Head Bolt "Recovery," Is There Hope?
#1
11-05-2013, 11:43 AM
Head Bolt "Recovery," Is There Hope?
I am the owner of a '99 Discovery 2 and am in need of some advice. I apologize for the length of this post, but it seems that the more information I can give you to start with, the better? Here is some background:
I have owned my Disco 2 for just under 5 years now. I purchased it with 96k miles on the odometer, and now stand at around 145k. My wife and I have loved the Disco, taken it through the desert and mountains of the West(ern USA) and feel like we have been relatively lucky in not having too many "major" repair issues thus far.
We found a reputable shop soon after purchasing the vehicle, and right away had to do a head gasket job (issue was present before we purchased it). Since then, we have replaced the front drive shaft with a grease-able version, and a small handful of other repairs such as blown hoses, electrical issues, and the rear door actuator.
The current problem began this past summer one morning when I started the vehicle to drive to work. The engine shuddered when cold (issue resolved once it was warm), and the check engine light came on. I took it in to the shop to have the codes read: cylinder #8 was misfiring, and I had lost a quantity of coolant. The oil cap was not discolored, nor was their evidence of coolant in the exhaust, but you could smell that the engine was burning coolant. It seemed to indicate a head gasket issue, and was told to watch it and would unfortunately soon have to look into doing the head gasket job.
I made my best effort to stay on top of the coolant level (have been using green stuff ever since I purchased the vehicle) over the next few days (filled it every other day?), but then the engine overheated due to rapidly lost coolant. I quickly stopped the car and let it cool down, and then was able to get it home. I tried to limp it along for a couple of weeks while I decided what to do with it, made some mistakes in not having coolant on hand and having to put water in when it overheated again (and worse, as I was stuck in a traffic jam) much sooner than expected. I was then unable to start the vehicle, and suspected the cylinder #8 was the main epicenter of my woes. On a friend's suggestion, I removed the spark plug to that cylinder and was successful at starting the engine, which also blew out the coolant that had pooled in the cylinder. Luckily, my engine was not seized.
I towed the vehicle to another shop (local junior college) to have a second opinion and see if I could potentially save some money on the repair. In the end, I decided that the time has come for me to learn more about repairing my own vehicle.
I have been reading numerous threads here on this forum, researching how to do this right. I have the RAVE CD and have been following the procedure. I recruited the assistance of a friend that has much more experience than I working on cars including engines, though he had not yet worked on a Rover. I have followed the suggestions of many on threads here and am replacing (besides the complete head gasket kit and new head bolts) the water pump, thermostat, spark plug wires, and spark plugs (the top hose is the "newer" type, and I have already replaced some of the hoses, so not sure if I need to do all the rest of the hoses right now?). I do not know if my viscous fan or other electrical fan(s?) are working properly.
Though it has taken some time, the project has gone pretty well so far. I have been labeling parts in bags, taking photos, taking notes... we eventually got down to the point of getting the heads off. The head gasket issue became more than obvious at that point: multiple cylinders were full of coolant and the head gaskets were shot. I checked the block for warping with a borrowed straight edge and feeler gauge and it passed. The cylinder sleeves had neither raised nor lowered. I took the heads to an experienced machinist (particularly with Rovers): the heads were not cracked, but did require machining.
This past Saturday, my friend and I finally got to the point of starting the process putting everything back together again. The block and heads were clean and dry, we carefully placed the head gaskets and then heads, and began the process of torquing the head bolts. I gave the instructions to my friend of first torquing the bolts in sequence to 15lb/ft of torque, which would then be followed by the first 90° sequence. My friend was not familiar with the type of torque wrench I had purchased (digital Craftsman model), thinking that the wrench would not allow us to torque above the setting. Bolt #1 was torqued more than 15lb/ft, but then the issue was found and the rest were torqued correctly. We then waited about 30 minutes, and moved on to the first 90 degree sequence (including an attempt to compensate and partially torque bolt #1). We did not mark on the bolts so that we could see exactly when we had reached 90 degrees. We have paused at this point.
I know, I know... this is contrary to all of the advice that is given on this forum, as well as the manual. I was deferring to my friend that knows much more what he's doing under the hood than I, though I've been the one reading what Rover owners, etc., recommend. His perspective is that what we really are aiming for in the end is a calculated torque value for this engine, and that though we had messed up on the instructions, we should be able to recover and get where we need to be on the final torque for the head bolts without having to start over. As this is not the method that everyone here suggests, I'm concerned. One other friend of mine has said the same thing as the one working with me: his feeling is that torque that you can actually measure is highly preferable to the 90 degree method. I trust him, but also know that no one knows everything.
I have searched and searched, and so far not found more than a couple of individuals that say you should torque to a value on this engine. I have not found any documentation on this either, other than the recommended 15lb/ft, followed by 90 degree turn, and then another 90 degree turn (all in sequence).
