The block hasent changed only the attention to detail (quaility control)

 

Hi everyone,
I am new to this board. I just bought a 1998 4.6 HSE for $2k with 104K miles got a great deal I thought. I was told it had a bad radiator. The heater core was previously bypassed, I filled it up with coolant and made sure there were no air locks. I cut the top radiator hose in half installed a hose connector with a bleeder screw in it. Low and behold when driven just a couple of miles I get severe coolant overflow from the cap. Researching, everyone says most of the people say I need a new block. ( But it runs beautifully otherwise) I have been researching the internet and stumbled upon your site. Great site by the way!

Would my hypothesis (humor me please, in no way do I know alot about these engines, grew up wrenching in my dads motorcycle shop for 15 years though) sound possible?

My rover seems to have overheated from the loss of coolant (probably heater core o rings). The previous owner took it to a repair shop where they diagnosed air in the cooling system. (I saw the old receipt in the manual booklet) They bled the system for $80 and then the car was sold to me being told it had a bad radiator. I checked the radiator, its perfect, changed the thermostat, and all the hoses, perfect. But I still get this severe coolant overflow.

I noticed when my engine is cold it sounds very smooth. When it heats up after 5 min I get this ticking which sounds like a bad lifter or (maybe a slipped liner knocking up and down?). After a long idling session I get the coolant gushing and temperature rise.

Please give me your opinions on my ideas for a possible fix:

1. Do a pressure test to find out which liner is really loose. I saw this in youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4odA...eature=related

Find out which liners are actually slipping. Mark the position of the bad liners with respect to their bore. Check for liners leaking or liners lower than the edge of the block. The ones lower than the edge will surely have problems later and should be reseated in my opinion.

2. Instead of machining liners and installing top-hat liners, remove the liner, piston/rod from the block carefully, by heating the block with with heaters, heat, boiling water etc (I am not sure on this have not tried). Then while the engine is hot.

Insert a block of ice, shaped to fit into the bore, (freeze it in a can or plastic bottle about the diameter of the bore) allowing the iron to shrink while the aluminum outer block to expand. (Sorry about my run-ons).

Of course, the carbon on top of the sleeve needs to be cleaned etc. Hopefully this would ease the removal of the liner?

Forgive me thinking out loudly.

3. After the sleeve is removed, clean the block/liner mating surface as well as we can, and then we can seal the lower and upper exterior portions of the liner with loctite 572; I got this idea from this link:

http://www.espritfactfile.com/TSB.html
(look at the bottom of the page)


"Cylinder Liner Adhesive
The sealant used between the base of the cylinder liners and the block (formerly Hylomar) has been changed to Loctite 572 adhesive sealant (A912E7030V) in order to: reduce fretting and noise; improve sealing durability; reduce the risk of liner disturbance with the cylinder head removed. The use of Loctite 572 has been Introduced together with the new block and head castings, but may be used on all Lotus 900 series engines. Loctite 572 Application Procedure:

• Thoroughly clean the liner spigot and seat, and the corresponding areas in the block.
• Dry fit the liners and check that there is a nominal clearance between the top end of the liners: Check the standout of the liners above the block deck face (liner "nip') which is unchanged at:
  • 0.03 mm to + 0.05 mm (- 0.001 to + 0.002 in);
  • max. variation between adjacent liners: 0.03 mm (0.001 in).
• Apply a small bead of Loctite around the seating face of the liner.
• Apply a thin smear of Loctite around the outside of the liner spigot.
• Apply a thin smear of Loctite around the top edge of the liner spigot bore in the block.
• Slide the liners into the block and fit the cylinder head within 4 hours to ensure that the liners are seated correctly before the adhesive cures.

4. After the adhesive is applied to the liner, insert the liner in the exact same position of the block, (previously marked before removal) making sure the liner protrudes slightly above the block, and not below the edge.

5. After all of the loose liners are glued and dried to their proper position, run a good wide true file over the block to even out all of the liners. There will be a good seal between the liner and block with the loctite after it cures.

