bullet proofing a D1 or D2
#91
04-12-2021 | 10:19 AM
Mudding
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 176
Likes: 53
From: Cleveland, TN
If you leave a trail indicating you are working on vehicles with the intent to sell at a profit, even selling one vehicle can get you into legal trouble, though you'd be hard to catch.
California law sucks in many ways for people wanting to make extra income. California wants you to get a license and from a LLC, as California will tax the LLC at $800 per year, even if there is zero income and it's an out of State LLC
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whowa004 (04-12-2021)
#93
04-12-2021 | 10:24 AM
we covered this earlier in this thread about the castings tolerances becoming an issue towards the end of the d2 run as LR was interested in debut of the LR3. The D2s got the worse tiered blocks as the RR P38 got the A grade blocks. They also got rid of the oil cooler for those years. The 2003 doesn't have a CDL capable t-case which is pretty useless imo.
#94
04-12-2021 | 10:28 AM
Mudding
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 176
Likes: 53
From: Cleveland, TN
Do you think this will ever sell at $19,500?
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ws...303472553.html
What about this one at $21,990?
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sf...302709912.html
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ws...303472553.html
What about this one at $21,990?
https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sf...302709912.html
It's unlikely either will sell quickly and no person into Discoveries would pay those prices.
I'd love it if they sold easily at those prices as my 2004 is cleaner, higher level trim, fewer miles, in better condition and more off rod ready, so it would be worth even more.
But those are unrealistic prices.
#95
04-12-2021 | 09:09 PM
Camel Trophy
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,734
Likes: 971
From: Southwestern Virginia
That is a simplification that is not quite as technically correct. Knocking is cause by pre-ignition *because* the fuel ignites too easily. Octane is in fact a rating of a fuel's resistance to ignition.
Furthermore, if the piece about oxygen content were true then... I'm going to give an example here.... On a carbureted application a jetting change would be required in order to run different octane fuels. It is not. I have a wideband O2 sensor in my '86 Dodge and the AFR is exactly the same whether I am running 87 or 93 octane.
AND if what you say is true (higher octane = more oxygen in the fuel) then a higher octane fuel would actually show a more lean burn, not a more rich one.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of lean and rich, and their effect on an engine. You mention "running lean" being an effect of the RV8 having trouble breathing.... But in fact the opposite would be true.
Higher octane fuel is simply not "denser". That is nothing more than marketing fabrications.
And we ARE talking math here. There are industry guidelines, and even internal company guidelines, about these ratings. They are not simply "Xlbs/hr". They are "Xlbs/hr @ Xpsi" so that ratings are uniform. Furthermore, the two can be compared because Bosch manufactures the injectors for both vehicles, therefore the rating system is the same.
If you've already got all the answers, man, then why ask the questions? There are, frankly, hundreds of years of combined experience on this forum speaking to you. Your experience in this is nil. I'm not saying that as an insult, please do not take it as such, but there are a lot of folks here trying to help you and they're pretty much all agreeing with each other. Folks with hands on experience.
I'm going to move along, now. I wish you the best of luck on your venture.
[QUOTE=discoveringlandrover;769461]I think you got that wrong. Octane is defined the fuel's resistance to knocking. But really that's "bro science"... there is a reason octane sounds like "oxygen"... higher octane fuel has more oxygen in it, which helps prevent the knocking (which is the same as detonation.) The computer (engine management) works only after the last combustion to adjust the AFR and therefore is always late to the show. The oxygen sensor is far away from the activity so it's really late. And the ping sensor is late too. That's why they can't stop engines from grenading if something goes wrong. The combustion is happening in milliseconds which is too fast to get a perfectly i deal situation... the idle AFR is not the same AFR under load/full power. Since most cars limit is the intake, it's possible that the V8 rover may have a hard time breathing and not be getting enough oxygen. This can cause the car to run lean, get hot, and detonate/ping/knock and grenade. Just because the computer is trying to do something doesn't mean it's succeeding... and obviously the ECU has not worked well for the Land Rover Discovery V8's, the ECU has just not been working based on how many blown engines.
