I understand, but exactly what useful fact did you learn from his opinion as stated?

To be clear, I welcome opinions too, but "I feel like this will break" or "I think this can't" isn't worth nearly as much as "I found this breaks if you" or "it can't ______."

 

Your disappointment is based on "I guess" so, you haven't actually experienced any of the issues that have lead you to be disappointed.............you simply came to that conclusion.....that's some weird logic.

 

Seeing as new Rubicon’s can easily spec up into crazy pricing levels as well, you could easily argue that they are too nice to off road as well, at least by your logic. That’s why anyone who does any serious off roading in a new Jeep will usually add some armor, sliders, underbody protection, all which are possible to add to the Defender as well. People spend enormous amounts on off road rigs, and all of them can get pretty banged up just as easily as a Defender, so it doesn’t really make any sense to say a Defender is too nice to Offroad. Maybe it is for you, but the car doesn’t really care what you think. It’ll happily do some kick *** stuff off road that would embarrass the old Defender. You have every right to not like it, but you should be called out for making statements that just aren’t true.

 

Maybe he was implying that the costs to replace damaged parts will make things more prohibitive, make you second guess doing something that might risk damage. That is probably quite true, but exactly as you say, people spend crazy dollars on jeeps, they damage just as easily without protection and the armor costs just as much as it does on the defender. If you really want something to beat up on the trail get an old toyota/jeep 4x4. It makes little sense to me to get a brand new vehicle and bash it up on hardcore offroad trails unless the repair bills are of no concern. If thats the case then who cares if the parts cost a bit more? You are getting a vehicle that is far more comfortable as an on-road daily driver which has value. I think the only real limitation the defender has in terms of capability is it's tire size, but with the sub-frame lift kits that are coming out now, once someone (lucky8...) figures out how to get 37's on a defender it really removes that limitation. At that point you should be using a rock crawling rig that your defender can tow to the trail, which is something you can't do with a jeep/bronco :P

I was actually going the bronco route at first as in my head I was assuming it was going to be significantly cheaper than a defender, but once you add in all the goodies it costs the same as a well equipped P300. That blew my mind a few months back and I immediately ordered a defender and found myself here :P

 

”OP” means “Original Post” or “Original Poster”; obviously the first meaning was intended here.

The OP (Original Poster in this case) is disappointed with his Defender and also not particularly adept at expressing why. So what? Getting riled up about it is fanboy-ism, and feels immature. Some people responded with reasonable questions and a desire to understand what the OP means (KevinM comes to mind); some others responded snarkily with something of a sarcastic reply. I think that was unnecessary. Not because I’m some sort of guardian of internet propriety or wounded to my soul when a skirmish breaks out; but because it feels defensive and reactionary to flail back at somebody who doesn’t like what we like. His reasons may be unreasonable, in the sense that LR will never build another body-on-frame solid-axle mechanical vehicle like the Series 1 or the 95 Defender again; but that doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable for him to wish they did and be disappointed with the reality of how his Defender 2 turned out when he experienced it day to day.

And for the record, I don’t expect any such reaction myself, even though I’m coming from a well-built and very rough 2-door Wrangler into an $80,000 Defender; but if I experience it I expect I’ll come on here and discuss my disappointment with other owners and potential owners of Defenders. Hopefully with a bit more specificity and clarity than the OP of this thread, but it is what it is.

Cheers!

 

The new vs old Defender has been discussed ad nauseum. They can't be compared. I have both, totally different vehicles. One evolved from the series trucks 50 years ago and one is a modern safe vehicle. More specifics of what he didn't like about his new defender would be something to discuss, but complaining about plastic parts thinking they are going to break is ridiculous. I have offroaded mine and added an aluminum skid plate in front to take some abuse. I have built up my P38 range rover from stock mall crawler to 5 inch lift, 33 inch mud terrains, sliders, winch, etc. A stock P38 next my range rover looks totally different and the wheeling capabilites are totally different as well.

The new defender is a little over a year old and the aftermarket hasn't caught up yet. It will never be able to compete against a sold axle vehicle on some trails but will walk all over them on others. In terms of comfort, don't even talk... there is no comparison. The new defender doesn't leak from rain or leave spots from oil/transfer case/tranny/diff/axle leaks. You can have a conversation in the new defender without shouting and charge electronics without rewiring. You get out of the truck after a few hundred miles with a smile instead of sore back and pounded kidneys. I could go on an on...

As far as abusing them, that's the owners choice. I have already pin striped mine and cracked the windshield, popped 2 tires and actually used the jack. The side is scratched from the cover of my roof top tent...do I care? No. I bought it to use it and I am enjoying every mile, especially the miles of dirt...

A couple of pics of new vs old defender and my undercarriage...

 

^^ nuff said!

 

so what? It’s called “intellectual honesty”, that’s what. It means if someone is making an assertion that calls for challenge, then it’s completely reasonable and valid for anyone who chooses and feels the interest in doing just that, challenge such assertion. Your comment about “getting riled up” is presumptuous because you assumed that for those who chose to question or challenge someone’s comments are upset and have a hidden agenda to defend some sort of idealism which is entirely possible, but certainly not always the case. Just because someone is challenging someone’s idea or comment that is in contrarian to the very thing that the OP is criticizing does not mean those who challenge are defending the defender. It only means that they are defending logic and rationale and request additional information to engage intellectually.

I can’t speak for the others, but i do not think and feel that any of my comments are snarky and sacrastic. All i did was stating facts, rationales and logic in a direct fashion and i did not include unnecessary remarks such as “smirks” or “hahahaha” or any other expressions.

Immature fanboy-ism is following and defending one’s ideal or preference without any backing of logic and rationales, in other words, it’s intellectually dishonest. It’s absolutely not the case over here, well at least, my comments and my perspective.

 

I am always a fan when you can use the word "contrarian" in a sentence, but that line is quite the doozy! Contrarian of the idea that is contrarian to the OP's criticism?

I think the OP is a LR Defender contrarian. People seem to be arguing if his contrarianism is valid in their own eyes.

 

I thought I would jump in on this coversation with a couple of photos.

I was pioneering a new trail a bit ago. It was too narrow, and I banged up the right rear quarter (slid off a small rock in the slick mud at 2 MPH).

I am perfectly fine to leave it as is. I don't really drive the vehicle on the road much (nor wash it) and the repair cost is not value added, since I only use the vehicle for grimy or fun tasks. Plus, I know parts are not available and I don't want to lose it for a couple of weeks to have it go to the aluminum repair shop to have it fixed.

I am not a lover of the outside of the New Defender, anyway. It's all about the 4WD system for me ... to each his own.

I used to drive and ride in an old series Land Rover -- lots of fine memories. But, the New Defender is in a whole better, more practical league -- as are most modern vehicles versus those made pre-1980s. But, that does mean we love the unreliable ones less (well maybe a little less -- but you get it).



The door seal is all good and nothing significant was impacted, so works for me.

More to come on the Rock Slider install -- which is presently underway.

By the way, I am finally getting around to putting on the Lucky8 rock sliders, before I take the vehicle back into the mountains for a weekend of off-roading. I will send a post with some photos of the Lucky8 install, in a few days.