I most definitely did not take away from the second article in Psychology Today, an endorsement of religion as a means to reduce depression. In fact, more questions about what spirituality and religion are and how to quantify them seemed to be the most salient point of the article.

"The study was undertaken as many previous studies covering thousands of people seemed to show that the more religious someone reported him or herself to be, the less likely that person was to be depressed. In these cross-sectional studies, there can be significant association bias. For example, a deep depression could affect the spirituality of the suffering individual, and perhaps someone in a religious community where mental illness is not accepted would be less likely to report being depressed. On the other hand, many people seek counseling from clergy members, and the ready availability in religious populations may act as a preventative measure. Longer term data would be important to sort out some of the details. "

"a thicker cortex seemed to be protective against depression risk, and the thinner cortex was more of a risk factor in those who had a family history of depression."

I came away with the impression that we are unable, due to the small study group, to determine what exactly what was going on. Was someone more likely to be religious or meditate because of a thicker frontal lobe or was the frontal lobe thickened by the repetitive actions found in pray and meditation. It was a chicken and egg question that we may, at some point in the future figure out but for now can only speculate.

 

A few pages back I was mentioning the Texas Board of Education and it's efforts, thanks to their immense buying power, to rewrite school textbooks to reflect a particularly conservative religious bias. While I know that an opinion piece in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution may not be the definitive source for an expose, there's certainly enough here to see why we all should be concerned when the Christian Taliban begin monkeying with the education of future generations of Americans.

From Texas, the bellwether of conservative thought | Jay Bookman | www.ajc.com

 

Yes, I've been reading your links Paul. To me the statement 'human like or human level intelligence' implies a level of consciousness - something that artificial intelligence does not have. And I realize Offroad that algorithms are highly advanced but a computer cannot feel like a human can (as evidenced in a cheesy movie about love (titled Alchemy) that I watched the other night) - I really love Tom Cavanagh .

I found the last few paragraphs of the Psychology Today article intriguing, more so the sentence 'In healthy individuals, stimulating certain cortical areas with transcranial magnets evoked spiritual feelings'. The first question that popped into my mind (and you somewhat addressed this in your last post) is 'what is the definition of a spiritual feeling?' Do we all have varying definitions of spirituality? I'd have to think 'yes' but to what degree do they differ? I've had many a conversation with a colleague of mine this past year regarding the topic and I think the general consensus between us is that experiences of 'feelings and/or occurrences' that aren't from this world could be considered a spiritual indication. It's a moment of 'you just know'....not necessarily an epiphany but rather something you just cannot explain - whether it be paranormal or something from one of your senses. A recurring theme discussed by many individuals who have described experiencing a 'spiritual awakening' is an olfactory experience that cannot be explained. How do the frontal lobes play into a sense of smell alerting our bodies of danger? (No, I don't mean smelling smoke, etc. - more of an odor that no one can explain but it permeates the area where you are and is constant whenever your thought pattern heads in a certain direction). What about a sensation that two people feel when walking past a stranger in a restaurant? The sensation that neither of you discussed until you were out on the sidewalk of a busy street alone and one of you said to the other 'did you feel that?' 'Yeah, I did - it felt like I just took a warm bath and am relaxed from head to toe'. 'Me too - same exact feeling..where was that guy from?..' Are these spiritual feelings? How does the mind play into that? How about coincidences of circumstances? A therapist that receives numerous phone messages on her personal home phone answering system from a complete stranger, only to have that stranger come into her office and sit before her the next week and tell her how he has been calling a woman that he met in a bar but she never returns his calls? The story becomes more and more familiar as the stranger talks and finally the therapist states 'what is the phone number that you've been calling?' He pulls out a piece of paper and as he recites the number so does the therapist. 'How did you know that was the number I've been calling?' 'Because it's mine and you've been calling me...' stated the therapist. They had never met before that day. Is that a spiritual feeling? Was the therapist there to help this person in what he deemed as a crisis (wanting his handcuffs back) and wondering why this woman wasn't returning his phone calls? How do the frontal lobes play into that occurrence?

I don't know if I'd have a different take on things today if I was forced to go to Church every Sunday as a child. My parents liked to sleep in on their weekends (as do I) and I must have been intrigued by the neighbors attending Sunday school because I asked my parents for permission to attend their services as their guest. I probably attended for a couple of months but it ended abruptly after a little boy stole my purse while we were singing hymns in class. The purse was a beaded clutch with a little bird on the front and if one was to open the clasp they would have found 3 or 4 little polished mountain stones that my Uncle from Colorado had given to my sister and me when home for a visit. I remember it as if it was yesterday - I probably wasn't much of 6 years of age. We were asked to stand up and sing as a group and when we did so I heard my chair being scraped along the tile floor. I turned around and a little boy had a smile on his face - I didn't think much of it but later realized that he had stolen my purse and there was no way to prove it. I later received my purse back but the little stones I had cherished were gone. Not trying to sound materialistic here but merely state that it had turned me off from Church from that moment on. How could people go to Church and preach the gospel of the Lord and steal from their neighbor? How could they go to Church and socialize and then come home and shoot ducks on their dock? Shoot them dead? More and more of this became apparent to me as I grew older and I realized that I was happier being outside with nature and feeling spiritual within myself than I ever would be in a setting with others listening to someone tell me what was right from wrong. Does anyone think that atheism could be a factor of feeling wronged in life or perhaps having religion crammed down your throat while growing up? I sometimes wonder if my husband is the only self-proclaimed atheist in a Christian based family because of what he experienced when he was battling cancer. He didn't survive unscathed and I wonder if it affected his spirituality? It's hard to say why some have feelings of spirituality and others do not.

