What's sensors do I not need?
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
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From: Longview, Texas
That's what I'm thinking. Of course obdii and dash lights would never work right. Or at least they would require that electrical engineering knowledge that everyone lacks or in the case of the check engine maybe just a dual bcu and cluster. In don't know. But gauges can tell you what you need to know and are readily available for any setup and all of the obdii crap is needed primarily on complicated computerized engines. Old ones. And simple ones just don't need it.
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 248
From: Longview, Texas
I saw a video of a guy showing his Disco II for sale with an Isuzu diesel engine that was the Isuzu version of the Cummins 4bt. It is not an electronic engine. It had been professionally installed and he made a point of saying or showing that the check engine light went out (and didn't come back on). Maybe his ECU was reprogrammed. But I think it is more likely that someone grafted the important Rover sensors on a freaking Isuzu box van engine. He had a standard transmission, I think.
Winching
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 676
Likes: 43
When you talk about OM617, old Fords, or a V12, those all have some advantage, but the Rover V8 has its own. The problems you point out are a either a reasonable feature or a result of defects in the last few years of production.
Replacing head gaskets every 100,000 miles would be totally anti-thematic for an OM617, but the Rover V8 doesn't try to be an OM617. It's an all-aluminum V8. It's on the far opposite spectrum from the Mercedes. Only a Ferrari turbo V8 would be farther from the OM617. Nobody would question if a Ferrari 208 GTS turbo V8 needed a new head gasket every hundred thousand.
The cooling problems are mostly due to coolant loss which happens because of neglect or one of the few defects. Unless you want to blame the engine for a corroded radiator, a failed water pump, or a broken fan clutch. Maintain the basics and the engine cools as well as any. But it is true that the factory produced blocks that crack behind the cylinder liner, resulting in coolant blowing into the cylinders and accelerating head gasket erosion. That's a defect, and while it doesn't affect most Rover V8's for decades of production, the last few years seem to have produced a lot of those. The solution is top-hat/flanged liners, and that's not an unreasonable prospect unless you expect the engine to run 300,000 miles without a rebuild (see OM617).
I understand there's also defects in the front cover and the oil pump, but again, those only affect the last few years of production, and the worst of it, a fairly narrow range of the population.
If you only ever drive on the street, and don't offroad, you won't appreciate the light weight of the Rover V8. It's not even that the Rover V8 is especially light weight. It's not. But when you compare a Defender or a Discovery to a RZR or other side-by-side that they're increasingly likely to share trails with these days, the last thing you would consider is swapping in a V12 or a diesel. These things are already 5000 pounds with steel, and there's nothing a V12 can do for you offroad. On the street, adding three hundred pounds makes little difference, and the extra 200 horsepower more than makes up for it. Offroad, that doesn't work at all. Diesels add the weight without the power. They're totally inferior unless you need the mileage because indeed in the UK for example, fuel is indeed a lot more than "4 dollars."
I wouldn't swap the Rover V8 out of my Discovery 1 for anything. But I can see different engines in different vehicles for different purposes. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for long distance overlanding, but neither is the Discovery 1. An OM617 in a 300GD will go farther on whatever you find in a cruddy barrel on the roadside in Angola, but if you wanted the drive to be more pleasant, late-model Land Rover or Toyota diesels are better. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for driving around the freeways or Interstates, but neither is the Discovery 1/II. In that case, you're better off with a Range Rover Sport SVR with a super-charged AJ133. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for recreational rock bouncing. In that case you'd want a late-model, high displacement Chevy like an LSX or LT4. But for an occasional use, family-friendly, leisure 4x4 that can drive on the highway and just about any kind of offroad trail to get access to every outdoor activity one could imagine without any drama, the Rover V8 in the Discovery works ideally. Changing it would be like changing the motor on a Toro lawn mower. Even if it wasn't completely pointless, you still couldn't find a better motor.
Replacing head gaskets every 100,000 miles would be totally anti-thematic for an OM617, but the Rover V8 doesn't try to be an OM617. It's an all-aluminum V8. It's on the far opposite spectrum from the Mercedes. Only a Ferrari turbo V8 would be farther from the OM617. Nobody would question if a Ferrari 208 GTS turbo V8 needed a new head gasket every hundred thousand.
The cooling problems are mostly due to coolant loss which happens because of neglect or one of the few defects. Unless you want to blame the engine for a corroded radiator, a failed water pump, or a broken fan clutch. Maintain the basics and the engine cools as well as any. But it is true that the factory produced blocks that crack behind the cylinder liner, resulting in coolant blowing into the cylinders and accelerating head gasket erosion. That's a defect, and while it doesn't affect most Rover V8's for decades of production, the last few years seem to have produced a lot of those. The solution is top-hat/flanged liners, and that's not an unreasonable prospect unless you expect the engine to run 300,000 miles without a rebuild (see OM617).