6. To prevent liners from being forced loose by over heating again, (overheated engine causes piston to be too tight in bore and the liner to become loose, destroying the lower notch that keeps the liner up -imo):

Install Pins, or metal dowels or other safe means of keeping the other sleeves from falling. (If we sealed each sleeve, then we would not need to do this procedure, but most of us probably will only repair the truly damaged ones.) The pins can be drilled and tapped and sealed carefully from underneath the liner preventing the liner from being forced down by a superheated/overexpanded piston, if there is an issue of overheating in the future. It is possible that if the screw does not protrude to the exterior of the block, we only need to drill and install self tapping short screws with a rough pitch. Tapping might be a little tough down there.)

Make sure this does not weaken the block in areas needing strength. Make sure this pin is secure and does not come into contact with the piston at any point or any other moving part. But make sure the pin is directly preventing the liner to slip.

7. Clean the block and head. If you want to keep this truck for a while go ahead and do a valve lapping, new seals, remove carbon, and install new studs and new gaskets and torque properly. If you have not changed your thermostat and water pump, please do so at this time and also install a new coolant cap and cut the top hose in half at the high point and install a coupling or some means of bleeding the air out. Saves so much head ache.

8. I really like my RR 98HSE (don't see any on the road LOL). I love the air suspension; and I love the performance and looks. I hope this works well and should only cost me the price of some oil, loctite, gaskets and o rings, drill bits, taps, busted knuckles and some days working on my car. (estimated cost $250-$350?)

I think even if the block is cracked or porous behind the liner, we won't have any problems because the combustion gases cannot enter the side of the liner because it is sealed with loctite.

Again this is going to be my trial and error. If I cannot fix it, I have to junk it. Please forum members, if you see any details where I might have problems, please comment so I can be prepared.

Also can you please recommend the best head gasket kit with valve seals and where I can buy it at a good price.

Thankyou!!!

Scott

 

It seems the improved blocks being sold have not changed to top hat liners. Only attention to quality control. I think this is bs. If the engine over heats again, the block will be expanded causing the liner to be loose, and the piston will superheat creating a supertight piston to liner fitment possibly cause a slight seizure, that is why if it overheats too long you can't crank it, the piston to bore will be too tight. The momentum of the crank is strong enough to break off the little tabs that hold the liner up. imo of course.

 

I have a horror story of my slipped sleeve. Yes, they do slip!

 

I thought this was covered a couple other places, but one of the guys (IIRC it was 'TurboDave'?) over on D-web tried a little experiment that definitely illustrates the fact that these liners can move around quite a bit.

‪Discovery / Rover V8 Loose liner at 85DegC‬‏ - YouTube

D-web appears to be down at the moment (again), but it looks like the URL for thread over there is: http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74254.

If you check out his other videos, he has another where the block has cooled to 71 C and he can still move the sleeves and even get them inserted 3/4 of the way.

 

Lets hear it... What size engine?

 

Someone mentioned the Vin# range for bad engines in the DII,what would the range be or where can I find the info?

 

this link is from RPI the company which was hired to help with a redesign on new block, before LR went to the BMW engine. If you dont have your mind made up that the liner just fall out for no reason, it's a good read. If feel that "tophat/flanged" liners in a bad block is the end all cure they address that also.

New Cos-cast Short engines now available & offered here!!
(New current production 4.0 Litre Rover V8 engine, now cast by Cos-cast ------ It does not get better than this!!!!)

Limited Edition New Cos-cast 4.0 Short Engine. The ultimate long term engine replacement, beware of false claims from top hat linered engine, these are from the new cos-cast moulds.


This Listing is for:

The very latest Cos-cast Rover V8 Engines! One Brand New block Completely recast to modern exacting, blueprint standards, a 4.0 litre Short engine (4.6 litre also available).
(Full engine block, crankshaft, big-end & main bearings, connecting rods, pistons, including rings, core plugs, all factory assembled.)

So the world renowned Rover V8 is now using a Cos-cast block?

