Coolant in oil. No obvious cause.
Rock Crawling
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 290
Likes: 5
From: Odenville Alabama
A bad seal between the head and block would probably show up as a whole set of other problems, misfires, external coolant leak, failed exhaust gas test, etc.
The OP's main symptom is coolant in the oil pan.
But in this universe, anything is possible. I wouldn't rule out any of the suggested causes yet.
The following is from my personal experience, and in no way should be considered typical. (I hope it's not typical)
Mild overheat caused by a failed pressure cap. Had some coolant in the oil, but not excessive. Drained and refilled with fresh oil and flushed coolant system per instructions on the block sealer can. Followed instructions to the letter. I don't remember the exact sequence, but it involved a period of high idle and bringing the engine up to operating temp. After the idle/warm up period and also a prayer to the Rover Gods, I had over a gallon of water in the oil pan when I shut it down.
The lord only gives us what we are equipped to handle, but sometimes he pushes the limit.
Good Luck.
The OP's main symptom is coolant in the oil pan.
But in this universe, anything is possible. I wouldn't rule out any of the suggested causes yet.
The following is from my personal experience, and in no way should be considered typical. (I hope it's not typical)
Mild overheat caused by a failed pressure cap. Had some coolant in the oil, but not excessive. Drained and refilled with fresh oil and flushed coolant system per instructions on the block sealer can. Followed instructions to the letter. I don't remember the exact sequence, but it involved a period of high idle and bringing the engine up to operating temp. After the idle/warm up period and also a prayer to the Rover Gods, I had over a gallon of water in the oil pan when I shut it down.
The lord only gives us what we are equipped to handle, but sometimes he pushes the limit.
Good Luck.
Winching
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 610
Likes: 1
Check this link out:
http://cannibalv8.com
Even better,
http://cannibalv8.com/cannibalv8-eng...ck-in-my-block
Rock Crawling
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 452
Likes: 26
From: Oregon, north of Salem
Before doing anything more extensive, be sure to determine for sure that Timing case gasket is not leaking--jacket to timing case interior. If that proves sound:
You: "It appears that no machining had been done to the heads, but I did not see any obvious damage or warping."
___________________________
Without measuring, a person cannot with naked eye, detect warping that is enough to cause serious problems. Heads should ALWAYS be measured by an auto. machine shop, corner to corner, to determine if warping has taken place; if it has, they NEED to be milled flat again, by machine shop. Otherwise, you are risking installing warped heads (aluminum heads are notorious for warping when overheated), with resulting problems to follow.
You: ". . . . . .With a decent compression test, i would not think significant coolant got past the rings to the oil."
True, it won't, BUT
__________________________
You: "It does not seem likely that a sleeve would leak into the sump and cylinder at the same time."
___________________________
Oh, yes it will. cracks in thin aluminum wall behind liner, will allow coolant from water jacket to leak out of those cracks, and move upward into combustion chamber, and downward too, directly into your oil pan. This isn't to say that this IS your problem; it could certainly be something else.
"These motors are notorious for being excessively porous as a result of the casting process and they develop micro fissures in the casting which can ultimately lead to major cracks. Overheating is incredibly bad for them."
________________________
I don't subscribe to the idea that these aluminum blocks are, or get, porous; I consider such legends as myth, based on having closely examined a good many of them. Considering how thin the water jacket walls are, behind cylinder liners, porosity issues need not be to blame, when, clearly the blame lies with too thin walls behind liners. Proof of this is found when one considers that earlier Buick and early Rover blocks had no issues with cracking behind liners; such cracking issues became paramount only when Rover bored out the blocks for its 4.0/4.6 litre versions (same wall thicknesses behind liners). Additionally, as Rover became aware of such issues, it, at first, following the block casting process, began examining the spacing between cylinder bore holes, and wall thicknesses of water jackets, etc. by hand, ultrasonic scanning them, a process which later was automated. They used blocks with thickest water jacket walls for the 4.6L and the ones with thinner walls for the 4.0 L blocks. Ones that didn't meet thickness requirements, were scrapped. The stress put on the aluminum blocks, in critical areas, such as at base of threaded head bolt holes (which happen to be exactly across from thin water jacket walls where cracking occurs in almost all cases), and stress put on the thin water jacket walls by the pressed in liners, combined with overheating of the engines, is what causes the cracking; not something too often referred to as porosity. Thus, I have found that it is best to avoid using standard Rover stretch head bolts, but using instead, the studs/nuts, which exert less stress at base of threaded bolt holes on blocks, where almost always, the cracking takes place.
