Engine swap parts list
#11
07-10-2017, 06:42 PM
I highly doubt that one plant changed their manufacturing specs for two different vehicles that would otherwise receive identical engines. that would be the first instance of this phenomena ive ever heard of from any manufacturer.
Blocks from different plants and slightly varied design are a different story. like windsor and detroit Ford Modular engines.
again, why not spend very similar money on more displacement, a superior cam grind, professionally machining and assembly from top to bottom, and a warranty.
you will only save money with the 4.0 AND end up with a solid engine if you ONLY pay for machine work and do all of the measuring and assembly yourself.
And i dont just mean having liners installed. I mean full machine workup including checking for cracks, checking bore round, line honing the mains, checking and machining/polishing the crank, same with the rods...the list goes on.
Blocks from different plants and slightly varied design are a different story. like windsor and detroit Ford Modular engines.
again, why not spend very similar money on more displacement, a superior cam grind, professionally machining and assembly from top to bottom, and a warranty.
you will only save money with the 4.0 AND end up with a solid engine if you ONLY pay for machine work and do all of the measuring and assembly yourself.
And i dont just mean having liners installed. I mean full machine workup including checking for cracks, checking bore round, line honing the mains, checking and machining/polishing the crank, same with the rods...the list goes on.
I very much appreciate all the great advice you guys are sharing with me this said... Money is tight right now given having moved from a different city, a new job, bought a second house, got engaged and getting married in September. Its been a crazy year to say the least. If money was no object I would be looking to get a 5.3 swap with trailhead or simply be ordering a new short block from ab, turner or cannibal. But right now this truck is just a fun toy to drive from time to time, go to club events and enjoy pride in ownership. I don't rely on this car for daily driving. This said I am willing to spend some money to "freshen up" my spare 4.0 to get a few years of infrequent driving here and there. I will most likely set aside my 4.6 and look to do a full rebuild on it as a project in the future.
On a side note... All my ancillary accessories or systems are in top running shape. i.e cooling system, sensors, ignition, even main ecu harness was replaced two years ago$$$$. My 4.6 got full head jobs at a professional machine shop when he previous owner did the rebuild. I have the receipts for $400 of machine shop work per head. Not sure what they did but I am thinking these should go on my 4.0 when I do the swap?
#12
07-10-2017, 07:06 PM
None of what you list above will solve your noise issue. I'm not sure what you mean by "swap an engine in" if you are thinking of pulling your current motor and replacing with another used motor or if you are saying that you want to rebuild your current motor.
However, if I heard a thumping coming from my motor, I'd go onto eBay and pay the $30 for new standard sized rod bearings and then follow this fantastic pictorial thread for rolling in new rod bearings from underneath my Discovery: https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...rite-up-48197/
OK, to do the above you will also need to buy a new oil sump gasket.
Your Discovery has 3 sets of bearings in the motor. Rod bearings, main bearings, and cam bearings.
Worn rod bearings are common on Discovery motors. You can unbolt your oil sump and see them from underneath your vehicle by simply looking up after the oil has finished dripping off.
You've got 8 rods, one for each cylinder in your V8. Each rod has a cap with two bolts on it. With the oil sump drain pan off, you unbolt one rod cap from the crankshaft to reveal the lower rod bearing. Its upper half of the bearing is just sitting on top of the crank where you can gently push it off.
Spray the area with brake cleaner. Dry. Gently rub an emory cloth around the exposed crank area and cap. Respray with brake cleaner. Dry. Rub fresh 15W40 on your upper and lower rod bearing halves. Gently roll the top half up onto the exposed crank area. Set the lower half into your rod cap and gently screw back in the cap onto your crank, then torque appropriately (maybe 15 ft lbs??).
Repeat 7 more times for your other cylinders (rods). Now you've got new rod bearings in your V8.
Frankly, that's probably as much as I would personally do because the above is just a guess at your problem/solution. If you were motivated, you *could* also do the same procedure (without oiling the new mains) for your main bearings. Heck, if you were oustandingly motivated you could press in new camshaft bearings. But I wouldn't do those 2 things at your stage (really, to do the main bearings you would need to pull off your front timing chain oil pump cover, too).
I'd just put a nice bead of RTV around your new oil sump gasket, align it onto your oil sump drain pan, and bolt that bad boy back up onto your motor after just doing the rod bearings (the most likely parts to be worn out on a Discovery's V8).
Refill your V8 with 6.9 quarts of 15W40 and start her up.
So by doing the above for the price of new rod bearings and a new oil drain pan gasket you've got a shot at fixing your problem.
Oh, if you really do have a slipped cylinder sleeve then the above is a pure waste, sorry!
