Oh, I definitely agree that a lot of the decisions were made higher up the food chain. I’m sure wheel size was, for instance. I can just see some MBA demanding that the Defender come equipped with dubs for the Kardashian-wannabes crowd.

That said, if the higher-ups at Jeep or Toyota demanded the same thing, their engineers would have acquiesced, sure, because that’s their job… But they would have known that they should also build the wells to be at least capable of housing larger tires. You can buy a Land Cruiser with OEM 20” wheels and low-pro tires if you want (and then I suppose drop the air suspension, black out the windows, and light the underbody with purple LEDs), but that same LC can also run 16” wheels and 33” tires which make for plenty of sidewall off-road.

Engineers, despite the bad ideas of MBAs and marketing people, still have a vested interest in making a truck great. And while I absolutely get that most people are mall-crawlers rather than off-roaders, and to those people, the truck is great as is… the fact remains that the lore of off-road prowess is a major selling point of the Defender- if not the main selling point. As such, stepping into the shoes of the designers, it’s a very bad look for the Defender to get it’s *** handed to it by an inferior vehicle in a shootout, because you’ve been unable to balance the wishes of the higher-ups with design details that allow the truck to actually perform like it is technically capable of performing, at it’s core.

Like you, I’ve been over my truck with a fine tooth comb investigating what can (and what cannot) be done. I certainly feel your frustration… I’ve spent way too much money on way too simple things. Things that would literally be $50 and 10 minutes of DIY on a Jeep have been a day at the shop and close to a thousand dollars on the Defender. It’s insane. And in literally every instance, I saw beautiful engineering, sure… that was also absolutely the wrong way to do it for an off-road vehicle, and obviously could have been done differently, simultaneously delivering on the aesthetics demanded by the MBAs while allowing the truck to be kitted properly, should it need to be.

The engineers could have pleased the jackasses up the line and also made the Defender a beast right out of the box. But they simply didn’t have the practical experience to do so. They’re terrific engineers… just not off-road guys. Anyway. Just one man’s opinion.

 

Crazy question here, but does anyone know where the design team for the "new" Defenders came from? I don't want to throw around biases or go there, I just wonder if it was the same heritage or if it was moved with one of the acquisitions since the original Defender was designed.

 

Great interview that explains it. Pretty much "this isn't supposed to be a rehashed old Defender and, if you don't like it, STFU".

Personally, this is the best thing I've driven since an E39 BMW. That was a special car. ​​​

https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/a694...ign-interview/

 

Somehow I doubt Jeep or Ford are going to “STFU” about that shootout. But you gotta love the Defender team’s confidence on display in the video. Personally, I think that level of attitude is best reserved for design teams whose vehicle doesn’t immediately lose due to a moronic design oversight… but hey, if that’s how they feel, more power to them. More power… like a V8, I guess.

 

It's pretty much only you still going on about those clickbait TFL dopes.

 

If you disqualify a vehicle’s design based solely on its ability to be customized, are you really judging the vehicle’s design? I personally believe many 33” tires put on a 4x4 are only for aesthetics - kinda like lift kits.

Also, I was sitting next to a Wrangler at a light yesterday, and how anyone can compare that metal can to my L663 is beyond me. Of course mine is an HSE, which to me puts it in an entirely different class as the Wrangler.

 

I would be most interested to see how a production Wrangler (2 door or 4 door) would appear and function if it would comply with modern automobile (non-truck) safety compliance requirements AND be able to safely TOW at least 7500 lbs. Maybe it would look like a Jeep Wagoneer?

No vehicle which can only tow 2000 (two door) lbs / 3500 (four door) lbs is comparable to one which can tow 7500 lbs. That said, on youtube the same compliant, technically allowed uses of any vehicle can be compared, I suppose. But, that does not compare the design of the vehicles -- just the specific use performance.

The Wrangler and the Bronco designs are not comparable to that of the Defender, Discovery or Range Rover. No Wrangler or Bronco is going to comply with global automobile regulations and tow a two/three bumper mounted horse trailer.

Enjoy !!

 

You mean discussing pros and cons of off road vehicles, and referencing a shootout by one of the most heavily trafficked off-road channels? I like my Defender, but acknowledge it’s issues and encourage the team at LR to do better. It should have (and with minor design corrections, would have) done better. What’s your issue with acknowledging that? Why not ask for better? Respectfully, maybe you’d be comfier with fanboy forums?

Personally I find mutual masturbation threads boring. Obviously, I think the Defender is the best overall truck available in the US. Otherwise I wouldn’t have bought one.

The Land Cruiser, when it was available, got something like 10 real-world MPG. The Jeep is capable, but primitive, and the models you’d want are tarted up for the mid-90’s No Fear crowd. The Bronco is similarly primitive, steers clear of the tarting, but is less capable than the Jeep. Current 4-Runners are so old they carried the Roman soldiers and spear that poked Jesus. Not to mention none of these various trucks (stealth-wealth Land Cruiser aside) have a polished aspect like the Defender.

So it’s the best, and the one I like the most… but yeah, there is very obviously room for improvement with regards to the off-road stuff.

The frustrating thing (and perhaps why I harp) is that these are small changes, and so easy to implement, the truck should have come that way… just indicative of the lost culture of off-roading that only a couple of decades ago was a cornerstone of Land Rover. I have hope it will return, and the Defender will only get better.

 

I rarely LOL at forum drivel but that got me!

 

At 300k subscribers, they are inconsequential. Largely known by LWP incels who probably don't even drive and who've type the same comment for the last 9 months on every Land Rover article they find, "those TFL boys had 2 broken Defenders!"

By your rationale, traffic should somehow qualify someone as an expert.

I'd suggest watching Eva Zu Beck with 1.3m subs then. At least she lives in her Defender and is probably smart enough to know that 20" street tires don't belong on the rocks... twice.

Or, better yet, if we're looking for the real arbiter of off-road, look no further than WhislinDiesel's 2.93m subs and his choice of wheels.



​​​​​​You have to see the irony in saying "but it's not click-bait, they have a lot of subs".