What brand/type of rod/main bearings do you use?
#1
08-24-2014, 09:45 AM
What brand/type of rod/main bearings do you use?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
What brand/type of rod/main bearings do you use?
Who made the genuine LR bearings for our engines and what was the composition? and what is the composition of the current production replacement LR boxed bearings for our engines and who makes them for LR now?
From what I have gathered, the cheap aluminum bearings from India are the worst available, aluminum from King in Israel better, King lead/copper from Israel even better, and lead/bronze best, and with Tri-Metals... some are very good and some not so good depending on which factory/country they come from.
And yes, I do know we are not building hot rods and some will say that aluminum bearings are fine for our engines but, from what I understand aluminum bi-metal and tri-metal bearings with aluminum may be from very good to no good at all so, I guess it depends on who made them? and the application? I know that one type of bearing may be best suited for one purpose while another type better for another purpose but, in this case I am wondering what's best for rebuilding our old truck engines for general to heavy use? not a supercharged or race engine.
Engine builders... what are your opinions?
I've read that Silicon Aluminum bearings may be ok for mains but there are much better rod bearings available and for about the same, or not much more, money than aluminum.
I've noticed there are overseas vendors that carry lead/copper rod bearings (Turner for one) but I'm not sure if they are King bearings....anybody know? Also Moss carries King bearings but not sure if they have them for our engines.
I hear you can buy good quality bearings from vendors in Europe and have them shipped here and still have less money in them including shipping than you would have in the cheap aluminum bearings bought locally. So I'm thinking... if you can buy a better bearing for a few bucks more or the same price, why not? Are the lead/copper and lead/bronze bearings really better? I'm not against using Silicon Aluminum if they are well made and from King/Israel and not from the Bi-Metal Company in India.
Are there any U.S. vendors selling bi_metal or tri-metal bearings from the King factory in Israel? with King or Isreal stamped in the rear of the bearing? If so, under what brand?
I figure U.S vendors that sell parts for our engines can buy and sell the same King bearings that some vendors in Europe buy and sell so why aren't they? Is it due to the feds and regulations to do with the lead? or is it just because of the markup on cheaply made aluminum bearings? Most I see are carrying the cheap aluminum bearings and from what I have read they are from India.
I am not sure of the exact composition of Glyco, Federal Mogul, Sealed Power and then there's Clevite and Durabond and other companies, which I see often, but alot of these are just name brands and most get their bearings from the same factories. So there is alot of confusion and lack of information out there about whether they are actually made by King in Israel or from Bi-Metal in India. or if they are bi_metal or tri-metal and if they are tri-metal are they the good tri-metals or cheaply made tri-metals?
I see some advertised as tri-metal with lead/copper but not sure of the quality compared to the older lead/copper and lead/bronze bearings. If anyone has any detailed information on any of these bearing brands please add it here as the manufacturers and retailers aren't saying much. Just a sentence or two in the ads with no real information. None are saying who made the bearings or from what country.
Most of the info below is just some of what I have borrowed/saved from looking around and thought may be relevant. Most is just a copy and paste mishmash of info really so, please feel free to correct me if any of the info is not correct. I just harvested any info that I may want or need later.
Main and Rod Bearings:
> An aluminum bearing will take peak load pressures of about 3500 psi before the aluminum starts to spread out and you start to lose oil pressure.
Aluminum bearings are made of a hard material that withstands wear better than copper/lead bearings. Unfortunately, aluminum doesn't have much embed-ability which suggests that any hard abrasive particles that make their way between the journal and bearing could get trapped and mark the surface. The softer copper/lead bearings will embed the hard particles in the bearing surface, decreasing
the probability of causing a score.
Aluminum bearings are not the best choice for every application, especially for engines that may not be re-manufactured to like-new tolerances under the cleanest conditions or for engines that do not see regular oil changes. Although aluminum is harder, it doesn’t have the fatigue resistance to loading that copper/lead can provide
> Lead/copper bearings will take peak load pressures of about 9000 psi if they're well-made and are probably a good choice.
> Lead/bronze bearings, often called VP2 material, will take peak load pressures of about 12,500 psi but, not sure if they are available for our engines or necessary.