But...if your noise is really a rod knock then your new rod bearings have a strong chance of fixing your problem.
The above is a poor man's engine rebuild, and it is fast and easy. Your V8 stays in your Discovery. You don't disconnect a lot of things. You just drain and drop your oil pan, then roll in new rod bearings.
Rest assured that your old rod bearings *do* need replacing no matter what. Even so, they can only fix a rod knock (and that's not even 100% this way).
I'd guess that spending $100 total for oil, gasket, and rod bearings per the above will give you about a 60% chance of fixing your motor for maybe another 70,000 miles.
Anyway, that's a lot easier and cheaper than swapping in a new or used motor (which might knock as soon as you start *it* up, anyway!).
However, if I heard a thumping coming from my motor, I'd go onto eBay and pay the $30 for new standard sized rod bearings and then follow this fantastic pictorial thread for rolling in new rod bearings from underneath my Discovery: https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...rite-up-48197/
OK, to do the above you will also need to buy a new oil sump gasket.
Your Discovery has 3 sets of bearings in the motor. Rod bearings, main bearings, and cam bearings.
Worn rod bearings are common on Discovery motors. You can unbolt your oil sump and see them from underneath your vehicle by simply looking up after the oil has finished dripping off.
You've got 8 rods, one for each cylinder in your V8. Each rod has a cap with two bolts on it. With the oil sump drain pan off, you unbolt one rod cap from the crankshaft to reveal the lower rod bearing. Its upper half of the bearing is just sitting on top of the crank where you can gently push it off.
Spray the area with brake cleaner. Dry. Gently rub an emory cloth around the exposed crank area and cap. Respray with brake cleaner. Dry. Rub fresh 15W40 on your upper and lower rod bearing halves. Gently roll the top half up onto the exposed crank area. Set the lower half into your rod cap and gently screw back in the cap onto your crank, then torque appropriately (maybe 15 ft lbs??).
Repeat 7 more times for your other cylinders (rods). Now you've got new rod bearings in your V8.
Frankly, that's probably as much as I would personally do because the above is just a guess at your problem/solution. If you were motivated, you *could* also do the same procedure (without oiling the new mains) for your main bearings. Heck, if you were oustandingly motivated you could press in new camshaft bearings. But I wouldn't do those 2 things at your stage (really, to do the main bearings you would need to pull off your front timing chain oil pump cover, too).
I'd just put a nice bead of RTV around your new oil sump gasket, align it onto your oil sump drain pan, and bolt that bad boy back up onto your motor after just doing the rod bearings (the most likely parts to be worn out on a Discovery's V8).
Refill your V8 with 6.9 quarts of 15W40 and start her up.
So by doing the above for the price of new rod bearings and a new oil drain pan gasket you've got a shot at fixing your problem.
Oh, if you really do have a slipped cylinder sleeve then the above is a pure waste, sorry!
But...if your noise is really a rod knock then your new rod bearings have a strong chance of fixing your problem.
The above is a poor man's engine rebuild, and it is fast and easy. Your V8 stays in your Discovery. You don't disconnect a lot of things. You just drain and drop your oil pan, then roll in new rod bearings.
Rest assured that your old rod bearings *do* need replacing no matter what. Even so, they can only fix a rod knock (and that's not even 100% this way).
I'd guess that spending $100 total for oil, gasket, and rod bearings per the above will give you about a 60% chance of fixing your motor for maybe another 70,000 miles.
Anyway, that's a lot easier and cheaper than swapping in a new or used motor (which might knock as soon as you start *it* up, anyway!).
So if I'm going to "freshen up" my 4.0 with 100,000 miles should I go ahead and replace the rod bearings as cheap insurance? Do I need to replace the bolts that hold the end caps in place? Standard size should be ok? Any point in doing the mains while I am at it?
#13
07-10-2017, 07:28 PM
Recovery Vehicle
No, don't replace the caps or the bolts on the caps.
Obviously the more that you replace, the better chances your motor has, but...you could go nuts spending $$$$ on lots of parts that have very low percentage chances of ever, ever, ever breaking...or if they do break, don't really matter.
For instance, the oil pump gears are $75 for the parts to replace, but if they break (and they do) then those metal bits have to go *somewhere* and that "somewhere" could be problematic for you...
...but if your timing chain breaks...no big deal because the Discovery motors aren't "interference" motors. Different story for timing belts or timing chains on interference motors.
It's always a trade-off of what to replace vs chances of xyz failing, etc.
If I was in your shoes, I'd unscrew the coolant cap to sniff for exhaust gasses (very obvious). If you detect 2 things:
#1: exhaust gasses in coolant reservoir, and
#2: a knock/tick/thumping from your motor ONLY WHEN WARM, then I'd swap motors because you have the 4.0 handy and those 2 tests suggest a slipped cylinder sleeve.