Yes, due to the regular 'block cracking' problem in the 94mm Rover V8 engines, because of poor tolerances within the tired tooling and castings themselves. Cos-cast have been drafted in to take care of this problem. Not only are they now cast to much more exacting standards, using brand new tooling and casting techniques, thus allowing for much more reliable tuning, and also a much nicer finish to the engine block as a whole.
The external measurements of the Coscast blocks are identical to the earlier engines.
Claimed power outputs from these standard (unmodified) engines. we can offer much more power too please enquire.

• 4.0 (Sagem EFi set up)- 190bhp 236lb/ft
• 4.0 (Bosch EFi set up)- 183bhp 251lb/ft
• 4.6 (Sagem EFi set up)- 225bhp 280lb/ft
• 4.6 (Bosch EFi set up)- 215bhp 294lb/ft

We can of course, and do, make substantial improvements on these figures, with many of the performance and efficiency upgrades we are able to offer. So these engines can effectively and reliably be used in anything from your Classic, Land Rover to your Rally/Race car.


Our lowest prices are in our eBay listings.

Yet another great opportunity to bid on a new 4.0Lt V8 engine from our sustainable new engine stock's. This engine is a factory brand new (2008 build) and is a 4.6 Litre 9.35 - 1 compression long engine, therefore suitable for almost all possible V8 Rover applications. (We can also modify specifications upon purchase to suit all / any other individual requirements.
I have a cracked block, can i not just have it repaired?

Well the bottom line is, you cant effectively repair your cracked block. You may of heard of Top Hat Liners, this is a short term solution only, and offers little or no guarantee of long term reliability. Also , it is not uncommon for the cost of having your engine 'repaired' to be the equivalent of buying a trouble free, Brand new reliable engine.
Will it fit my car?

The Brand-New 'cross bolted' 4.0 Rover V8 short engine, suitable as a direct replacement for all existing GEM's or Thor engine setups this includes P38 Range Rovers, Morgan 4.0 Litre, Defender 90 50th, NAS spec Discoveries 4.0, Discovery Series II 4.0 Litre..

This engine will also fit the following vehicles with a different camshaft fitted to drive a distributor. You will also need a fitting kit (Please enquire). V8 Land Rover, Range Rover Classic, Morgan, MG, Tvr, SDi P6, P5, Etc. It is also an excellent choice for all Retro and Kit car needs, not to mention many other possible applications & is fully assembled.
No surcharges, No delivery or collection charges either.

These Short engines are not strictly exchange, but if you have no use for you old take out one, we can always arrange collection included in the small delivery charge of £50.00 (UK only) .

We can also supply all other parts and variants, plus our 25 years experience, to compliment & complete the installation. Please take a look at our other auctions to see more components you may require, e.g. cam kits, gaskets and fitting kits.

Even though I can upgrade to a new 4.0 or 4.6 I may prefer a rebuilt 3.5 or 3.9 Engine.

We struggle to keep up with demand for our professionally reconditioned (rebuilt) V8 earlier engines due to core material problem, especially with the 3.9/4.2 and for the moment, also we can no longer provide an ongoing stream of 3.9/4.2 rebuilt engines as the blocks are giving age related problems with liners coming loose and coolant leakage behind the liners. These problems only become apparent when we test them under pressure, 'Hot' as we always do prior to rebuilding. We can of course still offer immediately the new Cos-cast 4.0 and 4.6 brand new engines either at short engine level as listed here or as full engines offered in our other listings, and all are completely compatible with earlier V8's as far back as 1996 (and earlier with small modifications). 'Cos-castings', Built September 2007.

Rebuilt engines are available, from £1850.00 but 3.5 only. We may again be able to offer 3.9 soon (see our listings) but for every five 3.9 (94mm) blocks we have tested, only one or maybe 2 may pass the 'heated pressure test'. Whats worse the cost of testing them all to find the odd one or two is adding heavily to the price, thus 3.9/4.2 rebuilt engines may soon cost much more than the equivalent 3.5 at the same specification and perhaps more than a new 4.0or 4.6 engine.

Engines V8 is what we do with the best ancillaries available for us and for you !!.
Why?.... It's easy Cus we figure that what's good for our customers is also good for you too.
Please e-mail us if you have any further questions.