I understand there's also defects in the front cover and the oil pump, but again, those only affect the last few years of production, and the worst of it, a fairly narrow range of the population.
If you only ever drive on the street, and don't offroad, you won't appreciate the light weight of the Rover V8. It's not even that the Rover V8 is especially light weight. It's not. But when you compare a Defender or a Discovery to a RZR or other side-by-side that they're increasingly likely to share trails with these days, the last thing you would consider is swapping in a V12 or a diesel. These things are already 5000 pounds with steel, and there's nothing a V12 can do for you offroad. On the street, adding three hundred pounds makes little difference, and the extra 200 horsepower more than makes up for it. Offroad, that doesn't work at all. Diesels add the weight without the power. They're totally inferior unless you need the mileage because indeed in the UK for example, fuel is indeed a lot more than "4 dollars."
I wouldn't swap the Rover V8 out of my Discovery 1 for anything. But I can see different engines in different vehicles for different purposes. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for long distance overlanding, but neither is the Discovery 1. An OM617 in a 300GD will go farther on whatever you find in a cruddy barrel on the roadside in Angola, but if you wanted the drive to be more pleasant, late-model Land Rover or Toyota diesels are better. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for driving around the freeways or Interstates, but neither is the Discovery 1/II. In that case, you're better off with a Range Rover Sport SVR with a super-charged AJ133. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for recreational rock bouncing. In that case you'd want a late-model, high displacement Chevy like an LSX or LT4. But for an occasional use, family-friendly, leisure 4x4 that can drive on the highway and just about any kind of offroad trail to get access to every outdoor activity one could imagine without any drama, the Rover V8 in the Discovery works ideally. Changing it would be like changing the motor on a Toro lawn mower. Even if it wasn't completely pointless, you still couldn't find a better motor.
I saw a video of a guy showing his Disco II for sale with an Isuzu diesel engine that was the Isuzu version of the Cummins 4bt. It is not an electronic engine. It had been professionally installed and he made a point of saying or showing that the check engine light went out (and didn't come back on). Maybe his ECU was reprogrammed. But I think it is more likely that someone grafted the important Rover sensors on a freaking Isuzu box van engine. He had a standard transmission, I think.
It is possible. these guys can do Lexus V8 swaps. Only problem is its in south Africa.....shipping charges would be insane.
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 248
From: Longview, Texas
When you talk about OM617, old Fords, or a V12, those all have some advantage, but the Rover V8 has its own. The problems you point out are a either a reasonable feature or a result of defects in the last few years of production.
Replacing head gaskets every 100,000 miles would be totally anti-thematic for an OM617, but the Rover V8 doesn't try to be an OM617. It's an all-aluminum V8. It's on the far opposite spectrum from the Mercedes. Only a Ferrari turbo V8 would be farther from the OM617. Nobody would question if a Ferrari 208 GTS turbo V8 needed a new head gasket every hundred thousand.
The cooling problems are mostly due to coolant loss which happens because of neglect or one of the few defects. Unless you want to blame the engine for a corroded radiator, a failed water pump, or a broken fan clutch. Maintain the basics and the engine cools as well as any. But it is true that the factory produced blocks that crack behind the cylinder liner, resulting in coolant blowing into the cylinders and accelerating head gasket erosion. That's a defect, and while it doesn't affect most Rover V8's for decades of production, the last few years seem to have produced a lot of those. The solution is top-hat/flanged liners, and that's not an unreasonable prospect unless you expect the engine to run 300,000 miles without a rebuild (see OM617).
I understand there's also defects in the front cover and the oil pump, but again, those only affect the last few years of production, and the worst of it, a fairly narrow range of the population.
If you only ever drive on the street, and don't offroad, you won't appreciate the light weight of the Rover V8. It's not even that the Rover V8 is especially light weight. It's not. But when you compare a Defender or a Discovery to a RZR or other side-by-side that they're increasingly likely to share trails with these days, the last thing you would consider is swapping in a V12 or a diesel. These things are already 5000 pounds with steel, and there's nothing a V12 can do for you offroad. On the street, adding three hundred pounds makes little difference, and the extra 200 horsepower more than makes up for it. Offroad, that doesn't work at all. Diesels add the weight without the power. They're totally inferior unless you need the mileage because indeed in the UK for example, fuel is indeed a lot more than "4 dollars."
