2nd Round of Headgaskets-16,500 miles ago
Three Wheeling
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 68
Likes: 1
Yeah, there's a lot of good reading over there. Many dudes think the torques are high for the ARP studs, and have used lower values to good effect.
I personally think about all the metal on this truck, much of which seems to be a steel-butter alloy. And then I think about bolts that are supposed to stretch an extremely precise amount when most of the bolts on this truck just break.
And then I realize there's no way I'm using stretch bolts on my truck.
I'm convinced the main 'advantage' of TTY bolts is manufacturers don't have to torque HG bolts anymore. Just slap 'em in there and crank 'em down 90+90. DONE. It's good for them, but bad for us.
I personally think about all the metal on this truck, much of which seems to be a steel-butter alloy. And then I think about bolts that are supposed to stretch an extremely precise amount when most of the bolts on this truck just break.
And then I realize there's no way I'm using stretch bolts on my truck.
I'm convinced the main 'advantage' of TTY bolts is manufacturers don't have to torque HG bolts anymore. Just slap 'em in there and crank 'em down 90+90. DONE. It's good for them, but bad for us.
please read my post. TTY bolts are far superior from a engineering perspective. They require more work to put on because they have to be "set" 3 times rather than having a machine run them down once to a single torque specification
the bolts also don't "stretch and extremely precise amount" compared to any other bolts. ALL bolts stretch and have elastic deformation and plastic deformation. They are called "stretch" bolts because they are torqued within 2% of the yield point and become stretched to plastic deformation. What this ACTUALLY means is that they stretch very little. "NORMAL" bolts and studs stretch all over the place and have extremely inconsistent clamping force as a result of being in a state of elasticity (25%~ from yield point)
Just as you claim they are BS and just to save money, I'll say the opposition to them is BS and is just to save money. People just don't like buying more head bolts.The difference is I have an explanation for why
Last edited by sidescrollin; Jan 29, 2014 at 10:44 PM.
Three Wheeling
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 68
Likes: 1
In fact, page 421 of the RAVE states "the cooling system used on the V8 engine is a pressure relief by-pass type system which allows coolant to circulate around the cylinder block and the heater circuit when the thermostat is closed. With coolant not passing through the radiator, this promotes faster heater warm-up which in turn improves passenger comfort."
Also note that it says "in cold ambient temperatures the engine temperature can be raised by up to 10°C (50°F) to compensate for the heat loss of the 10% exposure to the cold coolant returning from the radiator bottom hose." So the stock thermo automatically raises overall engine temp by up to 50 degrees when it wants to. Talk about temperature swings!
Please ask if you are not understanding, but these two things mean LESS "temperature swings".
-If the thermostat were to open normally and disregard that 10 degree then the very cold radiator coolant (lets say 15 degree F) meeting the warm engine coolant would cause temp swing and close the stat again after mixing with the warmed coolant. Because of this function the engine can warm to a point where this very cold radiator coolant doesn't pose as such a shock and doesn't cause the coolant to dip below operating temperature as a result of the stat opening
- Bypass systems are used in most vehicles so coolant circulates and warms as the engine warms up, the bypass valve shut when the thermostat opens. There MUST be a bypass system so the water pump doesn't cavitate. With this system coolant stays in the engine until it is warm enough that it needs to be cooled. Without a thermostat the engine would always have coolant passed through the radiator flowing into it and would take MUCH longer to warm up.
Last edited by sidescrollin; Jan 29, 2014 at 10:43 PM.
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 11
From: mini soda
Possibly meaningless tidbit: when torquing the stud nuts 25-50-75, the last 2 torques are very close to 90*-90*.
Three Wheeling
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 68
Likes: 1
that just explains how the vast majority of cooling system in ALL vehicles operate lol
that is fantastic!!! This brilliant design including the bypass valve in the thermostat means that some of the cool radiator fluid account for sensed temperature at the thermostat. At normal/warm ambient temperatures this is negligible. But when cold this means that the thermostat waits longer to open so the GREATER than normal temperature difference between the radiator coolant and already warmed engine coolant isn't such a shock on the system.
Please ask if you are not understanding, but these two things mean LESS "temperature swings".
-If the thermostat were to open normally and disregard that 10 degree then the very cold radiator coolant (lets say 15 degree F) meeting the warm engine coolant would cause temp swing and close the stat again after mixing with the warmed coolant. Because of this function the engine can warm to a point where this very cold radiator coolant doesn't pose as such a shock and doesn't cause the coolant to dip below operating temperature as a result of the stat opening
- Bypass systems are used in most vehicles so coolant circulates and warms as the engine warms up, the bypass valve shut when the thermostat opens. There MUST be a bypass system so the water pump doesn't cavitate. With this system coolant stays in the engine until it is warm enough that it needs to be cooled. Without a thermostat the engine would always have coolant passed through the radiator flowing into it and would take MUCH longer to warm up.
that is fantastic!!! This brilliant design including the bypass valve in the thermostat means that some of the cool radiator fluid account for sensed temperature at the thermostat. At normal/warm ambient temperatures this is negligible. But when cold this means that the thermostat waits longer to open so the GREATER than normal temperature difference between the radiator coolant and already warmed engine coolant isn't such a shock on the system.
Please ask if you are not understanding, but these two things mean LESS "temperature swings".
