Possibly a downward spiral .......... who knows
#41
11-22-2016 | 04:47 PM
TReK
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,306
Likes: 163
From: CT
We're dropping cable at the end of the month but Charter provides our internet so we'll still be paying them for something. We've been streaming everything in the mid '00's and bought AppleTV for accessing our media when it first came out in '07. When we started up with cable last spring we were appalled at all the advertising. I think we'll go back to MLBTv.com next spring.
#42
11-22-2016 | 05:17 PM
TReK
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,306
Likes: 163
From: CT
Oh, and Charlie, I have to mention two things you said in one of your replies. The first was that National Socialism and the **** party were socialists. The fact is that their "brand" of socialism, if you will, was Fascism. Fascism and socialism, especially when the two are compared are not the same.
That leads me to the other comment that you made about socialism being something of a bad word in the US. It's a shame because, in reality, many elements of socialism exist in our day to day existence. However, over the years, the notion that socialism = communism and that both are evil has been drummed into many people's heads. In reality, socialism can be a benign force. Take for example your fire department, police or even the military. They all are classic examples of socialism. Social democracies in parts of Northern Europe have some of the best educated, healthiest people with the greatest level of contentment in the world.
From a purely academic perspective, there has never been a true communist state because anyone familiar with Marx and Engels and their Communist Manifesto would know that one of the essentials for achieving true communism would be the "withering" away of that state. (In strict interpretation of the Manifesto, socialism would only exist temprorarily, until the state is dismantled). So, communism is not unlike libertarianism in that it's a wonderful ism to theorize about but neither have ever existed in their pure state nor ever will.
That leads me to the other comment that you made about socialism being something of a bad word in the US. It's a shame because, in reality, many elements of socialism exist in our day to day existence. However, over the years, the notion that socialism = communism and that both are evil has been drummed into many people's heads. In reality, socialism can be a benign force. Take for example your fire department, police or even the military. They all are classic examples of socialism. Social democracies in parts of Northern Europe have some of the best educated, healthiest people with the greatest level of contentment in the world.
From a purely academic perspective, there has never been a true communist state because anyone familiar with Marx and Engels and their Communist Manifesto would know that one of the essentials for achieving true communism would be the "withering" away of that state. (In strict interpretation of the Manifesto, socialism would only exist temprorarily, until the state is dismantled). So, communism is not unlike libertarianism in that it's a wonderful ism to theorize about but neither have ever existed in their pure state nor ever will.
#43
11-22-2016 | 06:53 PM
TReK
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,306
Likes: 163
From: CT
Charlie, I just came across this article on Open Culture, one of my favorite websites. It's the author Umberto Eco talking about fascism.
Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism | Open Culture
"The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The **** gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the **** or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”"
Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism | Open Culture
"The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The **** gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the **** or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”"
Last edited by Paul Grant; 11-22-2016 at 07:06 PM.
#46
11-23-2016 | 12:54 PM
Thread Starter
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Baja
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,845
Likes: 368
From: Near Bordeaux, France
I'm with the opinions of Paul Grant on this. As far as the British empire, WW1 just finsihed off the terminal decline hence after WW1 the independence and dissolution of the empire as we knew it. Then came WW2 which nearly crippled the British both financially and morally however it was the final nail in the coffin with the huge ensuing debts.
The British were in a parlous state in manufacturing, commerce and socially during the 60's and 70's but thought the EEC would provide them with the necessary markets and inroads for recovery, which it did over the prevailing 40+ years but the rank and file wanted more in 2016, they wanted to make a 'statement' against the establishment, so they voted to leave the EU for all the wrong reasons and now they will have to live with the Brexit fallout for an awfully long time. It's a similar case IMO in the US, the people wanted a 'voice' against the establishment so they voted Trump in thinking his outrageous claims and rhetoric would come true, well IMO it's all talk but time will tell. Act in haste and repent at leisure.