Finally, I come to my questions: what do you suggest that I do at this point? Can I test the torque on that bolt #1 to see if we went too far and still recover the bolts and gaskets that I have started with? Does anyone have values for what the torque should measure at after this first 90 degree turn? I would think that this information would have to be somewhere, how else would the Rover engineers know that the 90 degree turn and second 90 degree turn give the exact results that are needed? It had to have been measured at one point, right? If this is indeed the case, my hope is that we can get to these measured torque values for all bolts, and then proceed with the final 90 degree turn and still be ok.
As the person that owns the car, but also knows the least about how to repair it, this is where I stand: my fear is that I need to say no, my friends, you are wrong...then throw out more cash, remove the head bolts and gaskets (would they be bad at this point, only partway through the torquing procedure?), and worst case, start with new head gaskets and bolts and do it, once again, 100% according to the Rave Manual's suggested method. I obviously want it done right, and, though I am getting closer to when I need to finally get this done, I do not want to regret actions taken now while I'm down in my engine this far. I look forward to thoughts and suggestions...
I have owned my Disco 2 for just under 5 years now. I purchased it with 96k miles on the odometer, and now stand at around 145k. My wife and I have loved the Disco, taken it through the desert and mountains of the West(ern USA) and feel like we have been relatively lucky in not having too many "major" repair issues thus far.
We found a reputable shop soon after purchasing the vehicle, and right away had to do a head gasket job (issue was present before we purchased it). Since then, we have replaced the front drive shaft with a grease-able version, and a small handful of other repairs such as blown hoses, electrical issues, and the rear door actuator.
The current problem began this past summer one morning when I started the vehicle to drive to work. The engine shuddered when cold (issue resolved once it was warm), and the check engine light came on. I took it in to the shop to have the codes read: cylinder #8 was misfiring, and I had lost a quantity of coolant. The oil cap was not discolored, nor was their evidence of coolant in the exhaust, but you could smell that the engine was burning coolant. It seemed to indicate a head gasket issue, and was told to watch it and would unfortunately soon have to look into doing the head gasket job.
I made my best effort to stay on top of the coolant level (have been using green stuff ever since I purchased the vehicle) over the next few days (filled it every other day?), but then the engine overheated due to rapidly lost coolant. I quickly stopped the car and let it cool down, and then was able to get it home. I tried to limp it along for a couple of weeks while I decided what to do with it, made some mistakes in not having coolant on hand and having to put water in when it overheated again (and worse, as I was stuck in a traffic jam) much sooner than expected. I was then unable to start the vehicle, and suspected the cylinder #8 was the main epicenter of my woes. On a friend's suggestion, I removed the spark plug to that cylinder and was successful at starting the engine, which also blew out the coolant that had pooled in the cylinder. Luckily, my engine was not seized.
I towed the vehicle to another shop (local junior college) to have a second opinion and see if I could potentially save some money on the repair. In the end, I decided that the time has come for me to learn more about repairing my own vehicle.
I have been reading numerous threads here on this forum, researching how to do this right. I have the RAVE CD and have been following the procedure. I recruited the assistance of a friend that has much more experience than I working on cars including engines, though he had not yet worked on a Rover. I have followed the suggestions of many on threads here and am replacing (besides the complete head gasket kit and new head bolts) the water pump, thermostat, spark plug wires, and spark plugs (the top hose is the "newer" type, and I have already replaced some of the hoses, so not sure if I need to do all the rest of the hoses right now?). I do not know if my viscous fan or other electrical fan(s?) are working properly.
Though it has taken some time, the project has gone pretty well so far. I have been labeling parts in bags, taking photos, taking notes... we eventually got down to the point of getting the heads off. The head gasket issue became more than obvious at that point: multiple cylinders were full of coolant and the head gaskets were shot. I checked the block for warping with a borrowed straight edge and feeler gauge and it passed. The cylinder sleeves had neither raised nor lowered. I took the heads to an experienced machinist (particularly with Rovers): the heads were not cracked, but did require machining.
This past Saturday, my friend and I finally got to the point of starting the process putting everything back together again. The block and heads were clean and dry, we carefully placed the head gaskets and then heads, and began the process of torquing the head bolts. I gave the instructions to my friend of first torquing the bolts in sequence to 15lb/ft of torque, which would then be followed by the first 90° sequence. My friend was not familiar with the type of torque wrench I had purchased (digital Craftsman model), thinking that the wrench would not allow us to torque above the setting. Bolt #1 was torqued more than 15lb/ft, but then the issue was found and the rest were torqued correctly. We then waited about 30 minutes, and moved on to the first 90 degree sequence (including an attempt to compensate and partially torque bolt #1). We did not mark on the bolts so that we could see exactly when we had reached 90 degrees. We have paused at this point.
I know, I know... this is contrary to all of the advice that is given on this forum, as well as the manual. I was deferring to my friend that knows much more what he's doing under the hood than I, though I've been the one reading what Rover owners, etc., recommend. His perspective is that what we really are aiming for in the end is a calculated torque value for this engine, and that though we had messed up on the instructions, we should be able to recover and get where we need to be on the final torque for the head bolts without having to start over. As this is not the method that everyone here suggests, I'm concerned. One other friend of mine has said the same thing as the one working with me: his feeling is that torque that you can actually measure is highly preferable to the 90 degree method. I trust him, but also know that no one knows everything.
