 without third row seats.

I drive the Defender on the beach in soft sand and the low traction launch technology is beyond amazing. Sure I would prefer 18's off road but the 20's work fine if aired down. I haul heavy boxes for work, so no sagging butt with the self-leveling air suspension. In snow mode with winter tires I can drive to VT in blizzard conditions. Then make it to the mountain in low gear with the suspension raised on unplowed backroads the next morning.

My neighbor just bought a new GX because he thinks it's reliable and his wife likes the way it looks, which are their priorities. I wouldn't buy it because we are a tall family and find mandatory running boards annoying. Another neighbor has a manual Rubicon which I think I may want until he told me it is exhausting to drive on the highway when it's really windy. I've already put nearly 40K miles on my Defender in 18 months and it handles so well on the highway.

It's all about priorities and finding a compromise that works for you.

 

Yep, the only difference, worst case, is whether you pull the Defender out of trouble, or pull the towing eye out of the Defender

Looking at what I wrote again, maybe "essential" is a bit too strong, but I did my research twice - the first time in January 2023, then this summer, and all the things I wanted that made me make a decision to buy the X trim back then (specifically, bigger screen, electrically adjusted steering column, ClearSight mirror) trickled down to X-Dynamic SE, which made X pointless. I also see some things that may have not existed in earlier model years - for example, there's no mention of a three zone climate control, whereas now it available as an option.

But yes, in a nutshell, you're right - it's either quality of life, or cosmetic.

 

The reason I am here is because my Recon was totaled not because the damage was unrepairable, but because there were no spare parts from Stellantis. Insurance simply paid me off (fairly) and then jacked up the premium (to the sky).

From what I hear, Stellantis is doing worse and worse every year, that's the second reason I'm here. Not to mention the third reason, they think people will buy a $100,000 Wrangler. They will mod it to 100K and beyond, sure, but *buy*? No. And then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, all the way down.

 

Most of those features were moved to the X when JLR was going through major supply chain issues and parts shortages. The S was available with the 11.4" screen in 2022, the SE came standard with the power steering column, and the ClearSight Mirror was also available on all trim levels before they had supply chain issues. The three-zone climate has been available since the introduction of the Defender.

Even after the supply chain issues were resolved, they still decided to make many of these features standard only on the X. Now you're right, they are trickling down to other trim levels like it was initially.