If thin walls behind cylinder liners are cracked to any degree, they are not scrap, as most people assume they are. The liners can be removed, and the walls aluminum TIG welded to as new condition, machined down welds to fit in new cylinder liners. Tig welding aluminum heads/blocks is now commonplace; easily done. I have had it done for me, by specialty shops that do only that; with no problems to follow. I myself do Tig welding too, so I understand how well it works.
You: "It appears that no machining had been done to the heads, but I did not see any obvious damage or warping."
___________________________
Without measuring, a person cannot with naked eye, detect warping that is enough to cause serious problems. Heads should ALWAYS be measured by an auto. machine shop, corner to corner, to determine if warping has taken place; if it has, they NEED to be milled flat again, by machine shop. Otherwise, you are risking installing warped heads (aluminum heads are notorious for warping when overheated), with resulting problems to follow.
You: ". . . . . .With a decent compression test, i would not think significant coolant got past the rings to the oil."
True, it won't, BUT
__________________________
You: "It does not seem likely that a sleeve would leak into the sump and cylinder at the same time."
___________________________
Oh, yes it will. cracks in thin aluminum wall behind liner, will allow coolant from water jacket to leak out of those cracks, and move upward into combustion chamber, and downward too, directly into your oil pan. This isn't to say that this IS your problem; it could certainly be something else.
"These motors are notorious for being excessively porous as a result of the casting process and they develop micro fissures in the casting which can ultimately lead to major cracks. Overheating is incredibly bad for them."
________________________
I don't subscribe to the idea that these aluminum blocks are, or get, porous; I consider such legends as myth, based on having closely examined a good many of them. Considering how thin the water jacket walls are, behind cylinder liners, porosity issues need not be to blame, when, clearly the blame lies with too thin walls behind liners. Proof of this is found when one considers that earlier Buick and early Rover blocks had no issues with cracking behind liners; such cracking issues became paramount only when Rover bored out the blocks for its 4.0/4.6 litre versions (same wall thicknesses behind liners). Additionally, as Rover became aware of such issues, it, at first, following the block casting process, began examining the spacing between cylinder bore holes, and wall thicknesses of water jackets, etc. by hand, ultrasonic scanning them, a process which later was automated. They used blocks with thickest water jacket walls for the 4.6L and the ones with thinner walls for the 4.0 L blocks. Ones that didn't meet thickness requirements, were scrapped. The stress put on the aluminum blocks, in critical areas, such as at base of threaded head bolt holes (which happen to be exactly across from thin water jacket walls where cracking occurs in almost all cases), and stress put on the thin water jacket walls by the pressed in liners, combined with overheating of the engines, is what causes the cracking; not something too often referred to as porosity. Thus, I have found that it is best to avoid using standard Rover stretch head bolts, but using instead, the studs/nuts, which exert less stress at base of threaded bolt holes on blocks, where almost always, the cracking takes place.
If thin walls behind cylinder liners are cracked to any degree, they are not scrap, as most people assume they are. The liners can be removed, and the walls aluminum TIG welded to as new condition, machined down welds to fit in new cylinder liners. Tig welding aluminum heads/blocks is now commonplace; easily done. I have had it done for me, by specialty shops that do only that; with no problems to follow. I myself do Tig welding too, so I understand how well it works.