I have searched and searched, and so far not found more than a couple of individuals that say you should torque to a value on this engine. I have not found any documentation on this either, other than the recommended 15lb/ft, followed by 90 degree turn, and then another 90 degree turn (all in sequence).
Finally, I come to my questions: what do you suggest that I do at this point? Can I test the torque on that bolt #1 to see if we went too far and still recover the bolts and gaskets that I have started with? Does anyone have values for what the torque should measure at after this first 90 degree turn? I would think that this information would have to be somewhere, how else would the Rover engineers know that the 90 degree turn and second 90 degree turn give the exact results that are needed? It had to have been measured at one point, right? If this is indeed the case, my hope is that we can get to these measured torque values for all bolts, and then proceed with the final 90 degree turn and still be ok.
As the person that owns the car, but also knows the least about how to repair it, this is where I stand: my fear is that I need to say no, my friends, you are wrong...then throw out more cash, remove the head bolts and gaskets (would they be bad at this point, only partway through the torquing procedure?), and worst case, start with new head gaskets and bolts and do it, once again, 100% according to the Rave Manual's suggested method. I obviously want it done right, and, though I am getting closer to when I need to finally get this done, I do not want to regret actions taken now while I'm down in my engine this far. I look forward to thoughts and suggestions...
#2
11-05-2013, 12:14 PM
Super Moderator
Having stripped out lesser bolts in the same block, I would advise what I wish I had done.... buy another set of bolts, pull those others out, and start over with correct method. The bolt set is less than a tank of gas, and it is not worth the indigestion.
The gaskets are fine. Be sure bolt holes are clean, no trash or liquid in the bottom, etc. Mark the bolts for 90 degree turns.
The gaskets are fine. Be sure bolt holes are clean, no trash or liquid in the bottom, etc. Mark the bolts for 90 degree turns.
#3
11-05-2013, 05:53 PM
Baja
Since you've only done the first 90 I'd just loosen them and start over. I doubt if they yield at all with just the first turn.
As for torque value vs torque angle, the two different methods are used for different kinds of bolts. TTY bolts like the Rover ones are designed to use the angle method and give more even clamping force. At least according to the bolting engineers at boltscience.com
Here's some more info: Talking about Torque - an article by George Lorimer
As for torque value vs torque angle, the two different methods are used for different kinds of bolts. TTY bolts like the Rover ones are designed to use the angle method and give more even clamping force. At least according to the bolting engineers at boltscience.com
Here's some more info: Talking about Torque - an article by George Lorimer
Last edited by antichrist; 11-05-2013 at 05:59 PM.
#4
11-05-2013, 06:40 PM
Recovery Vehicle
You can get one of these as well:
Great Neck/Torque angle meter (25424) | Torque Angle Tool | AutoZone.com
Great Neck/Torque angle meter (25424) | Torque Angle Tool | AutoZone.com
#6
11-06-2013, 10:20 AM
Thank you all for the feedback, I really appreciate it. Yesterday afternoon I ordered an additional set of head bolts on the suggestion of Savannah Buzz and was able to pick them up locally. They did not have Land Rover original bolts in stock, but did have Britpart brand. Have any of you had experience between these two? I know for some items it makes a difference original vs OEM, not sure on head bolts.
Right now I'm leaning to the new Britpart bolts: I too was thinking that the bolts I've been using would (hopefully) not stretch during the first 90, but maybe that $80 for brand new is worth the piece of mind?
Thanks for the suggestions on the angle gauges, have you found these give you more confidence than just marking the bolts? I do see that this way you can actually measure and don't have to keep removing the socket to check where you are at...
We also broke a 3/8" universal socket on one of the bolts near the firewall and I see these gauges are 1/2", do you guys just stick with the 1/2" tools for all of the head torquing?
I hope this isn't all annoyingly nitpicky, it just seems that this is the crux of the whole operation and I'm looking to learn. Thanks again.
Right now I'm leaning to the new Britpart bolts: I too was thinking that the bolts I've been using would (hopefully) not stretch during the first 90, but maybe that $80 for brand new is worth the piece of mind?
Thanks for the suggestions on the angle gauges, have you found these give you more confidence than just marking the bolts? I do see that this way you can actually measure and don't have to keep removing the socket to check where you are at...
We also broke a 3/8" universal socket on one of the bolts near the firewall and I see these gauges are 1/2", do you guys just stick with the 1/2" tools for all of the head torquing?
I hope this isn't all annoyingly nitpicky, it just seems that this is the crux of the whole operation and I'm looking to learn. Thanks again.
#9
11-08-2013, 10:53 AM
#10
02-26-2014, 10:29 AM
Thank you to everyone that provided advice and direction on the head gasket job for my Disco 2. We did complete the head gasket job (including new thermostat, water pump, HT leads, and spark plugs) back in December. I have since completed a brake rebuilt job and my Disco is running beautifully. Thanks again.
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