I wouldn't swap the Rover V8 out of my Discovery 1 for anything. But I can see different engines in different vehicles for different purposes. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for long distance overlanding, but neither is the Discovery 1. An OM617 in a 300GD will go farther on whatever you find in a cruddy barrel on the roadside in Angola, but if you wanted the drive to be more pleasant, late-model Land Rover or Toyota diesels are better. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for driving around the freeways or Interstates, but neither is the Discovery 1/II. In that case, you're better off with a Range Rover Sport SVR with a super-charged AJ133. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for recreational rock bouncing. In that case you'd want a late-model, high displacement Chevy like an LSX or LT4. But for an occasional use, family-friendly, leisure 4x4 that can drive on the highway and just about any kind of offroad trail to get access to every outdoor activity one could imagine without any drama, the Rover V8 in the Discovery works ideally. Changing it would be like changing the motor on a Toro lawn mower. Even if it wasn't completely pointless, you still couldn't find a better motor.
Replacing head gaskets every 100,000 miles would be totally anti-thematic for an OM617, but the Rover V8 doesn't try to be an OM617. It's an all-aluminum V8. It's on the far opposite spectrum from the Mercedes. Only a Ferrari turbo V8 would be farther from the OM617. Nobody would question if a Ferrari 208 GTS turbo V8 needed a new head gasket every hundred thousand.
The cooling problems are mostly due to coolant loss which happens because of neglect or one of the few defects. Unless you want to blame the engine for a corroded radiator, a failed water pump, or a broken fan clutch. Maintain the basics and the engine cools as well as any. But it is true that the factory produced blocks that crack behind the cylinder liner, resulting in coolant blowing into the cylinders and accelerating head gasket erosion. That's a defect, and while it doesn't affect most Rover V8's for decades of production, the last few years seem to have produced a lot of those. The solution is top-hat/flanged liners, and that's not an unreasonable prospect unless you expect the engine to run 300,000 miles without a rebuild (see OM617).
I understand there's also defects in the front cover and the oil pump, but again, those only affect the last few years of production, and the worst of it, a fairly narrow range of the population.
If you only ever drive on the street, and don't offroad, you won't appreciate the light weight of the Rover V8. It's not even that the Rover V8 is especially light weight. It's not. But when you compare a Defender or a Discovery to a RZR or other side-by-side that they're increasingly likely to share trails with these days, the last thing you would consider is swapping in a V12 or a diesel. These things are already 5000 pounds with steel, and there's nothing a V12 can do for you offroad. On the street, adding three hundred pounds makes little difference, and the extra 200 horsepower more than makes up for it. Offroad, that doesn't work at all. Diesels add the weight without the power. They're totally inferior unless you need the mileage because indeed in the UK for example, fuel is indeed a lot more than "4 dollars."
I wouldn't swap the Rover V8 out of my Discovery 1 for anything. But I can see different engines in different vehicles for different purposes. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for long distance overlanding, but neither is the Discovery 1. An OM617 in a 300GD will go farther on whatever you find in a cruddy barrel on the roadside in Angola, but if you wanted the drive to be more pleasant, late-model Land Rover or Toyota diesels are better. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for driving around the freeways or Interstates, but neither is the Discovery 1/II. In that case, you're better off with a Range Rover Sport SVR with a super-charged AJ133. The Rover V8 isn't ideal for recreational rock bouncing. In that case you'd want a late-model, high displacement Chevy like an LSX or LT4. But for an occasional use, family-friendly, leisure 4x4 that can drive on the highway and just about any kind of offroad trail to get access to every outdoor activity one could imagine without any drama, the Rover V8 in the Discovery works ideally. Changing it would be like changing the motor on a Toro lawn mower. Even if it wasn't completely pointless, you still couldn't find a better motor.
My question does necessarily ponder a swap, but I have a 4.6 on a stand in my garage with new bearings, rings, crower cam, honed cylinders, turned crank, all new bolts and washers, clean as a whistle, etc. I have some money in it. I bought a whole rover to get it and the transmission.
I am certainly not an expert on rover engines, and that is as much of a factor as anything. I have read alot of learned writings about the shortcomings of the rover engines, most of which are fixed with 1500 dollars of flanged liners and labor (not including teardown and replacement labor and other incidentals), and maybe some head studs depending on your preference. That strikes me as an unreasonable amount to spend to make an engine truly reliable when extremely reliable engines can be had and fitted for a couple of thousand dollars of you have some of the things I have. Parts are not cheap for rovers. I mentioned in another thread that the purge valve at the dealer is about 300 dollars and the precise same, interchangeable part for a Hyundai is 50 bucks. That's a rarity. Most of the parts are super expensive. Cannibal v8 is having a hard time on some forums (not saying they don't deserve it) but it is at least in part because their engines, installed, cost 10 to 12 thousand dollars. That's nuts for what you get with the BEST Rover v8! But the fact that I am not an expert and no great mechanic, and I don't have a local dealership and wouldn't use one if I did, tilt in favor of a more simple engine in my circumstances.