I will gladly send you that book Offroad - just let me know where to send it when you get a chance. The author is British and he loves to make fun of the French

 

Paul, I believe the tampering and indoctrination of the very young is worldwide. In some countries it's the Christian Taliban at play and in others it's a more radical and subversive pseudo political religious force. One can teach and identify the tenets of right from wrong without any religious bias as KD has just identified above. The rights and wrongs are intrinsic in everyone from a young age without the other mindbending clutter. I have a simple take on life "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself" which embraces all crimes and adverse social behaviour. The problem being is that people opt out by saying they were 'forced' by circumstances, it is traditional, they heard voices yeah, yeah yeah, right. I often blame authorities for the mamby pamby culture and the lawyers for capitalising on unacceptable acts or behaviour when trying to justify these in law. Take today and Oscar Pistorious, he committed murder and everyone knows it BUT he has got away with it as culpable homicide because he's been a revered figure in SA but he's now a broken person and will get a significant sentence and now a career thrown away because he had a vicious temper and no self control. I believe he had a chip on his shoulder and it manifested in murder. Take these murders in the middle east by fanatics, I ask 'why', what have these people done to deserve such an horrific end, they were totally innocent as were the victims of 9/11, what is going wrong with peoples minds and there lack of humanity to others and in fact everything that exists. It beggars belief.

 

That whole Texas Board of Education crap I never got, how does a few people on a Board in the middle of the bible belt decide what books will and will not be viewed or read in public schools.

 

Sadly, Jim, they are elected. The entire controversy reached its turning point back in '07 when the woman who was in charge of the science curricula quit under pressure. She was balking at attempts by newly elected members of the board to infuse more "Intelligent Design" into the science program. Once she was gone the board went wild with its attempts (some more successful than others) at rewriting of textbooks. There are a couple of members who are as crazy in a fundamentalist way as any of the Mullah's we shake our heads over in the Middle East. I site Don McLeroy. I've been following his activities on a cite called Little Green Footballs for years. His activity was also featured in a PBS documentary a few years ago as well. The guys a ****ing nutjob and shouldn't be anywhere near a school let alone messing with how kids are educated.

You know, we live in states (you in MA and me in CT) where it's expensive and people like to bitch and moan about the cost of living and taxes and all the rest but at least we can stand proud in the knowledge that our education systems produce the best educated children in the nation. It's hard not to think that these attempts by the Texas BOE to mess with education are tantamount to child abuse. Those being educated in most of these Bible thumping states are at a distinct disadvantage in a more and more competitive world. This is not opinion, this is a statistical fact.

 

Of course the notion of indoctrination is world wide. However, our nations, the US and UK are among the most advanced and sophisticated societies in the world. If we allow our children to be feed religious disinformation (especially with our Constitutions clear direction ((far clearer than our Second Amendment)) for separation of Church and State) we only harm ourselves and our future (the whole point of this thread as I recall).

It's one thing, however disturbing, to read about the insanity of anti LGBT laws in Uganda (promoted and financed by American religious fundamentalists) but quite another to see it here in the US. We should know better and be better. Not only are these ploys by the American Taliban reprehensible but they are embarrassing for a modern, first world country.

Worst of all, the vast majority of Americans, you know, the ones who know the line up of their favorite sports team but not the name of their elected representative in Congress, are utterly unaware that the sort of stuff going on in Texas is even happening. We have a responsibility to ourselves, our children and the rest of the world, as leaders to remain vigilant against intellectual retrenchment. Otherwise, our future will be worse than Orwell's "1984."

I mentioned to you in a PM that the only reason I get involved with threads like this is not to convince people who disagree with me. That, for the most part is futile. It's my hope that, in the course of bringing up issues like what's going on in Texas, I can get one of the many people who read but don't post to threads like this, interested enough that they begin to educate themselves about the insanity with fundamentalism right here in the US. The threat fundamentalism may pose to their own child's education.

 

KD, just give science time and research the notion of Singularity a bit more. Look into computer theory and I think you'll see that we are closer to achieving a level of sentience in silicone that would shock you.

 

Of course we do, it's the nature of language. Let's face it, when homosapiens first began to speak it was, most likely out of a need for survival. "Hey look out there's a bear behind you" or something like that. Over time, language became more abstract. How do you define love and is your definition the same as another's? Bear, we can point to one and agree. Spirituality is more difficult. However, in these sorts of tests, there is a degree of agreement over what the brain scans of the frontal lobe may look like when one is experiencing a transcendent moment. It's from that point that attempts are made to quantify these experiences. We are not there yet but we are closing in.

 

This is one wild paragraph, the likes of which it would probably take more time, energy or interest than I have to respond. It's a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" kind of post filled with varying levels of anecdote, heresay and hokum. I really don't quite get your point and I'm sorry but tales like the one you mention of the therapist just give me a crushing headache. A great story that makes me want to race to Snopes.com.