What is worrying is that both in the UK and US many have changed their lifelong allegiances often rapidly switching from left Labour politics to right UKIP, this has shades of Hitler and the ***** and blindly following the 'Messiah' who will 'make them great again', now that is worrying as no one person can turn around any nation in the modern era not even the Trumps or Farages and IMO it is fruitless and naive expecting them to as they are only interested in themselves and money as are the majority of politicians.
Politics and voters also reminds me of scams and scammers, one asks "why do so many fall for scams", one or two reasons spring to mind IMO, greed and stupidity in many cases and they never learn from their mistakes, to me it always reminds me of a gullible electorate who believe all they hear and hope/pray for something better in life. Well, IMO, there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' and the only person who can improve ones 'lot' is them, no-one else.
The British were in a parlous state in manufacturing, commerce and socially during the 60's and 70's but thought the EEC would provide them with the necessary markets and inroads for recovery, which it did over the prevailing 40+ years but the rank and file wanted more in 2016, they wanted to make a 'statement' against the establishment, so they voted to leave the EU for all the wrong reasons and now they will have to live with the Brexit fallout for an awfully long time. It's a similar case IMO in the US, the people wanted a 'voice' against the establishment so they voted Trump in thinking his outrageous claims and rhetoric would come true, well IMO it's all talk but time will tell. Act in haste and repent at leisure.
What is worrying is that both in the UK and US many have changed their lifelong allegiances often rapidly switching from left Labour politics to right UKIP, this has shades of Hitler and the ***** and blindly following the 'Messiah' who will 'make them great again', now that is worrying as no one person can turn around any nation in the modern era not even the Trumps or Farages and IMO it is fruitless and naive expecting them to as they are only interested in themselves and money as are the majority of politicians.
Politics and voters also reminds me of scams and scammers, one asks "why do so many fall for scams", one or two reasons spring to mind IMO, greed and stupidity in many cases and they never learn from their mistakes, to me it always reminds me of a gullible electorate who believe all they hear and hope/pray for something better in life. Well, IMO, there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' and the only person who can improve ones 'lot' is them, no-one else.
#47
11-23-2016 | 01:14 PM
Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 246
From: Longview, Texas
Oh, and Charlie, I have to mention two things you said in one of your replies. The first was that National Socialism and the **** party were socialists. The fact is that their "brand" of socialism, if you will, was Fascism. Fascism and socialism, especially when the two are compared are not the same.
I agree, they are not the same. Hitler essentially coopted the socialist movement in Germany for his own ends, which is a common end to socialism. In my view, socialism is , at its core, an economic system that bleeds into politics and government. But the end of socialist experiments is never happy. The two likely outcomes are economic collapse (because socialism denudes individuals of the desire for personal achievement and success) or fascsism/dictatorship (where the wrong person is at the right place to harness the discontent that socialism eventually breeds--usually by blaming an outside source). Socialist systems NEVER result in true worker control of their market. The bleed into government and politics results in someone, or some group, making decisions. It is a utopian fantasy. Socialism is also the basis for Marxism, and is the antithesis of capitalism. Again, all in MY view. I am not telling anyone what to think. Bernie Sanders seemed to understand the economic versus political aspects of socialism when he coined the term "democratic socialist." What a farce. Hitler was a socialist fascist and a DEVIL.
That leads me to the other comment that you made about socialism being something of a bad word in the US. It's a shame because, in reality, many elements of socialism exist in our day to day existence. However, over the years, the notion that socialism = communism and that both are evil has been drummed into many people's heads. In reality, socialism can be a benign force. Take for example your fire department, police or even the military. They all are classic examples of socialism. Social democracies in parts of Northern Europe have some of the best educated, healthiest people with the greatest level of contentment in the world.
Paul, I don't agree that concerted action and concern for your fellow man are exclusive socialist characteristics.