-If the thermostat were to open normally and disregard that 10 degree then the very cold radiator coolant (lets say 15 degree F) meeting the warm engine coolant would cause temp swing and close the stat again after mixing with the warmed coolant. Because of this function the engine can warm to a point where this very cold radiator coolant doesn't pose as such a shock and doesn't cause the coolant to dip below operating temperature as a result of the stat opening
- Bypass systems are used in most vehicles so coolant circulates and warms as the engine warms up, the bypass valve shut when the thermostat opens. There MUST be a bypass system so the water pump doesn't cavitate. With this system coolant stays in the engine until it is warm enough that it needs to be cooled. Without a thermostat the engine would always have coolant passed through the radiator flowing into it and would take MUCH longer to warm up.
However torquing to 3 settings "close to 90" on one head can be totally different results on another that has dirtier threads or more resistance in the threads otherwise. 90% of that torque applied is lost to friction and only about 10% ends up as the actual clamping force. Amount of rotation is much more accurate and much less likely to warp the head or cause another head gasket failure.
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,169
Likes: 52
From: Tampa, FL
Go over to DW and do some research, then maybe you'll understand what we are talking about. Pulling block threads isn't the exception, it's the rule. That's why many people are switching to studs, not because they are cheap and reusable. They are switching because the stretch bolts tear up the block, and studs give the option of trying lower torques to stress the block less.
I'm done with this thread. But you might consider reading up a bit so you know what you are talking about before you start "educating" people.
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 11
From: mini soda
However torquing to 3 settings "close to 90" on one head can be totally different results on another that has dirtier threads or more resistance in the threads otherwise. 90% of that torque applied is lost to friction and only about 10% ends up as the actual clamping force.
Baja
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,298
Likes: 318
From: Boston Strong
ARP - Official Web Site | 2014 Catalog
some of you might want to read to page 38.
and read the reason it is worth the extra $50.00. if it doesn't make scene to you
don't use them; on a block that is known to have cracked head bolt holes.
but please take the time to make an "edge-a-micated" decision.
some of you might want to read to page 38.
and read the reason it is worth the extra $50.00. if it doesn't make scene to you
don't use them; on a block that is known to have cracked head bolt holes.
but please take the time to make an "edge-a-micated" decision.
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 811
Likes: 78
From: Howell, NJ
This really irritates me. I wasn't going to reply to you because you're a troll, but now it's clear you have done no research on Land Rover engines and their problems.
Go over to DW and do some research, then maybe you'll understand what we are talking about. Pulling block threads isn't the exception, it's the rule. That's why many people are switching to studs, not because they are cheap and reusable. They are switching because the stretch bolts tear up the block, and studs give the option of trying lower torques to stress the block less.
I'm done with this thread. But you might consider reading up a bit so you know what you are talking about before you start "educating" people.
Go over to DW and do some research, then maybe you'll understand what we are talking about. Pulling block threads isn't the exception, it's the rule. That's why many people are switching to studs, not because they are cheap and reusable. They are switching because the stretch bolts tear up the block, and studs give the option of trying lower torques to stress the block less.
I'm done with this thread. But you might consider reading up a bit so you know what you are talking about before you start "educating" people.
TReK
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,171
Likes: 45
LandroverMastertech Rulz.
I have only done two heads.
Both times I have used factory head bolts as prescribed by Land Rover.
I think that the people ripping out theads are not paying attention to the initial torque and are not understanding what 90 degrees is.
You need to paint a stripe down the middle of the head bolt and pay attention to how many degrees you are turning it.
And I would venture...
The threads which do strip?
DO threads get weaker in an overheated aluminum block?
I don't know that answer.
I have only done two heads.
Both times I have used factory head bolts as prescribed by Land Rover.
I think that the people ripping out theads are not paying attention to the initial torque and are not understanding what 90 degrees is.
You need to paint a stripe down the middle of the head bolt and pay attention to how many degrees you are turning it.
And I would venture...
The threads which do strip?
DO threads get weaker in an overheated aluminum block?
I don't know that answer.
Three Wheeling
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 68
Likes: 1
This really irritates me. I wasn't going to reply to you because you're a troll, but now it's clear you have done no research on Land Rover engines and their problems.
Go over to DW and do some research, then maybe you'll understand what we are talking about. Pulling block threads isn't the exception, it's the rule. That's why many people are switching to studs, not because they are cheap and reusable. They are switching because the stretch bolts tear up the block, and studs give the option of trying lower torques to stress the block less.
I'm done with this thread. But you might consider reading up a bit so you know what you are talking about before you start "educating" people.
Go over to DW and do some research, then maybe you'll understand what we are talking about. Pulling block threads isn't the exception, it's the rule. That's why many people are switching to studs, not because they are cheap and reusable. They are switching because the stretch bolts tear up the block, and studs give the option of trying lower torques to stress the block less.
I'm done with this thread. But you might consider reading up a bit so you know what you are talking about before you start "educating" people.
"trying lower torques"
At what point could you decide on your own that the at specific torque settings hasn't torn up the threads but is high enough that it won't be too loose?? Do you just randomly try 30 ft lbs and then if you blow a head gasket you try 40 ft lbs next time?That makes zero sense.
It sounds like you are one of the people that gives this company a bad rap for reliability