Vandervell used to make good lead/bronze bearings but the real Vandervells have been out of production for over 20 years and there are some Glacier/Vandervell boxes being sold with glacier aluminum bearings in them.
The best rod and main bearings are made by King in Israel and have Israel stamped onto the back of the bearing. Even the aluminum bearings from King at least have good consistency but, I have read that the only reason to use aluminum bearings in a rebuilt engine is if you can't find anything else. I have also read that new engines with tighter tolerances and no dirt do ok with aluminum bearings but when rebuilding an old engine they may not be the best choice since it's absolutely impossible to get all of the dirt/grit from an old engine even with the most modern cleaning systems.
The poorest quality bearings are made by Bi-Metal bearing company in India. They make bearings for many labels and the packaging may have "Made in Australia" or another country but the bearings are made in India and packaged in other countries. I have read that their bearings are the absolute worst and very inconsistent. Bi-Metal used to be Repco's plant but when the parent company of the old Repco (ACL) got in trouble financially, they sold the manufacturing facility to an Indian company and now contract to have their bearings made in India.
The Lead/Copper bearings from Israel are good. The old lead/copper bearings from Glacier are okay too, but there are some Glacier aluminum bearings around that are not so great so you have to be sure you are getting L/C if you do find Glacier.
The modern AE bearings may come from India (I'm not sure but some say they're from South Africa and some say Poland but I think that's just where they're packaged) and they may not deliver the quality available from other products.
Both Vandervell and Glacier were purchased by DANA Corporation. AE is another name that Dana bought so they all got jumbled. There are some bearings in older AE boxes that have Vandervells inside (probably rare to find). They're labeled with the "LB" code after the part number."LB" stands for Lead Bronze. There are also AE boxes that have the part number and then "LC". "LC" stands for Lead Copper - those will be Glacier bearings and are the same composition as some of the more modern tri-metals. Then there are AE boxes that have the part number and then the letters "SA". "SA" stands for Silicon Aluminum and they are the bottom of the heap.
Many of the large retailers today try to sell you aluminum bearings because they're inexpensive and the mark up is good.
The manufacturers push the aluminum bearings because they're cheap to make and there's no lead to be controlled for environmental purposes.
So...If lead/copper or lead/bronze bearings are the best for older engine rebuilds where do we find those, U.S. vendor, to fit our 4.0/4.6 engines? or what popular brands get their bearings from King/Israel?
My thoughts are that if using Bi-Metals the King SI or HP are the ones to use or if using Tri_Metals then King CP or SX are the way to go. Now I just need to find the best source.
What brand/type of rod/main bearings do you use?
Who made the genuine LR bearings for our engines and what was the composition? and what is the composition of the current production replacement LR boxed bearings for our engines and who makes them for LR now?
From what I have gathered, the cheap aluminum bearings from India are the worst available, aluminum from King in Israel better, King lead/copper from Israel even better, and lead/bronze best, and with Tri-Metals... some are very good and some not so good depending on which factory/country they come from.
And yes, I do know we are not building hot rods and some will say that aluminum bearings are fine for our engines but, from what I understand aluminum bi-metal and tri-metal bearings with aluminum may be from very good to no good at all so, I guess it depends on who made them? and the application? I know that one type of bearing may be best suited for one purpose while another type better for another purpose but, in this case I am wondering what's best for rebuilding our old truck engines for general to heavy use? not a supercharged or race engine.
Engine builders... what are your opinions?
I've read that Silicon Aluminum bearings may be ok for mains but there are much better rod bearings available and for about the same, or not much more, money than aluminum.
I've noticed there are overseas vendors that carry lead/copper rod bearings (Turner for one) but I'm not sure if they are King bearings....anybody know? Also Moss carries King bearings but not sure if they have them for our engines.
I hear you can buy good quality bearings from vendors in Europe and have them shipped here and still have less money in them including shipping than you would have in the cheap aluminum bearings bought locally. So I'm thinking... if you can buy a better bearing for a few bucks more or the same price, why not? Are the lead/copper and lead/bronze bearings really better? I'm not against using Silicon Aluminum if they are well made and from King/Israel and not from the Bi-Metal Company in India.
