I suppose most of you do not quite get why things Brick in the first place. It is not necessarily what the user does, it is a combination of small errors in the scripts the programs do and what you may have selected. I can give you a long winded example. I upgraded my aircraft's system to what is called the Nxi system, essentially replacing the two main processors. There are around 20 processors in the system. This had the effect of speeding stuff up and improving the graphics detail in synthetic vision and smoothing the presentation. There are some AI like enhancements in communications and approach procedures. Cool stuff, but cost nearly what I paid for the Defender X with all its goodies. Airplanes go up in price, not down, so investing in improvements reaps benefits when you sell them.

There is a very long software load that goes with this. Every processor needs to be updated, so its firmware speaks correctly with the new system. This takes roughly 2 hours to load. Garmin has some lovely scripts to do this for you, you go and select all the equipment you have and it selects what to program. So you plug the plane into ground power and fill out the questions and let the load rip, while you read a book. Well each and every airplane has some differences in how they are equipped. Like the Defender, they can be tricked out or bare bones. Mine has more stuff than normal and also has the mods to be a floatplane as well. So it is down in the 2% category or less of the general population (belonged to an Arab in Dubai before me, money than skill to waste). Anyhow, it loads and restarts and all seems well. Except now when I test fly it, lo! No autopilot or electric trim. Kind of a fail. Stuff happens, the STC says load it again and try re-loading 3 times, if you still have issues call Garmin Tech Support.

No joy. I call Garmin. I get pushed up to one of the most capable of their techs. Almost two weeks, still no solution. I had pulled nearly every box that does autopilot functions and checked separately. He had so frigging idea what is wrong. My aircraft at this point may as well be placed on a pole in front of the airport, useless. It is in essence Bricked. I would have reverted to the old system, but part of the deal is trading in your original panels. I plodded on. I have a lot more background than most in this field. I started the load in fully manual loading. Loading each module separately. Tedious beyond belief. Turns out that when it tried to load the Transponder ADS-B software, it was not loading to the correct model, even though the script said so. It would fail out and jump to the end of the load. Sadly the Autopilot Warning Tones are the last module loaded, just after this. Without them, the autopilot self test internally failed and it bricked.

So The Transponder's software was failing the autopilot, when in the normal course of things, they have absolutely no relation and their function only intercepts during the loading of modules. Bad script.

To make it simple, it is akin to going to a vending machine and pressing C-6 expecting a Hershey Bar and it hangs up on the little rotating wire gizmo. You didn't necessarily cause it to fail, but just wanted a candy bar. Crappy design failed it.

That's how you inadvertently brick your car. It is the luck of what you pick in relation to all the other stuff. How well was this Beta tested, or in fact are you, the users, the Beta testers. Garmin has way better programmers than GAP.

 

@Dogpilot we get it, errors get introduced through poorly written source code more than user error.

You have a datapoint that has indicated that messing with the code could brick an ECU. No one doubts that.

But it would be incorrect to assume that all efforts to change code will result in a bricked ECU. Any company selling these wouldn't last a minute with that type of risk/reward model. There have been zero people using a GAP tool that has resulted in a bricked car in the Defender forums.

Many many many companies offer ways to play with your ECU. It is the way the modern hot rodder is making modifications. Look at companies like Haltech that have tools for engine mapping, body controls, etc... In many cases these days just adding an exhaust and intake aren't going to give you the results you want unless you remap the ECU. Coding modern cars is necessary.

 

Edit: Disregard this message - I misread something

 

What about those other features I left in the quote like level for camping, on demand elift/elower, park assist and what exactly is global open?

 

How exactly can you reverse changes?

 

To be honest, this car has such crappy software. I wouldn’t wanna mess with it anymore than I have to. Haven’t you read all the threads about people can’t even get the remote start unit to work correctly without causing all kinds of other problems. Land Rover can’t sort out its own software issues, and they have access to all the source code. To break your car all you have to do is remap something that suddenly renders your throttle position sensor inactive so your car won’t move. These modules are built by a whole bunch of different providers. They all use a similar architecture and communicate over CANBUS or ethernet. A different manufacturer can cause one module to react slightly differently than the other module built by original manufacturer.