Ignore the rest of this post if you DO have the slipped sleeve detected above.
====================
But...if I didn't see those 2 things above then I'd stick with the 4.6 that you have. I'd leave it in your Discovery. I'd drop the oil pan and I'd clean your oil pickup tube (2 screws to remove it I think) and I'd replace only your rod bearings. Then I'd bolt it all back up, fill her back up with 15W40, and start her up.
I'd say that just replacing those rod bearings and cleaning your oil pickup tube would have a realistic (not guaranteed of course) chance of fixing your 4.6 motor for potentially another 70,000 miles of hard driving.
That's it! I wouldn't do *anything* else but those tests and fixes.
You'll be out $38 for the rod bearings, $14 for the oil sump gasket, and 7 quarts of new 15W40 oil ($30 for STP at AutoZone).
$82. Plus your labor to drop your oil pan and unbolt 8 rod caps from underneath your Discovery.
This is a cheap, easy, 1 day shot at solving your problems.
There are more tests that you can do. There are more bearings that you could replace. I wouldn't "go there" though until after doing the above, even if it means having to drop the oil pan a 2nd time later if it turns out that you need to replace the main crankshaft bearings or cam bearings (i.e. if the new rod bearings didn't solve your issue).
But that is just my opinion. I'm no expert. I'm also not you and don't know what is really best for you. It's not going to hurt my feelings if you proceed differently from how I'd do things...I'm just offering a cheap, easy way which may not be for everyone.
#14
07-10-2017, 08:02 PM
Yes, replace the $38 rod bearings with the eBay parts.
No, don't replace the caps or the bolts on the caps.
Obviously the more that you replace, the better chances your motor has, but...you could go nuts spending $$$$ on lots of parts that have very low percentage chances of ever, ever, ever breaking...or if they do break, don't really matter.
For instance, the oil pump gears are $75 for the parts to replace, but if they break (and they do) then those metal bits have to go *somewhere* and that "somewhere" could be problematic for you...
...but if your timing chain breaks...no big deal because the Discovery motors aren't "interference" motors. Different story for timing belts or timing chains on interference motors.
It's always a trade-off of what to replace vs chances of xyz failing, etc.
If I was in your shoes, I'd unscrew the coolant cap to sniff for exhaust gasses (very obvious). If you detect 2 things:
#1: exhaust gasses in coolant reservoir, and
#2: a knock/tick/thumping from your motor ONLY WHEN WARM, then I'd swap motors because you have the 4.0 handy and those 2 tests suggest a slipped cylinder sleeve.
Ignore the rest of this post if you DO have the slipped sleeve detected above.
====================
But...if I didn't see those 2 things above then I'd stick with the 4.6 that you have. I'd leave it in your Discovery. I'd drop the oil pan and I'd clean your oil pickup tube (2 screws to remove it I think) and I'd replace only your rod bearings. Then I'd bolt it all back up, fill her back up with 15W40, and start her up.
I'd say that just replacing those rod bearings and cleaning your oil pickup tube would have a realistic (not guaranteed of course) chance of fixing your 4.6 motor for potentially another 70,000 miles of hard driving.
That's it! I wouldn't do *anything* else but those tests and fixes.
You'll be out $38 for the rod bearings, $14 for the oil sump gasket, and 7 quarts of new 15W40 oil ($30 for STP at AutoZone).
$82. Plus your labor to drop your oil pan and unbolt 8 rod caps from underneath your Discovery.
This is a cheap, easy, 1 day shot at solving your problems.
There are more tests that you can do. There are more bearings that you could replace. I wouldn't "go there" though until after doing the above, even if it means having to drop the oil pan a 2nd time later if it turns out that you need to replace the main crankshaft bearings or cam bearings (i.e. if the new rod bearings didn't solve your issue).
But that is just my opinion. I'm no expert. I'm also not you and don't know what is really best for you. It's not going to hurt my feelings if you proceed differently from how I'd do things...I'm just offering a cheap, easy way which may not be for everyone.
No, don't replace the caps or the bolts on the caps.
Obviously the more that you replace, the better chances your motor has, but...you could go nuts spending $$$$ on lots of parts that have very low percentage chances of ever, ever, ever breaking...or if they do break, don't really matter.
For instance, the oil pump gears are $75 for the parts to replace, but if they break (and they do) then those metal bits have to go *somewhere* and that "somewhere" could be problematic for you...
...but if your timing chain breaks...no big deal because the Discovery motors aren't "interference" motors. Different story for timing belts or timing chains on interference motors.
It's always a trade-off of what to replace vs chances of xyz failing, etc.