Are there any U.S. vendors selling bi_metal or tri-metal bearings from the King factory in Israel? with King or Isreal stamped in the rear of the bearing? If so, under what brand?
I figure U.S vendors that sell parts for our engines can buy and sell the same King bearings that some vendors in Europe buy and sell so why aren't they? Is it due to the feds and regulations to do with the lead? or is it just because of the markup on cheaply made aluminum bearings? Most I see are carrying the cheap aluminum bearings and from what I have read they are from India.
I am not sure of the exact composition of Glyco, Federal Mogul, Sealed Power and then there's Clevite and Durabond and other companies, which I see often, but alot of these are just name brands and most get their bearings from the same factories. So there is alot of confusion and lack of information out there about whether they are actually made by King in Israel or from Bi-Metal in India. or if they are bi_metal or tri-metal and if they are tri-metal are they the good tri-metals or cheaply made tri-metals?
I see some advertised as tri-metal with lead/copper but not sure of the quality compared to the older lead/copper and lead/bronze bearings. If anyone has any detailed information on any of these bearing brands please add it here as the manufacturers and retailers aren't saying much. Just a sentence or two in the ads with no real information. None are saying who made the bearings or from what country.
Most of the info below is just some of what I have borrowed/saved from looking around and thought may be relevant. Most is just a copy and paste mishmash of info really so, please feel free to correct me if any of the info is not correct. I just harvested any info that I may want or need later.
Main and Rod Bearings:
> An aluminum bearing will take peak load pressures of about 3500 psi before the aluminum starts to spread out and you start to lose oil pressure.
Aluminum bearings are made of a hard material that withstands wear better than copper/lead bearings. Unfortunately, aluminum doesn't have much embed-ability which suggests that any hard abrasive particles that make their way between the journal and bearing could get trapped and mark the surface. The softer copper/lead bearings will embed the hard particles in the bearing surface, decreasing
the probability of causing a score.
Aluminum bearings are not the best choice for every application, especially for engines that may not be re-manufactured to like-new tolerances under the cleanest conditions or for engines that do not see regular oil changes. Although aluminum is harder, it doesn’t have the fatigue resistance to loading that copper/lead can provide
> Lead/copper bearings will take peak load pressures of about 9000 psi if they're well-made and are probably a good choice.
> Lead/bronze bearings, often called VP2 material, will take peak load pressures of about 12,500 psi but, not sure if they are available for our engines or necessary.
Vandervell used to make good lead/bronze bearings but the real Vandervells have been out of production for over 20 years and there are some Glacier/Vandervell boxes being sold with glacier aluminum bearings in them.
The best rod and main bearings are made by King in Israel and have Israel stamped onto the back of the bearing. Even the aluminum bearings from King at least have good consistency but, I have read that the only reason to use aluminum bearings in a rebuilt engine is if you can't find anything else. I have also read that new engines with tighter tolerances and no dirt do ok with aluminum bearings but when rebuilding an old engine they may not be the best choice since it's absolutely impossible to get all of the dirt/grit from an old engine even with the most modern cleaning systems.
The poorest quality bearings are made by Bi-Metal bearing company in India. They make bearings for many labels and the packaging may have "Made in Australia" or another country but the bearings are made in India and packaged in other countries. I have read that their bearings are the absolute worst and very inconsistent. Bi-Metal used to be Repco's plant but when the parent company of the old Repco (ACL) got in trouble financially, they sold the manufacturing facility to an Indian company and now contract to have their bearings made in India.
The Lead/Copper bearings from Israel are good. The old lead/copper bearings from Glacier are okay too, but there are some Glacier aluminum bearings around that are not so great so you have to be sure you are getting L/C if you do find Glacier.
The modern AE bearings may come from India (I'm not sure but some say they're from South Africa and some say Poland but I think that's just where they're packaged) and they may not deliver the quality available from other products.
Both Vandervell and Glacier were purchased by DANA Corporation. AE is another name that Dana bought so they all got jumbled. There are some bearings in older AE boxes that have Vandervells inside (probably rare to find). They're labeled with the "LB" code after the part number."LB" stands for Lead Bronze. There are also AE boxes that have the part number and then "LC". "LC" stands for Lead Copper - those will be Glacier bearings and are the same composition as some of the more modern tri-metals. Then there are AE boxes that have the part number and then the letters "SA". "SA" stands for Silicon Aluminum and they are the bottom of the heap.