Shell Oil confirms this about fuel octane being lean or rich. If you don't change your AFR and use a higher octane fuel you'll get a richer burn. (lean just means less fuel, rich just means more fuel) Higher octane fuel has more dense fuel, so more fuel per volume, richer.
Furthermore, if the piece about oxygen content were true then... I'm going to give an example here.... On a carbureted application a jetting change would be required in order to run different octane fuels. It is not. I have a wideband O2 sensor in my '86 Dodge and the AFR is exactly the same whether I am running 87 or 93 octane.
AND if what you say is true (higher octane = more oxygen in the fuel) then a higher octane fuel would actually show a more lean burn, not a more rich one.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of lean and rich, and their effect on an engine. You mention "running lean" being an effect of the RV8 having trouble breathing.... But in fact the opposite would be true.
Higher octane fuel is simply not "denser". That is nothing more than marketing fabrications.
And we ARE talking math here. There are industry guidelines, and even internal company guidelines, about these ratings. They are not simply "Xlbs/hr". They are "Xlbs/hr @ Xpsi" so that ratings are uniform. Furthermore, the two can be compared because Bosch manufactures the injectors for both vehicles, therefore the rating system is the same.
If you've already got all the answers, man, then why ask the questions? There are, frankly, hundreds of years of combined experience on this forum speaking to you. Your experience in this is nil. I'm not saying that as an insult, please do not take it as such, but there are a lot of folks here trying to help you and they're pretty much all agreeing with each other. Folks with hands on experience.
I'm going to move along, now. I wish you the best of luck on your venture.
[QUOTE=discoveringlandrover;769461]I think you got that wrong. Octane is defined the fuel's resistance to knocking. But really that's "bro science"... there is a reason octane sounds like "oxygen"... higher octane fuel has more oxygen in it, which helps prevent the knocking (which is the same as detonation.) The computer (engine management) works only after the last combustion to adjust the AFR and therefore is always late to the show. The oxygen sensor is far away from the activity so it's really late. And the ping sensor is late too. That's why they can't stop engines from grenading if something goes wrong. The combustion is happening in milliseconds which is too fast to get a perfectly i deal situation... the idle AFR is not the same AFR under load/full power. Since most cars limit is the intake, it's possible that the V8 rover may have a hard time breathing and not be getting enough oxygen. This can cause the car to run lean, get hot, and detonate/ping/knock and grenade. Just because the computer is trying to do something doesn't mean it's succeeding... and obviously the ECU has not worked well for the Land Rover Discovery V8's, the ECU has just not been working based on how many blown engines.
Shell Oil confirms this about fuel octane being lean or rich. If you don't change your AFR and use a higher octane fuel you'll get a richer burn. (lean just means less fuel, rich just means more fuel) Higher octane fuel has more dense fuel, so more fuel per volume, richer.
In practice it is even better than this, with ratings more like 106 lean mixture & 130 rich mixture which are far in excess of the comparable 85 - 87 octane of road fuels. To achieve this a lot of TEL is used - around 5 times the quantity that was used in the old Leaded automotive fuels.[
[url]https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/techart-18-30071600.html/QUOTE]
They call their fuels with more octane a "rich" mixture and their fuel with less octane a "lean" mixture...
And in my research, a lot of people have said that Land Rover designed the 4.6 to run lean in order to burn away more of the pollution and get better emissions. This means it burns HOTTER than the ideal situation. Lean burns hotter it also creates detonation/ping/knock.
We aren't talking about math here, we are talking about what's really going on in the engine... And we don't know (or I don't know) what the AFR programmed into the Discovery 2 4.6 engine at every RPM. Many say it was a lean tune. Do you know the AFR in the 4.6 for every RPM? Is it published somewhere or just gossip?
As to comparing lbs of fuel injectors from one car to another. I don't think that's a reliable or accurate way to do it. According to sources, one reason for a lean/hot/detonating/pinging engine can be not enough fuel. This can be caused by a weak fuel pump or faulty or weak injectors. 19 lbs type A injectors may be different than 19lbs type B injectors. I'm unaware of any international law that forces companies to calibrates injectors between engines. Is there one? If Land Rover skimped on their blocks it's possible they skimped on all kinds of stuff and used the same injectors from the small (less thirsty engines) that weren't strong enough for a bigger (more HP) engine. This is totally possible.