Last edited by earlyrover; Feb 21, 2014 at 01:57 PM.
Three Wheeling
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 66
Likes: 1
Thats why you don't put a new engine in it! haha
Check this link out:
CannibalV8
Even better,
A Crack in My Block?
Check this link out:
CannibalV8
Even better,
A Crack in My Block?
Just putting it out there my Local Rover Indy shop said to stay away from there Engines.
Now they may source there Rover Engines from somewhere else and push people awa from Cannibal V8's but the guys at my shop have always treated me with honesty and fairness.
Just something to think about.
Rock Crawling
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 452
Likes: 26
From: Oregon, north of Salem
[QUOTE=ems12;448453]Just putting it out there my Local Rover Indy shop said to stay away from there Engines.
___________________________
Nice of him to say so, but does he know about the large number of original Rover engines that have well over 100,000 to 200,000 miles on them, and are still running well, regardless of their alleged faults?
I had a Russian/American wrecking yard shop owner tell me the same thing, but when I inquired about why he felt so strongly this way, he went on to tell me about negative experiences he had with the engine in a Freelander. Well, dahhhh!
Now they may source there Rover Engines from somewhere else and push people away from Cannibal V8's but the guys at my shop have always treated me with honesty and fairness.
_____________________________
Some guys do their own work, with assist from local high quality machine shops, aluminum welding specialists, top quality engine rebuilders, etc., and can generally do it at cost savings, comparatively speaking,
while other guys buy engines already built to some degree. It all comes down to money, some can afford it, buy it ready done; have all or most work done for them. Some can afford it, yet enjoy doing the work on their own, to some degree, so they do that. Some can't afford to completely buy out, but have good auto labor skills/abilities, they do most or all of the work on their own---your choice!
___________________________
Nice of him to say so, but does he know about the large number of original Rover engines that have well over 100,000 to 200,000 miles on them, and are still running well, regardless of their alleged faults?
I had a Russian/American wrecking yard shop owner tell me the same thing, but when I inquired about why he felt so strongly this way, he went on to tell me about negative experiences he had with the engine in a Freelander. Well, dahhhh!
Now they may source there Rover Engines from somewhere else and push people away from Cannibal V8's but the guys at my shop have always treated me with honesty and fairness.
_____________________________
Some guys do their own work, with assist from local high quality machine shops, aluminum welding specialists, top quality engine rebuilders, etc., and can generally do it at cost savings, comparatively speaking,
while other guys buy engines already built to some degree. It all comes down to money, some can afford it, buy it ready done; have all or most work done for them. Some can afford it, yet enjoy doing the work on their own, to some degree, so they do that. Some can't afford to completely buy out, but have good auto labor skills/abilities, they do most or all of the work on their own---your choice!
TReK
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,171
Likes: 45
coolant can come out where the valley gasket is sealing between the head and the intake manifold.
A leak at that point is not detected because the flow of coolant is under the valley gasket and into the V and into the oil.
If you pull the intake manifold and replace the valley gasket then you may be better off.
I had this problem on my D1 and I had bad head gaskets too.
You can see that the push rods may look CLEANER at the back of the engine - where the coolant "washes" off the oil.
A leak at that point is not detected because the flow of coolant is under the valley gasket and into the V and into the oil.
If you pull the intake manifold and replace the valley gasket then you may be better off.
I had this problem on my D1 and I had bad head gaskets too.
You can see that the push rods may look CLEANER at the back of the engine - where the coolant "washes" off the oil.
Thread Starter
|
Overlanding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 24
Likes: 1
Before doing anything more extensive, be sure to determine for sure that Timing case gasket is not leaking--jacket to timing case interior. If that proves sound:
You: "It appears that no machining had been done to the heads, but I did not see any obvious damage or warping."