Many of the large retailers today try to sell you aluminum bearings because they're inexpensive and the mark up is good.
The manufacturers push the aluminum bearings because they're cheap to make and there's no lead to be controlled for environmental purposes.
So...If lead/copper or lead/bronze bearings are the best for older engine rebuilds where do we find those, U.S. vendor, to fit our 4.0/4.6 engines? or what popular brands get their bearings from King/Israel?
My thoughts are that if using Bi-Metals the King SI or HP are the ones to use or if using Tri_Metals then King CP or SX are the way to go. Now I just need to find the best source.
Last edited by RicketyTick; 08-25-2014 at 08:50 AM.
#3
08-25-2014, 02:43 PM
boy you got an education on bearings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(metal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(metal)
Yea if they applied the 140 character rule I could hang it up. haha!
I don't think King makes their SI bi-metal or HP tri-metal rod bearings for our 4.0L and 4.6L engines. But do make the AM and CP.
MB5031AM Bi-Metal (only rated as fair on nodular cast crank)
CR890CP tri-metal (rated as excellent up to overlay removal on nodular cast crank)
Summit has them both for $79.95 a set, or can get them, but they can be bought cheaper from Turner below.
Turner Engineering has STC 1426 Conrod bearing set. Lead copper heavy duty. Replacement $33.08 plus shipping (made by King)
Last edited by RicketyTick; 08-26-2014 at 09:50 AM.
#4
08-26-2014, 09:32 AM
Good news! (at least good news for me...others may not care!)
I just heard back from Turner and their STC 1426 ConRods Bearing Set Lead Copper Heavy Duty Replacement $33.08 US are in fact made by King/Israel.
(No guarantees that bearing sets advertised elsewhere using the part # STC 1426 will be King Bearings. I see alot of different vendors using this part number. I only verified that the ones Turner sells under part # STC 1426 are made by King)
BTW, Turner also sells Pre-finished Cam Bearings for our engines STC 1961 Camshaft Bearing Set for $32.35 US
Below is a copy of their reply to my email:
"Thank you for your e mail. The bearings in question STC 1426 are manufactured by King Bearings in Israel and are of excellent quality and as used in our own production .
I trust the above answers your query.
Regards
Frida Turner
Turner Engineering
Churchill House
West Park Road
Newchapel, nr Lingfield
Surrey RH7 6HT
United Kingdom
Tel : +44 (0) 1342 834713
Turner Engineering - Remanufacturer of Land Rover Engines and supplier of Land Rover engine parts
wwwturnerengineering.co.uk online store
Divison of Agency & General Investment Co Ltd
Registered in England No: 1115015
Registered Office : BR1 3RA
VAT registration No : GB 210 9301 15"
I just heard back from Turner and their STC 1426 ConRods Bearing Set Lead Copper Heavy Duty Replacement $33.08 US are in fact made by King/Israel.
(No guarantees that bearing sets advertised elsewhere using the part # STC 1426 will be King Bearings. I see alot of different vendors using this part number. I only verified that the ones Turner sells under part # STC 1426 are made by King)
BTW, Turner also sells Pre-finished Cam Bearings for our engines STC 1961 Camshaft Bearing Set for $32.35 US
Below is a copy of their reply to my email:
"Thank you for your e mail. The bearings in question STC 1426 are manufactured by King Bearings in Israel and are of excellent quality and as used in our own production .
I trust the above answers your query.
Regards
Frida Turner
Turner Engineering
Churchill House
West Park Road
Newchapel, nr Lingfield
Surrey RH7 6HT
United Kingdom
Tel : +44 (0) 1342 834713
Turner Engineering - Remanufacturer of Land Rover Engines and supplier of Land Rover engine parts
wwwturnerengineering.co.uk online store
Divison of Agency & General Investment Co Ltd
Registered in England No: 1115015
Registered Office : BR1 3RA
VAT registration No : GB 210 9301 15"
Last edited by RicketyTick; 08-26-2014 at 12:09 PM.
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