[url]https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/techart-18-30071600.html/QUOTE]
They call their fuels with more octane a "rich" mixture and their fuel with less octane a "lean" mixture...
And in my research, a lot of people have said that Land Rover designed the 4.6 to run lean in order to burn away more of the pollution and get better emissions. This means it burns HOTTER than the ideal situation. Lean burns hotter it also creates detonation/ping/knock.
We aren't talking about math here, we are talking about what's really going on in the engine... And we don't know (or I don't know) what the AFR programmed into the Discovery 2 4.6 engine at every RPM. Many say it was a lean tune. Do you know the AFR in the 4.6 for every RPM? Is it published somewhere or just gossip?
As to comparing lbs of fuel injectors from one car to another. I don't think that's a reliable or accurate way to do it. According to sources, one reason for a lean/hot/detonating/pinging engine can be not enough fuel. This can be caused by a weak fuel pump or faulty or weak injectors. 19 lbs type A injectors may be different than 19lbs type B injectors. I'm unaware of any international law that forces companies to calibrates injectors between engines. Is there one? If Land Rover skimped on their blocks it's possible they skimped on all kinds of stuff and used the same injectors from the small (less thirsty engines) that weren't strong enough for a bigger (more HP) engine. This is totally possible.
#97
04-12-2021 | 09:38 PM
Thread Starter
|
Three Wheeling
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 83
Likes: 1
Saying it's stock except for the billet block is funny, because it's the billet block that makes it custom.
Over the decades I've heard conflicting info on how worn the engine toweling is, from LR didn't give a crap to the auctioned tooling, after production was over, was new.
But it doesn't matter, as a general rule, we are not trying to get more HP out of our vehicles but to make the more reliable, especially on when off road. That's where experience comes in because people have seen failures and how the combine to cause other issues.
There are known weak parts on Discoveries, front drive shaft, standard cooling layout, throttle heater plate (that damn, useless outside of freezing Temps, $30 part has likely caused more severe issues than any, as it leaks and goes unnoticed and can cause coolant clogs in the block)
Fortunately, there is now plenty of information and availablity of parts to fix all these weak areas and make a very reliable vehicle.
People new to Discoveries may bring some outside the box thinking, but the experienced people have a wealth of knowledge gained by witnessing and fixing issues. Trust me, when I first purchased my 2004 Discovery in 2004, I had no idea that breather tubes could come loose and melt. Nobody knew that back then, but it happens now.
Over the decades I've heard conflicting info on how worn the engine toweling is, from LR didn't give a crap to the auctioned tooling, after production was over, was new.
But it doesn't matter, as a general rule, we are not trying to get more HP out of our vehicles but to make the more reliable, especially on when off road. That's where experience comes in because people have seen failures and how the combine to cause other issues.
There are known weak parts on Discoveries, front drive shaft, standard cooling layout, throttle heater plate (that damn, useless outside of freezing Temps, $30 part has likely caused more severe issues than any, as it leaks and goes unnoticed and can cause coolant clogs in the block)
Fortunately, there is now plenty of information and availablity of parts to fix all these weak areas and make a very reliable vehicle.
People new to Discoveries may bring some outside the box thinking, but the experienced people have a wealth of knowledge gained by witnessing and fixing issues. Trust me, when I first purchased my 2004 Discovery in 2004, I had no idea that breather tubes could come loose and melt. Nobody knew that back then, but it happens now.
I hear you. It's a stock block size and design last time I talked to the engine builder... they still blow a lot of head gaskets due to block flex at high HP and suggested modifying the block to fix that and they don't want to do that, it would be too much. They just use most everything stock size when carving out the engine, as far as I know. I had a few discussions with the engine builder.
High HP and reliability are the same thing because you have to be reliable to run high HP... even if they last just for 1 lap, the same principles apply. That's why the best cars are the ones that come from a race tested design. If it can race 24 hours of Le Mans it can probably hold up as a daily driver. (analogy doesn't always apply)
#98
04-12-2021 | 09:40 PM
Thread Starter
|
Three Wheeling
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 83
Likes: 1
#99
04-12-2021 | 10:05 PM
Thread Starter
|
Three Wheeling
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 83
Likes: 1
That is a simplification that is not quite as technically correct. Knocking is cause by pre-ignition *because* the fuel ignites too easily. Octane is in fact a rating of a fuel's resistance to ignition.