If I was in your shoes, I'd unscrew the coolant cap to sniff for exhaust gasses (very obvious). If you detect 2 things:
#1: exhaust gasses in coolant reservoir, and
#2: a knock/tick/thumping from your motor ONLY WHEN WARM, then I'd swap motors because you have the 4.0 handy and those 2 tests suggest a slipped cylinder sleeve.
Ignore the rest of this post if you DO have the slipped sleeve detected above.
====================
But...if I didn't see those 2 things above then I'd stick with the 4.6 that you have. I'd leave it in your Discovery. I'd drop the oil pan and I'd clean your oil pickup tube (2 screws to remove it I think) and I'd replace only your rod bearings. Then I'd bolt it all back up, fill her back up with 15W40, and start her up.
I'd say that just replacing those rod bearings and cleaning your oil pickup tube would have a realistic (not guaranteed of course) chance of fixing your 4.6 motor for potentially another 70,000 miles of hard driving.
That's it! I wouldn't do *anything* else but those tests and fixes.
You'll be out $38 for the rod bearings, $14 for the oil sump gasket, and 7 quarts of new 15W40 oil ($30 for STP at AutoZone).
$82. Plus your labor to drop your oil pan and unbolt 8 rod caps from underneath your Discovery.
This is a cheap, easy, 1 day shot at solving your problems.
There are more tests that you can do. There are more bearings that you could replace. I wouldn't "go there" though until after doing the above, even if it means having to drop the oil pan a 2nd time later if it turns out that you need to replace the main crankshaft bearings or cam bearings (i.e. if the new rod bearings didn't solve your issue).
But that is just my opinion. I'm no expert. I'm also not you and don't know what is really best for you. It's not going to hurt my feelings if you proceed differently from how I'd do things...I'm just offering a cheap, easy way which may not be for everyone.
Very tempting... What are the odds that my bearings went bad in 30,000 miles since the rebuild? I mean the guy was an idiot who assembled it so nothing would surprise me... But lets not forget there is a lot of top end noise also. None of which existed prior to my miss firing issue. I was literally driving down the road and the engine was running a little rough at one intersection while at a stop. Resumed driving and I get misfire codes, light is flashing engine is banging. Changed plugs, wires and coils... no more miss fires but engine is still banging.
Assuming liners are still in place... Maybe the tappets are also in need of replacing? what are the odds of all this happening at the same time of a misfire. I literally pulled over, shut the engine down and called a tow truck, drove it onto the truck, and off and into my garage. Noise isn't any different weather the engine is hot or cold.
I will go home:
-Sniff the coolant...
-Hook up my lynx diag and double check there are no misfire accruing and then run test to measure cylinder roughness.
#15
07-10-2017, 08:23 PM
Recovery Vehicle
The posts that I've read on this forum seem to suggest that "slipped sleeve" condition only occurs when the motor is warm (different metallic expansion rates I'd guess).
So, knocking when cold suggests a different problem.
Low oil pressure due to a clogged oil pickup tube can cause all sorts of top end knocking sounds even when cold.
Worn rod bearings can cause a bottom end knocking sound even when cold.
Obviously there are other causes, but I'd rate those two as high on the list of probs.
You're going to drop the oil drain sump to clean the oil pickup tube no matter what...so why not replace the rod bearings "while you are there"?!
2 great fixes for 1 bit of effort.
Good luck! I've probably said too much...
So, knocking when cold suggests a different problem.
Low oil pressure due to a clogged oil pickup tube can cause all sorts of top end knocking sounds even when cold.
Worn rod bearings can cause a bottom end knocking sound even when cold.
Obviously there are other causes, but I'd rate those two as high on the list of probs.
You're going to drop the oil drain sump to clean the oil pickup tube no matter what...so why not replace the rod bearings "while you are there"?!
2 great fixes for 1 bit of effort.
Good luck! I've probably said too much...
#16
07-11-2017, 01:39 PM
Red paint was applied to the best castings which were generally reserved for their most expensive vehicle which was the Range Rover. Blue paint was applied to blocks that were deemed good quality; these could be fitted to a Range if the factory ran out of Red blocks. Blues were most often fitted to Discos. In both 4.0 and 4.6 configs I have seen Reds and Blues. I understand there was also a Yellow graded block but have never seen one.
The deterioration in the tooling/machining over time is evident in the poor fitment of 4.6 front covers which causes the oil pump problems that anyone here can tell you about, among the other problems these engines have.
Last edited by Fast951; 07-12-2017 at 10:12 AM.
#17
07-11-2017, 02:40 PM
#20
07-12-2017, 10:14 AM
I would wager a poll taken here would indicate more 4.6 problems vs. 4.0 problems by quite a significant margin.