___________________________
Without measuring, a person cannot with naked eye, detect warping that is enough to cause serious problems. Heads should ALWAYS be measured by an auto. machine shop, corner to corner, to determine if warping has taken place; if it has, they NEED to be milled flat again, by machine shop. Otherwise, you are risking installing warped heads (aluminum heads are notorious for warping when overheated), with resulting problems to follow.
You: ". . . . . .With a decent compression test, i would not think significant coolant got past the rings to the oil."
True, it won't, BUT
__________________________
You: "It does not seem likely that a sleeve would leak into the sump and cylinder at the same time."
___________________________
Oh, yes it will. cracks in thin aluminum wall behind liner, will allow coolant from water jacket to leak out of those cracks, and move upward into combustion chamber, and downward too, directly into your oil pan. This isn't to say that this IS your problem; it could certainly be something else.
"These motors are notorious for being excessively porous as a result of the casting process and they develop micro fissures in the casting which can ultimately lead to major cracks. Overheating is incredibly bad for them."
________________________
I don't subscribe to the idea that these aluminum blocks are, or get, porous; I consider such legends as myth, based on having closely examined a good many of them. Considering how thin the water jacket walls are, behind cylinder liners, porosity issues need not be to blame, when, clearly the blame lies with too thin walls behind liners. Proof of this is found when one considers that earlier Buick and early Rover blocks had no issues with cracking behind liners; such cracking issues became paramount only when Rover bored out the blocks for its 4.0/4.6 litre versions (same wall thicknesses behind liners). Additionally, as Rover became aware of such issues, it, at first, following the block casting process, began examining the spacing between cylinder bore holes, and wall thicknesses of water jackets, etc. by hand, ultrasonic scanning them, a process which later was automated. They used blocks with thickest water jacket walls for the 4.6L and the ones with thinner walls for the 4.0 L blocks. Ones that didn't meet thickness requirements, were scrapped. The stress put on the aluminum blocks, in critical areas, such as at base of threaded head bolt holes (which happen to be exactly across from thin water jacket walls where cracking occurs in almost all cases), and stress put on the thin water jacket walls by the pressed in liners, combined with overheating of the engines, is what causes the cracking; not something too often referred to as porosity. Thus, I have found that it is best to avoid using standard Rover stretch head bolts, but using instead, the studs/nuts, which exert less stress at base of threaded bolt holes on blocks, where almost always, the cracking takes place.
If thin walls behind cylinder liners are cracked to any degree, they are not scrap, as most people assume they are. The liners can be removed, and the walls aluminum TIG welded to as new condition, machined down welds to fit in new cylinder liners. Tig welding aluminum heads/blocks is now commonplace; easily done. I have had it done for me, by specialty shops that do only that; with no problems to follow. I myself do Tig welding too, so I understand how well it works.
You: "It appears that no machining had been done to the heads, but I did not see any obvious damage or warping."
___________________________
Without measuring, a person cannot with naked eye, detect warping that is enough to cause serious problems. Heads should ALWAYS be measured by an auto. machine shop, corner to corner, to determine if warping has taken place; if it has, they NEED to be milled flat again, by machine shop. Otherwise, you are risking installing warped heads (aluminum heads are notorious for warping when overheated), with resulting problems to follow.
You: ". . . . . .With a decent compression test, i would not think significant coolant got past the rings to the oil."
True, it won't, BUT
__________________________
You: "It does not seem likely that a sleeve would leak into the sump and cylinder at the same time."
___________________________
Oh, yes it will. cracks in thin aluminum wall behind liner, will allow coolant from water jacket to leak out of those cracks, and move upward into combustion chamber, and downward too, directly into your oil pan. This isn't to say that this IS your problem; it could certainly be something else.
"These motors are notorious for being excessively porous as a result of the casting process and they develop micro fissures in the casting which can ultimately lead to major cracks. Overheating is incredibly bad for them."