My head gaskets first blew because of hose or hose clamp, not poor maintenance. I wasn't driving so I don't know what may have cause the hose or clamp (never found it) to blow but it was in my third year of ownership and I bought it new. The next time it blew I didn't have rusted or broken parts. But I did have heads that had not been planed. That's my fault and had I known more I would have done that, but I went the only way I could figure out on my own when I got a 2500 estimate to change the gaskets. Totally ridiculous. I've done it several times on two rovers and I wouldn't pay 2500 for all of those head gasket jobs combined unless they were guaranteed never to blow, and no one does that.
When I had that 4.6 redone the mechanic showed me a picture of a true Buick 215. It looked like a military version of our engines. The rover engine really is a basic 215 with enhancements and several sensors. The enhancements and sensors make it lighter and presumably more powerful, but I don't think they make it more reliable or durable... The opposite. And even if I am wrong about that, the rover v8, as it ages, is out of the league of a shadetree amateur mechanic where a Buick 215 would be an easy thing to maintain.
Every time we took our lifted, snorkeled, oversized tire-d ATVs to a park or an event, something broke, some drunk offended people, someone got hurt, or the weather was bad. I enjoyed that for a time but going offroad in any serious way is not in my future in the rover or any other vehicle. I sold the ATVs and the custom trailer and all of that crap long ago.
I just like my rover because I paid it off. I've had it through marriage, job and residence changes, and really bad weather. My youngest was 2 when I got it and is entering college next year. But if I am going to keep it in its new life as a fun, old suv to drive, it needs to be at least easier and cheaper to fix, and at best more dependable. And anyway, I paid the big bucks for this truck and have suffered it all of these years so I figure I can do whatever I want with it. I know you aren't saying I can't... I'm just expressing that I'm far beyond the awe and mystique of land rover and any deference for the manufacturer engine choice, and just consider it a myrover. Certainly the engine choice made sense for its intended use which was, I remember clearly, well-heeled soccer mom's who didn't want to drive a crusher minivan any longer. But for its actual use at my house, that engine misses the mark now. I may be stuck with it, and that's fine, but it is worth at least considering other possibilities.
The mercedes diesel? I wish I hadn't mentioned it. My best one is in the car now and other other one (a spare I got from a mechanic and have never used) is on the stand. The primary one has no blow by at 155000 miles and has never failed even when the valve cover was loose and it bled seven quarts an hour on its maiden voyage from Reno. It is underpowered. It gets great mileage. It never breaks. Adjusting it is a snap. It has a big brass lever on top that says "stop" in case it doesn't want to turn off, or you can hold your hand over the intake. There is no plastic, just brass and iron and rubber hoses. It cares not about vacuum or spark or fuel trim. It has to have a vacuum pump to operate door locks and other things. The fuel pump is mechanical. It doesn't require a battery to start or run. In a pinch its only electrical fuses for things like the radio, lights, sunroof, and antenna can be made from baling wire. It doesn't have an alarm. A battery can sit in it for months and not discharge. So I could do for worse if I just wanted a pokey, reliable suv to drive around town in once a week or once a month. But I shouldn't have mentioned it because it works just fine in my Mercedes and the spare is still an unknown.
Affectionately known as the "rolling turd" by my kids.
Last edited by Charlie_V; Mar 18, 2016 at 01:06 AM.
Winching
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 676
Likes: 37
From: Wylie, TX
Don't know if a conversion to a TD5 is an option?
v8 to td5 swap? - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
v8 to td5 swap? - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
Thread Starter
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 248
From: Longview, Texas
Don't know if a conversion to a TD5 is an option?
v8 to td5 swap? - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
v8 to td5 swap? - Land Rover Forums : Land Rover and Range Rover Forum
A straight swap with Rover components would always be the easiest option. But my theory here is that just about anything would work with a few sensors bolted on; I'm just not positive which ones. And that parts should be cheap, plentiful, and available on this side of the pond, and a td5 or 300tdi would address some of the concern, but not those.
People make nv4500 to lt230 adapters, commercially. They were probably dreamed up for the defender market because they cost 600 dollars each and defender people like to put Chevy engines in their trucks. But the US defenders are usually old and not hamstrung by electronics. I'm still wondering if we really are. People don't spend big money on Discos because they aren't worth much. They'd be worth more if you could horsepower them up (not my concern) and tinker with them (my concern) or make them get 25 mpg, rather than being stuck with our engines. If my Disco was dependable and easy to fix and got 25mpg I'd drive it all the time; it would represent a second or third life for a great truck.