Furthermore, if the piece about oxygen content were true then... I'm going to give an example here.... On a carbureted application a jetting change would be required in order to run different octane fuels. It is not. I have a wideband O2 sensor in my '86 Dodge and the AFR is exactly the same whether I am running 87 or 93 octane.
AND if what you say is true (higher octane = more oxygen in the fuel) then a higher octane fuel would actually show a more lean burn, not a more rich one.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of lean and rich, and their effect on an engine. You mention "running lean" being an effect of the RV8 having trouble breathing.... But in fact the opposite would be true.
Higher octane fuel is simply not "denser". That is nothing more than marketing fabrications.
And we ARE talking math here. There are industry guidelines, and even internal company guidelines, about these ratings. They are not simply "Xlbs/hr". They are "Xlbs/hr @ Xpsi" so that ratings are uniform. Furthermore, the two can be compared because Bosch manufactures the injectors for both vehicles, therefore the rating system is the same.
If you've already got all the answers, man, then why ask the questions? There are, frankly, hundreds of years of combined experience on this forum speaking to you. Your experience in this is nil. I'm not saying that as an insult, please do not take it as such, but there are a lot of folks here trying to help you and they're pretty much all agreeing with each other. Folks with hands on experience.
I'm going to move along, now. I wish you the best of luck on your venture.
I'm no engine building expert, but a basic university education and Google tells me you are wrong about most of what you said. Not sure where you are getting that. I'll listen to the race experts with big companies and Shell Oil over someone on a web forum. No offense intended.
Octane literally means the amount of oxygen in the fuel mixture. Higher octane fuel has more oxygen. Lean conditions are when there is less oxygen and the fuel is all burned up, the fuel actually cools the process. A rich condition is when there is more fuel. The definition of octane is the rating of knock prevention. Knock/ping/detonation are all the same thing. But I researched a little more and some use the word "ignite." I guess that's what you meant by ignition. But that's not really what octane means. Octane is the level of oxygen in the fuel. They used to have lead in the fuel because lead produced lead-oxide in the cylinder which contains oxygen to slow down the burning. I'm not quite sure why oxygen slows the burning, but it does according to sources. The oxygen makes it richer. If the ECU doesn't compensate (which it doesn't always do, hence why engines break all the time) you can theoretically increase the air part of the AFR by adding higher octane fuel (maybe by just a little.) Intakes and the cylinder head are one of the main limits in engine power and this is because they usually can't bring in enough air for big horsepower. That's why racers and modders port the heads of their engines, to increase the air. This air allows you to run more pressure without detonating/grenading your high HP engine. A lean (not enough oxygen not enough octane) will cause detonation, as will a too low AFR. This is just the basics of engines, nothing controversial about what I'm saying. Race fuel is used to get more HP because they can use the higher octane fuel (with lead) in high compression, high pressure boosted engines to withstand high power without detonating (blowing up the engine.)
Examples:
...
Methanol has oxygen in the fuel while traditional gasoline does not. As such, methanol can detonate with less air in the mix than gasoline. An air/fuel weight-ratio of 8-to-1 would be overly rich for gasoline and not detonate but could detonate with methanol fuel. That threshold changes with oxygen variations in the air from air density changes.
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...-applications/
Furthermore, if the piece about oxygen content were true then... I'm going to give an example here.... On a carbureted application a jetting change would be required in order to run different octane fuels. It is not. I have a wideband O2 sensor in my '86 Dodge and the AFR is exactly the same whether I am running 87 or 93 octane.
AND if what you say is true (higher octane = more oxygen in the fuel) then a higher octane fuel would actually show a more lean burn, not a more rich one.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of lean and rich, and their effect on an engine. You mention "running lean" being an effect of the RV8 having trouble breathing.... But in fact the opposite would be true.
Higher octane fuel is simply not "denser". That is nothing more than marketing fabrications.