Pictures

• Here you can see the new Coscast 4.0 Short Engine, detailed in this listing.
• The second image shows a close up of the Coscast 4.0 Short Engine.

• This second image shows a close up of the Coscast 4.6 Short Engine.

Convinced Top hat linered is the way forward..?



Important Advice

Take a look at the quality of this all new cos-cast engine casting especially in the tappet area, then take a look at the one you have, and you will see on all earlier (pre-coscast) engine the tappet holes are machined not only very badly with sharp machining flash but more importantly completely off-centre, The side of the engine on its inner valley surfaces will have deep machining marks on one side only where the boring of tappet holes interfered with the engine poor casting on one side,

Its no wonder then with only 10 mm space between adjacent cylinders further containing a 4mm wide water jacket in this limited space its no wonder the older casting suffer cracking especially when considering a 2mm casting error is inherent in them all. meaning in many cases the water Jacket can be less than 1mm away from the cylinder liner.

This is why the original engines are not reconditionable even if you do use 'top hat liners' cos because the coolant, if it cant come out the top as is the case with all, will come out the bottom later and end up in your sump.

This is also not a cure for loose liners either because the steel liner is designed to expand under high temperature within the aluminum block and its with extreme engine temperature that the top hat effect of such replacement liners will often become detached, ductile or otherwise.

Dont then be fooled, if such a simple fix was appropriate Rover themselves would have used it themselves and saved a fortune from the cost of paying for new Casted blocks on an already redundant production engine.

Please Note - These pictures below are to demonstrate and explain and are NOT included in this listing. See above for what this listing is for









The below image shows the casting issue with the earlier Rover Cast engine blocks, note the positioning of one of the water jackets is only in places less than 1.74mm from the cylinder liner (The Liner is not shown here). This is why top hat Liners could never be the correct solution and the cost cast new engine castings we offer cost less too. (Ever wondered why Rover themselves never offered a Top Hat linered replacement engines and why they spent a small fortune on making new engine casting dies and new engines.

Well now you can see why.


FAQ Zone

• Is it possible to Visit Rpi. for collection, further information or for parts to be fitted.
  For sure we have many customers from all over the world, that not only visit us but enjoy our unique hospitality, as well as our in-house workshop facilities that can cater for anything from major rebuilds, restorations, engine fittings, LPG conversions. As well as drop in chipping and ignition system upgrades. Holly our Engine builder (Head Chef maybe) can always find the time to show you around the world of V8 Rover engines and explain all variants and upgrades.
• Is Your location in 'North Norfolk', a great place to visit!
  No matter where you are located in the world a visit to us and our area, whether for the day, a week or even for a weekend in itself can be very, very rewarding, We can happily offer you information and assistance for accommodation ranging from our favourite traditional eighteenth century Norfolk country house Hotel, the Norfolk Mead, http://www.norfolkmead.co.uk or Modern Hotels, Norwich central Hotels or from a chosen range of local bed and breakfast (B&B) establishments.
  We can also supply information links to ferry and airports to help, what's more as I have a deep regard for all things local to Norfolk you can find a wealth of local scenic information here, http://www.scenicnorfolk.co.uk this is a unique local web site with some content supplied by myself.
• Whats more, Now with online 'You-Tube'. videos too.
  To help give you the real feel of all we can offer, what we can achieve and the standards we aspire too we now have a space on 'You-Tube' for your enlightenment. (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=RPIEngineering) to afford you a unique, real time snapshot of what you can expect from us. What's more, to see, feel and genuinely experience the passion we have for what we do and what we can do for your V8.

 

Interesting reading, but you mention a link? Can you repost it? I'd be interested to see what kind of pricing they're offering for a new block versus what a rebuilt block from someplace like Turner would cost...

 

"RPi Engineering - Specialised Rover Engines"

here is an ebay short cut Coscast Short Engine Block Land Rover Gems Thor V8 4.0 - eBay (item 150633952997 end time Jul-28-11 02:08:57 PDT)