Last edited by Charlie_V; Mar 18, 2016 at 11:02 AM.
Winching
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 676
Likes: 37
From: Wylie, TX
People don't spend big money on Discos because they aren't worth much. They'd be worth more if you could horsepower them up (not my concern) and tinker with them (my concern) or make them get 25 mpg, rather than being stuck with our engines. If my Disco was dependable and easy to fix and got 25mpg I'd drive it all the time; it would represent a second or third life for a great truck.
That said, I have not sunk a fortune in it yet, and learned a lot about keeping it running. But, my two things I always keep in mind are:
1- this truck has been and still is a daily driver for the last 13 years. It will be retired as a daily driver in the next year. Then it will become a "toy". Up until now, there has been NO wheeling, off-roading, mudding, rock crawling, or anything other than just hauling us to work and back. Kind of a tedious truck to maintain just to be a commuter vehicle.
2- When it becomes a "toy", what will I actually be doing with it? I don't see myself taking up mudding, we don't rock crawl around here, the only thing I foresee is going to mountain bike places and kayak places. I'll spend money for a roof rack, lift and new tires - but if it keeps breaking after that - the Toyota Tacoma we plan to buy might just be well enough alone.
Anyway - I love the truck but it becomes a test of patience in the end, I guess. So far I have plenty, I hope to keep patience as long as I can, with this "commuter" vehicle. :-) This truck really is a "purpose" driven truck and without a "purpose" it can really be a money pit. LOL
Last edited by jamieb; Mar 18, 2016 at 11:46 AM.
Thread Starter
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 248
From: Longview, Texas
I hear ya for sure. My deal is my wife paid $40-something K for this "Westminster" 2002 DII which is supposed to be a rare one. I met her 4 years ago and we've been married the last 3. So, I was essentially "given" a "free" DII to assume repairs and responsibility for. Last year I dropped 1/2 of the cost for head gaskets (she picked up the other half) so I put about $1200 into it. Since then, we decided we were going to keep it for my son to learn to drive in, and I am probably now in it for about $3500-ish for lots of little things.
That said, I have not sunk a fortune in it yet, and learned a lot about keeping it running. But, my two things I always keep in mind are:
1- this truck has been and still is a daily driver for the last 13 years. It will be retired as a daily driver in the next year. Then it will become a "toy". Up until now, there has been NO wheeling, off-roading, mudding, rock crawling, or anything other than just hauling us to work and back. Kind of a tedious truck to maintain just to be a commuter vehicle.
2- When it becomes a "toy", what will I actually be doing with it? I don't see myself taking up mudding, we don't rock crawl around here, the only thing I foresee is going to mountain bike places and kayak places. I'll spend money for a roof rack, lift and new tires - but if it keeps breaking after that - the Toyota Tacoma we plan to buy might just be well enough alone.
Anyway - I love the truck but it becomes a test of patience in the end, I guess. So far I have plenty, I hope to keep patience as long as I can, with this "commuter" vehicle. :-) This truck really is a "purpose" driven truck and without a "purpose" it can really be a money pit. LOL
That said, I have not sunk a fortune in it yet, and learned a lot about keeping it running. But, my two things I always keep in mind are:
1- this truck has been and still is a daily driver for the last 13 years. It will be retired as a daily driver in the next year. Then it will become a "toy". Up until now, there has been NO wheeling, off-roading, mudding, rock crawling, or anything other than just hauling us to work and back. Kind of a tedious truck to maintain just to be a commuter vehicle.
2- When it becomes a "toy", what will I actually be doing with it? I don't see myself taking up mudding, we don't rock crawl around here, the only thing I foresee is going to mountain bike places and kayak places. I'll spend money for a roof rack, lift and new tires - but if it keeps breaking after that - the Toyota Tacoma we plan to buy might just be well enough alone.
Anyway - I love the truck but it becomes a test of patience in the end, I guess. So far I have plenty, I hope to keep patience as long as I can, with this "commuter" vehicle. :-) This truck really is a "purpose" driven truck and without a "purpose" it can really be a money pit. LOL
The ones with head gasket problems are already a dime a dozen. I bought one and tore it down. If I could have spent another couple thousand and put a remanufactured Chevy in it I'd still have it today (or I would have sold it and bought three more).
Haha purpose driven truck without a purpose. I like that!
Last edited by Charlie_V; Mar 18, 2016 at 06:20 PM.