And we ARE talking math here. There are industry guidelines, and even internal company guidelines, about these ratings. They are not simply "Xlbs/hr". They are "Xlbs/hr @ Xpsi" so that ratings are uniform. Furthermore, the two can be compared because Bosch manufactures the injectors for both vehicles, therefore the rating system is the same.
If you've already got all the answers, man, then why ask the questions? There are, frankly, hundreds of years of combined experience on this forum speaking to you. Your experience in this is nil. I'm not saying that as an insult, please do not take it as such, but there are a lot of folks here trying to help you and they're pretty much all agreeing with each other. Folks with hands on experience.
I'm going to move along, now. I wish you the best of luck on your venture.
I think you got that wrong. Octane is defined the fuel's resistance to knocking. But really that's "bro science"... there is a reason octane sounds like "oxygen"... higher octane fuel has more oxygen in it, which helps prevent the knocking (which is the same as detonation.) The computer (engine management) works only after the last combustion to adjust the AFR and therefore is always late to the show. The oxygen sensor is far away from the activity so it's really late. And the ping sensor is late too. That's why they can't stop engines from grenading if something goes wrong. The combustion is happening in milliseconds which is too fast to get a perfectly i deal situation... the idle AFR is not the same AFR under load/full power. Since most cars limit is the intake, it's possible that the V8 rover may have a hard time breathing and not be getting enough oxygen. This can cause the car to run lean, get hot, and detonate/ping/knock and grenade. Just because the computer is trying to do something doesn't mean it's succeeding... and obviously the ECU has not worked well for the Land Rover Discovery V8's, the ECU has just not been working based on how many blown engines.
Shell Oil confirms this about fuel octane being lean or rich. If you don't change your AFR and use a higher octane fuel you'll get a richer burn. (lean just means less fuel, rich just means more fuel) Higher octane fuel has more dense fuel, so more fuel per volume, richer.
Shell Oil confirms this about fuel octane being lean or rich. If you don't change your AFR and use a higher octane fuel you'll get a richer burn. (lean just means less fuel, rich just means more fuel) Higher octane fuel has more dense fuel, so more fuel per volume, richer.
Octane literally means the amount of oxygen in the fuel mixture. Higher octane fuel has more oxygen. Lean conditions are when there is less oxygen and the fuel is all burned up, the fuel actually cools the process. A rich condition is when there is more fuel. The definition of octane is the rating of knock prevention. Knock/ping/detonation are all the same thing. But I researched a little more and some use the word "ignite." I guess that's what you meant by ignition. But that's not really what octane means. Octane is the level of oxygen in the fuel. They used to have lead in the fuel because lead produced lead-oxide in the cylinder which contains oxygen to slow down the burning. I'm not quite sure why oxygen slows the burning, but it does according to sources. The oxygen makes it richer. If the ECU doesn't compensate (which it doesn't always do, hence why engines break all the time) you can theoretically increase the air part of the AFR by adding higher octane fuel (maybe by just a little.) Intakes and the cylinder head are one of the main limits in engine power and this is because they usually can't bring in enough air for big horsepower. That's why racers and modders port the heads of their engines, to increase the air. This air allows you to run more pressure without detonating/grenading your high HP engine. A lean (not enough oxygen not enough octane) will cause detonation, as will a too low AFR. This is just the basics of engines, nothing controversial about what I'm saying. Race fuel is used to get more HP because they can use the higher octane fuel (with lead) in high compression, high pressure boosted engines to withstand high power without detonating (blowing up the engine.)
Examples:
For example, during the late ’70s and ’80s, pinging during normal operation was common with carbureted engines. Certain intake manifold design compromises combined with smog equipment caused lean fuel mixtures that burned outside of the controlled flame front from the spark plug.
Methanol has oxygen in the fuel while traditional gasoline does not. As such, methanol can detonate with less air in the mix than gasoline. An air/fuel weight-ratio of 8-to-1 would be overly rich for gasoline and not detonate but could detonate with methanol fuel. That threshold changes with oxygen variations in the air from air density changes.