From a purely academic perspective, there has never been a true communist state because anyone familiar with Marx and Engels and their Communist Manifesto would know that one of the essentials for achieving true communism would be the "withering" away of that state. (In strict interpretation of the Manifesto, socialism would only exist temprorarily, until the state is dismantled). So, communism is not unlike libertarianism in that it's a wonderful ism to theorize about but neither have ever existed in their pure state nor ever will.
I agree with all of that.
I agree, they are not the same. Hitler essentially coopted the socialist movement in Germany for his own ends, which is a common end to socialism. In my view, socialism is , at its core, an economic system that bleeds into politics and government. But the end of socialist experiments is never happy. The two likely outcomes are economic collapse (because socialism denudes individuals of the desire for personal achievement and success) or fascsism/dictatorship (where the wrong person is at the right place to harness the discontent that socialism eventually breeds--usually by blaming an outside source). Socialist systems NEVER result in true worker control of their market. The bleed into government and politics results in someone, or some group, making decisions. It is a utopian fantasy. Socialism is also the basis for Marxism, and is the antithesis of capitalism. Again, all in MY view. I am not telling anyone what to think. Bernie Sanders seemed to understand the economic versus political aspects of socialism when he coined the term "democratic socialist." What a farce. Hitler was a socialist fascist and a DEVIL.
That leads me to the other comment that you made about socialism being something of a bad word in the US. It's a shame because, in reality, many elements of socialism exist in our day to day existence. However, over the years, the notion that socialism = communism and that both are evil has been drummed into many people's heads. In reality, socialism can be a benign force. Take for example your fire department, police or even the military. They all are classic examples of socialism. Social democracies in parts of Northern Europe have some of the best educated, healthiest people with the greatest level of contentment in the world.
Paul, I don't agree that concerted action and concern for your fellow man are exclusive socialist characteristics.
From a purely academic perspective, there has never been a true communist state because anyone familiar with Marx and Engels and their Communist Manifesto would know that one of the essentials for achieving true communism would be the "withering" away of that state. (In strict interpretation of the Manifesto, socialism would only exist temprorarily, until the state is dismantled). So, communism is not unlike libertarianism in that it's a wonderful ism to theorize about but neither have ever existed in their pure state nor ever will.
I agree with all of that.
#48
11-23-2016 | 01:16 PM
Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 246
From: Longview, Texas
Charlie, I just came across this article on Open Culture, one of my favorite websites. It's the author Umberto Eco talking about fascism.
Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism | Open Culture
"The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The **** gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the **** or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”"
Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism | Open Culture
"The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The **** gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the **** or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”"
#49
11-23-2016 | 01:30 PM
Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 246
From: Longview, Texas
On a daily basis I first check Google News for the trending stories.
Then I check fox news mobile.
I used to check CBS but the recent overwhelming bias in both their reporting and editorials/discussions, combined with a COMPLETE lack of contrition, caused me to delete the app and link.
Then I check twitter. I am following several major news outlets and individual commentators. I can't recall them (there are many) but I often check news from the BBC, CNN International, Fox, Washington Post, Russia Insider (so I can see the ridiculous lies they tell about EVERYTHING), the Federalist, National Review, New York Times, and Times of Israel. I know Politico some others are there too, including state newspapers (Austin American Statesman, Dallas Morning News, and my local paper). Basically, I scroll through the tweets of stories and pick the ones I want to read. I never comment on Twitter.
I very recently started checking Breitbart (Big Government and Texas) because I was curious after Bannon's name came up. The jury is still out on it. I can tell you that the first couple of times I checked it, the headlines and then the stories really got my blood pressure up.
#50
11-23-2016 | 01:37 PM
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Baja
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,845
Likes: 368
From: Near Bordeaux, France
I can agree with some of the synopsis of fascism but there are elements that IMO are too extreme. IMO fascism isn't easily defined in every case and many fascist regimes are different and at odds with some others. I believe it's too simplistic to categorise in these terms. I admit that fascism is a cult, a culture and in many ways deplorable but not routinely defined as the piece leads anyone to believe.
Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism | Open Culture
Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism | Open Culture