________________________
I don't subscribe to the idea that these aluminum blocks are, or get, porous; I consider such legends as myth, based on having closely examined a good many of them. Considering how thin the water jacket walls are, behind cylinder liners, porosity issues need not be to blame, when, clearly the blame lies with too thin walls behind liners. Proof of this is found when one considers that earlier Buick and early Rover blocks had no issues with cracking behind liners; such cracking issues became paramount only when Rover bored out the blocks for its 4.0/4.6 litre versions (same wall thicknesses behind liners). Additionally, as Rover became aware of such issues, it, at first, following the block casting process, began examining the spacing between cylinder bore holes, and wall thicknesses of water jackets, etc. by hand, ultrasonic scanning them, a process which later was automated. They used blocks with thickest water jacket walls for the 4.6L and the ones with thinner walls for the 4.0 L blocks. Ones that didn't meet thickness requirements, were scrapped. The stress put on the aluminum blocks, in critical areas, such as at base of threaded head bolt holes (which happen to be exactly across from thin water jacket walls where cracking occurs in almost all cases), and stress put on the thin water jacket walls by the pressed in liners, combined with overheating of the engines, is what causes the cracking; not something too often referred to as porosity. Thus, I have found that it is best to avoid using standard Rover stretch head bolts, but using instead, the studs/nuts, which exert less stress at base of threaded bolt holes on blocks, where almost always, the cracking takes place.
If thin walls behind cylinder liners are cracked to any degree, they are not scrap, as most people assume they are. The liners can be removed, and the walls aluminum TIG welded to as new condition, machined down welds to fit in new cylinder liners. Tig welding aluminum heads/blocks is now commonplace; easily done. I have had it done for me, by specialty shops that do only that; with no problems to follow. I myself do Tig welding too, so I understand how well it works.
As far as the heads go, I agree they need to go to a machine shop before being put back on. However, assuming they are warped, could it give my symptoms? I had no external leak and good compression. I do not see a way for a warped head to get the water in the oil. I could maybe see water into exhaust. Could I have had an "external leak" but into the valley under the gasket where I could not see it? I am new to this so I could easily be missing something.
Thread Starter
|
Overlanding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 24
Likes: 1
coolant can come out where the valley gasket is sealing between the head and the intake manifold.
A leak at that point is not detected because the flow of coolant is under the valley gasket and into the V and into the oil.
If you pull the intake manifold and replace the valley gasket then you may be better off.
I had this problem on my D1 and I had bad head gaskets too.
You can see that the push rods may look CLEANER at the back of the engine - where the coolant "washes" off the oil.
A leak at that point is not detected because the flow of coolant is under the valley gasket and into the V and into the oil.
If you pull the intake manifold and replace the valley gasket then you may be better off.
I had this problem on my D1 and I had bad head gaskets too.
You can see that the push rods may look CLEANER at the back of the engine - where the coolant "washes" off the oil.
.I did see some evidence of leaking at the ports between the head and the manifold. However, the leaking appeared to be external and to the top of the interface between the head and the lower intake manifold. I could see water stains and some rusting, but the portion of the gasket that sealed off the valley (the gasket portion below the water jacket and intake passages) appeared to be in decent shape and did not appear to be leaking. I will try to figure out how to post pics and see if you and others agree with my assessment of that possibility.
Rock Crawling
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 452
Likes: 26
From: Oregon, north of Salem
" Do you know an approximate cost to have a sleeve removed, welded, and replaced?" Varies, depending on state, machine shop rates, etc. Some like to machine out the existing cylinder sleeve(s), precision boring, while others like to heat block to specific temperature, and force them out, from bottom to top, from access "openings" at bottom of each liner, inside where oil pan/crankshaft is.
"assuming (heads) they are warped, could it give my symptoms?" Considering amount of water in oil, so quickly, I doubt it. Like your thinking, and your assessment of the situation. You seem to be a "thinker," so don't give up that trait. After all, you really need to determine why your problem is happening, and do what is needed to take serious steps to see that it doesn't happen again."