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...-applications/
There are a lot of ways to cause engine damage and a lot of ways to create a lean knocking/detonating situation. Heat, pressure, and fuel octane have as much to do with getting an engine reliable as does the tune that the computer has for the AFR because the engine management computers always act after the combustion happens. I may have jumped around a lot but I'm now thinking that the unreliability and cracking/porosity was/is due to too much engine heat from a bad tune. I think that Land Rover was trying to squeeze more HP/TQ out of an engine at the same time trying to get lower emissions, so they cut corners. I'm now going to research things that make this engine hot and lean like the water pump (is it strong enough), the fuel injectors (do they clog easily are they strong enough are they same as used in smaller/less HP engines), the intake and air filters, the radiator and rest of cooling system... because once and engine gets too hot it goes through a chemical change to the crystalline structure of the aluminum and can literally never come back to normal, so it only takes one overheating incident to ruin the engine like that.
I also don't think that the cylinder wall will crack from shear force without cracking the liner that protects it. The force would break the more brittle cast iron liners first, as I see it now. I reserve the right to change my mind as I learn more.
I think the Discovery motor can be made 100% as reliable as any engine, but only if correct concepts are applied and root causes found and sorted out. Just my thoughts, nothing personal meant toward anyone.
#100
04-12-2021 | 10:14 PM
Thread Starter
|
Three Wheeling
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 83
Likes: 1
[QUOTE=Alex_M;769581]That is a simplification that is not quite as technically correct. Knocking is cause by pre-ignition *because* the fuel ignites too easily. Octane is in fact a rating of a fuel's resistance to ignition.
Furthermore, if the piece about oxygen content were true then... I'm going to give an example here.... On a carbureted application a jetting change would be required in order to run different octane fuels. It is not. I have a wideband O2 sensor in my '86 Dodge and the AFR is exactly the same whether I am running 87 or 93 octane.
AND if what you say is true (higher octane = more oxygen in the fuel) then a higher octane fuel would actually show a more lean burn, not a more rich one.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of lean and rich, and their effect on an engine. You mention "running lean" being an effect of the RV8 having trouble breathing.... But in fact the opposite would be true.
Higher octane fuel is simply not "denser". That is nothing more than marketing fabrications.
And we ARE talking math here. There are industry guidelines, and even internal company guidelines, about these ratings. They are not simply "Xlbs/hr". They are "Xlbs/hr @ Xpsi" so that ratings are uniform. Furthermore, the two can be compared because Bosch manufactures the injectors for both vehicles, therefore the rating system is the same.
If you've already got all the answers, man, then why ask the questions? There are, frankly, hundreds of years of combined experience on this forum speaking to you. Your experience in this is nil. I'm not saying that as an insult, please do not take it as such, but there are a lot of folks here trying to help you and they're pretty much all agreeing with each other. Folks with hands on experience.
I'm going to move along, now. I wish you the best of luck on your venture.
After reading more and understanding what you mean by ignition, I think we are saying the same thing. But higher octane fuel is more dense. It also has a higher specific gravity, which is just the density compared to water. It's about mass not weight. In your words higher octane fuel resists ignition because it has more oxygen and is also called rich or richer than fuel with less oxygen which is called lean. I still think you are wrong about the stoich AFR... I don't think that anyone knows the actual AFR for every RPM from a stock Discovery 2, I have seen no proof that it's ideal, but many have said the computer makes it run lean to burn up more of the pollution and get better emissions. I think it may be just this. Land Rover broke their own engines with a bad tune just to pass emissions. I think that's it. Fix the tune and a brand new engine with liners will not get too hot and will be reliable. That's why the smaller engines were more reliable because Land Rover wasn't trying to meet unrealistic HP and emissions goals for those motors. I think modern engine builders with the big bores and strokers can make a reliable engine because they have better tech than 10-20 years ago and better tunes (if they are good tuners), but only if they start with a brand new block that hasn't been overheated even once.
I've even seen modern Jeeps with turbo kits blow up on the user when they were driving through the hot desert at high elevation because the computer didn't adjust for ambient temperature so the tune was unable to know it was hot outside and the elevation and the tune was trying to get too much HP/TQ and created too much pressure and boom. This is similar to what Land Rover was trying to do with the 4.6 discovery by trying to get emissions and more hp using basically the same old engine parts.