The entire software system in this car is kind of a load of crap. They can’t find the software glitch that’s causing the battery drain constantly on these vehicles that are equipped at certain trim levels. Folks like Simon can’t figure it out either and he’s a pretty clever guy. They’ve had five years to do this. They can’t get the entertainment system to randomly stop disconnecting whenever it wants to. In spite of the 5 software upgrades I have had.It took me three dealerships to find one that could actually even program my activity key to work with my vehicle. This should’ve been a rather easy to do thing, but they don’t understand their own software. So you’re assuming that the people at GAP have special knowledge of how everything works in greater depth and detail than Land Rover does. Land Rover hasn’t a clue, it’s been proven repeatedly. I’m not gonna mess with it, I’m going vend this car within 12 months I want it to work at least that much longer. I don’t want to have any problems and I’m not going go and flatbed it 250 miles round-trip just because I needed to change my brake pads and now I have a useless car that needs to be re-flashed back to OEM. However, if one wants to spend the money and roll the dice, rock on.

Heck my car was a brick for the first 60 days. It was in the US simply because of its telemetric system. It’s sat in the port for over a month they tried to fix it. Then it, was flatbeded to the dealership, where it sat over another month till they finally figured out how to make it work again.

BTW, you can reset codes with a $50 code reader and most decent OBD apps, been doing that since 1997 over 4 iterations of Land Rovers even this one. Price for this one, the GAP, is totally out of line with what it does and the risk you run.

 

I love, love, love driving in Dynamic Mode w/ the gearbox in S. So much fun!

 

Since people who aren’t having issues rarely comment about it… mine has been perfect.

No car play issues, no weird stuff going on, everything seems fine. It’s been a great rig so far and has done everything I’ve asked of it (with plenty of scuffs from off-road trails, hauling stuff in the back, on the roof, pulling a trailer, etc.)…

I have a gap tool for mine and I have made minor configuration tweaks with it. It seems like a very nice diagnostic tool which I recommend for anyone with a need to wrench on their own stuff or might want to make some minor tweaks to dial in their experience.

Sounds like some people don’t have that same good experience. That sucks for them and life’s too short to put up with that. In my opinion, they should sell their lemon and find something else that does what they want.

 

Good point, @pinion . More people should speak up so there's a balanced view. I haven't had the hard core issues that @Dogpilot has, but I'm sure I don't "get the use out of it" that he does!<g>

Here's my experiences with the electronics:
- I absolutely think the ghost of Lucas is in this thing. If I leave it in a garage for more than a month unused, it will drain the battery so bad that I have to get a new one AND replace the crappy little telematics battery hidden under a LOT of access points.
- PiviPro has rarely updated in any means or manner that makes any sense for a consumer product.
- PiviPro has gone dark & black on me more than once.
- The vehicle has NEVER left me on the side of the road dead but twice in the early days the AutoStart wouldn't engage at a redlight and I was that dork who had to restart to get the vehicle moving thru the intersection. I haven't had that much fun since I learned to drive with a clutch and stalled at an intersection. However, that was long ago and I suspect they have remotely fixed whatever happened.
- I do have a GAP tool. I love it, but it scares the crap out of me. Like every firearm I own, I give it a LARGE does of healthy respect and caution. I have added Dynamic mode, the 007 dashboard, and a couple other things that escape me now. I love having it in hand because I'm a huge "right to repair" fan.

Ymmv - but in my experience, I've never had as flakey a vehicle. But, I had a Series Land Rover and went into this relationship with a clear conscience that it wasn't going to be as easy to work on as a Ford/Chevy or as reliable as a Honda/Toyota.

Last thought on this thread. I totally agree with @Dogpilot and "It is not necessarily what the user does, it is a combination of small errors in the scripts the programs do and what you may have selected." JLR is NOT a software shop and need to learn how to become one. They have so many options and so many edge cases that they have to operate with that I think the boundaries are beyond them. Or, more likely, they have a LONG backlog of CI work (Continuous Improvements/Bug Fixes) that they just keep hamster wheeling thru. Without more CS engineers they just can't keep ahead of them all.

 

When you first use the tool it captures a snapshot of your factory code and saves it to the their servers. This can be accessed to push it back to the vehicle if needed.

Every change you make can be reversed, but you should keep track of what you change so you don't have to "reset to factory". So if you make 3 CCF changes and it doesn't work, just set them back to the original config and it's all back to normal.

The reason we're debating the good vs bad is so you can see both sides. We're clarifying the position of each. If you only read "don't do it, you'll poke your eye out" then you won't even look at it. Take a look at all the facets of risk and make the decision.