". . . .looking at the position of the water jackets, valley and all the directions the gasket could fail I would have to be very, very unlucky if that is what happened. Unfortunately, I definitely can not rule that out that possibility."
I agree with your assessment, 100% percent.
To possibly help in assessing what is the cause of your problem, it would help a lot if one knew how long it took for X amount of coolant to get in oil pan, starting with a pan with no, or very little coolant in pan. If coolant rushed in pretty fast, that would make it more likely that a serious leak is happening at timing cover gasket source, where gasket seals the water jacket there. If coolant got in oil pan less quickly, and especially after engine was heated up, but even more so if engine were overheated, that would indicate its getting in oil pan AND, at same time, in one or more combustion chambers, from crack behind one or more liners. Since coolant got in combustion chamber(s) and in 0il pan too, that makes it more likely that crack(s) behind liner(s) are the cause; if engine was seriously overheated prior to this problem happening, that would also increase likelihood of cracked block behind liner(s), rather than leaking timing cover gasket. If I were you, I would try to assess what scenario, from above, seems more likely, and do necessary testing for that particular educated guess, to isolate and identify for sure, the problem, so you can do what is needed to repair problem. I never did find pictures to be too worthy, in trying to assess problems such as this, because there is nothing like seeing the real thing. Pictures are just too hard to evaluate cause of problem, unless they show obvious signs of problem.
"assuming (heads) they are warped, could it give my symptoms?" Considering amount of water in oil, so quickly, I doubt it. Like your thinking, and your assessment of the situation. You seem to be a "thinker," so don't give up that trait. After all, you really need to determine why your problem is happening, and do what is needed to take serious steps to see that it doesn't happen again."
". . . .looking at the position of the water jackets, valley and all the directions the gasket could fail I would have to be very, very unlucky if that is what happened. Unfortunately, I definitely can not rule that out that possibility."
I agree with your assessment, 100% percent.
To possibly help in assessing what is the cause of your problem, it would help a lot if one knew how long it took for X amount of coolant to get in oil pan, starting with a pan with no, or very little coolant in pan. If coolant rushed in pretty fast, that would make it more likely that a serious leak is happening at timing cover gasket source, where gasket seals the water jacket there. If coolant got in oil pan less quickly, and especially after engine was heated up, but even more so if engine were overheated, that would indicate its getting in oil pan AND, at same time, in one or more combustion chambers, from crack behind one or more liners. Since coolant got in combustion chamber(s) and in 0il pan too, that makes it more likely that crack(s) behind liner(s) are the cause; if engine was seriously overheated prior to this problem happening, that would also increase likelihood of cracked block behind liner(s), rather than leaking timing cover gasket. If I were you, I would try to assess what scenario, from above, seems more likely, and do necessary testing for that particular educated guess, to isolate and identify for sure, the problem, so you can do what is needed to repair problem. I never did find pictures to be too worthy, in trying to assess problems such as this, because there is nothing like seeing the real thing. Pictures are just too hard to evaluate cause of problem, unless they show obvious signs of problem.
Thread Starter
|
Overlanding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 24
Likes: 1
I figured out the bad news. Block crack behind at least sleeves on Cylinders 3 and 5. The leak must be a lot worse when it overheats. I could not find anything local to test block. I ended up fabricating some plates to test the block. I figure I will start a new thread about how I tested. I will post a link here in case any of you are interested. I was surprised how little the leak shows. It is no wonder that I had decent compression. I ran the block up to 50 psi and it probably took 1/2 hour for a few drops to be visible around the top side of the sleeve. I had pulled the pan and didn't see any leaking below the sleeve at #3 or any of the other cylinders. Its possible that there are other problems. In looking at the parts I also realized a cracked head could leak directly under the valley gasket. I may modify a couple of my plates and pressure test the heads while I am figuring out what I am going to do to repair the truck.