Furthermore, if the piece about oxygen content were true then... I'm going to give an example here.... On a carbureted application a jetting change would be required in order to run different octane fuels. It is not. I have a wideband O2 sensor in my '86 Dodge and the AFR is exactly the same whether I am running 87 or 93 octane.
AND if what you say is true (higher octane = more oxygen in the fuel) then a higher octane fuel would actually show a more lean burn, not a more rich one.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of lean and rich, and their effect on an engine. You mention "running lean" being an effect of the RV8 having trouble breathing.... But in fact the opposite would be true.
Higher octane fuel is simply not "denser". That is nothing more than marketing fabrications.
And we ARE talking math here. There are industry guidelines, and even internal company guidelines, about these ratings. They are not simply "Xlbs/hr". They are "Xlbs/hr @ Xpsi" so that ratings are uniform. Furthermore, the two can be compared because Bosch manufactures the injectors for both vehicles, therefore the rating system is the same.
If you've already got all the answers, man, then why ask the questions? There are, frankly, hundreds of years of combined experience on this forum speaking to you. Your experience in this is nil. I'm not saying that as an insult, please do not take it as such, but there are a lot of folks here trying to help you and they're pretty much all agreeing with each other. Folks with hands on experience.
I'm going to move along, now. I wish you the best of luck on your venture.
I think you got that wrong. Octane is defined the fuel's resistance to knocking. But really that's "bro science"... there is a reason octane sounds like "oxygen"... higher octane fuel has more oxygen in it, which helps prevent the knocking (which is the same as detonation.) The computer (engine management) works only after the last combustion to adjust the AFR and therefore is always late to the show. The oxygen sensor is far away from the activity so it's really late. And the ping sensor is late too. That's why they can't stop engines from grenading if something goes wrong. The combustion is happening in milliseconds which is too fast to get a perfectly i deal situation... the idle AFR is not the same AFR under load/full power. Since most cars limit is the intake, it's possible that the V8 rover may have a hard time breathing and not be getting enough oxygen. This can cause the car to run lean, get hot, and detonate/ping/knock and grenade. Just because the computer is trying to do something doesn't mean it's succeeding... and obviously the ECU has not worked well for the Land Rover Discovery V8's, the ECU has just not been working based on how many blown engines.
Shell Oil confirms this about fuel octane being lean or rich. If you don't change your AFR and use a higher octane fuel you'll get a richer burn. (lean just means less fuel, rich just means more fuel) Higher octane fuel has more dense fuel, so more fuel per volume, richer.
Shell Oil confirms this about fuel octane being lean or rich. If you don't change your AFR and use a higher octane fuel you'll get a richer burn. (lean just means less fuel, rich just means more fuel) Higher octane fuel has more dense fuel, so more fuel per volume, richer.
After reading more and understanding what you mean by ignition, I think we are saying the same thing. But higher octane fuel is more dense. It also has a higher specific gravity, which is just the density compared to water. It's about mass not weight. In your words higher octane fuel resists ignition because it has more oxygen and is also called rich or richer than fuel with less oxygen which is called lean. I still think you are wrong about the stoich AFR... I don't think that anyone knows the actual AFR for every RPM from a stock Discovery 2, I have seen no proof that it's ideal, but many have said the computer makes it run lean to burn up more of the pollution and get better emissions. I think it may be just this. Land Rover broke their own engines with a bad tune just to pass emissions. I think that's it. Fix the tune and a brand new engine with liners will not get too hot and will be reliable. That's why the smaller engines were more reliable because Land Rover wasn't trying to meet unrealistic HP and emissions goals for those motors. I think modern engine builders with the big bores and strokers can make a reliable engine because they have better tech than 10-20 years ago and better tunes (if they are good tuners), but only if they start with a brand new block that hasn't been overheated even once.
I've even seen modern Jeeps with turbo kits blow up on the user when they were driving through the hot desert at high elevation because the computer didn't adjust for ambient temperature so the tune was unable to know it was hot outside and the elevation and the tune was trying to get too much HP/TQ and created too much pressure and boom. This is similar to what Land Rover was trying to do with the 4.6 discovery by trying to get emissions and more hp using basically the same old engine parts.