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I am always a fan when you can use the word "contrarian" in a sentence, but that line is quite the doozy! Contrarian of the idea that is contrarian to the OP's criticism?
I think the OP is a LR Defender contrarian. People seem to be arguing if his contrarianism is valid in their own eyes.
not really.
i wrote: “Just because someone is challenging someone’s idea or comment that is in contrarian to the very thing that the OP is criticizing does not mean those who challenge are defending the defender....”
”contrarian to the thing that the OP is criticizing”
the thing that the OP is criticizing = defender is a “sheep in wolf’s clothing”, bodywork too delicate and expensive for anything but driving on the road etc.
contrarian to “the thing that the OP is criticizing” as elaborated in the above sentence = disagreeing and challenging that the defender is a “sheep in wolf’s clothing” and that the bodywork is too delicate and expensive for anything but on-road driving.
therefore, my sentence was cohesive and congruent in logic and rationale and successfully conveying the points that i was making.
so what? It’s called “intellectual honesty”, that’s what. It means if someone is making an assertion that calls for challenge, then it’s completely reasonable and valid for anyone who chooses and feels the interest in doing just that, challenge such assertion. Your comment about “getting riled up” is presumptuous because you assumed that for those who chose to question or challenge someone’s comments are upset and have a hidden agenda to defend some sort of idealism which is entirely possible, but certainly not always the case. Just because someone is challenging someone’s idea or comment that is in contrarian to the very thing that the OP is criticizing does not mean those who challenge are defending the defender. It only means that they are defending logic and rationale and request additional information to engage intellectually.
I can’t speak for the others, but i do not think and feel that any of my comments are snarky and sacrastic. All i did was stating facts, rationales and logic in a direct fashion and i did not include unnecessary remarks such as “smirks” or “hahahaha” or any other expressions.
Immature fanboy-ism is following and defending one’s ideal or preference without any backing of logic and rationales, in other words, it’s intellectually dishonest. It’s absolutely not the case over here, well at least, my comments and my perspective.
You are defending posts 12, 14, and 15 when you offer this defense. If you are happy with that position, good on you. If so, the two of us have widely differing opinions on the meaning of several phrases, such as “intellectual honesty” (those posts do not display it), “riled up” (those posts do display it), “defend some sort of idealism” (again, they do attempt to do so) etc. That is fine, we will proceed without further comment from me. Feel free to believe and write what you wish on the subject.
I thought I would jump in on this coversation with a couple of photos.
I was pioneering a new trail a bit ago. It was too narrow, and I banged up the right rear quarter (slid off a small rock in the slick mud at 2 MPH).
I am perfectly fine to leave it as is. I don't really drive the vehicle on the road much (nor wash it) and the repair cost is not value added, since I only use the vehicle for grimy or fun tasks. Plus, I know parts are not available and I don't want to lose it for a couple of weeks to have it go to the aluminum repair shop to have it fixed.
I am not a lover of the outside of the New Defender, anyway. It's all about the 4WD system for me ... to each his own.
I used to drive and ride in an old series Land Rover -- lots of fine memories. But, the New Defender is in a whole better, more practical league -- as are most modern vehicles versus those made pre-1980s. But, that does mean we love the unreliable ones less (well maybe a little less -- but you get it).
The door seal is all good and nothing significant was impacted, so works for me. More to come on the Rock Slider install -- which is presently underway.
By the way, I am finally getting around to putting on the Lucky8 rock sliders, before I take the vehicle back into the mountains for a weekend of off-roading. I will send a post with some photos of the Lucky8 install, in a few days.
Nice patina! It’s like a piece of furniture with water stains and scratches. Instead of refinishing it and wiping out its history and memories, they become part of the whole and character. In this case, it’s purely subjective!
Something about it doesn't pass the sniff test IMO. IMO it's beneficial for the other brands to have people out here injecting doubt into the minds of those who are on the fence. It's cheap labor relative to actually building something special. They want you to go out and buy a Chrysler product or a Ford product, because it's just as good but cheaper. Yea right, high quality inside and out, right? I spent the first 15 years of my driving life in Fords. Anyone who has sat in a new Defender knows there's no comparison. Anyone who has watched the vehicle off roading knows it's formidable in that role. Is it the very best offroader made? Doesn't matter to me I'm not competing. I don't buy a showroom vehicle and expect to compete in NASCAR with it. I want a safe daily driver that can do some offroading once in a while. I'm just saying when someone comes out with nothing positive but all negative about this vehicle which has been well received world wide then I think it's sometimes fair to ask who's really behind this. There was the CX5 guy a while back, I mean maybe that guy was totally legit too but it's hard to believe sometimes.
i wrote: “Just because someone is challenging someone’s idea or comment that is in contrarian to the very thing that the OP is criticizing does not mean those who challenge are defending the defender....”
”contrarian to the thing that the OP is criticizing”
the thing that the OP is criticizing = defender is a “sheep in wolf’s clothing”, bodywork too delicate and expensive for anything but driving on the road etc.
contrarian to “the thing that the OP is criticizing” as elaborated in the above sentence = disagreeing and challenging that the defender is a “sheep in wolf’s clothing” and that the bodywork is too delicate and expensive for anything but on-road driving.
therefore, my sentence was cohesive and congruent in logic and rationale and successfully conveying the points that i was making.
I could be wrong but my understanding of contrarian and contrary are not same. The OP's opinion is contrarian in nature by virtue of being opposite of popular opinion (Motor trend SUV of the year etc). The opinion also reflects a criticism. People are disagreeing with his contrarian opinion. Some people have agreed that its ok for him to voice a negative opinion. I don't believe anyone is arguing a "contrarian" opinion other than the op. We have opinions that are contrary to another, which is standard every time people have a disagreement.
Nice patina! It’s like a piece of furniture with water stains and scratches. Instead of refinishing it and wiping out its history and memories, they become part of the whole and character. In this case, it’s purely subjective!
Thank you.
Yes, I figure that I will keep using the vehicle to the degree its superior 4WD system enables and adding suitable Items (like the rock sliders and the winch installed in my custom, servicable fashion), as the aftermarket folks catch up with the new design.
Next it needs some under armor for the fuel tanks. And definitely proper recovery rings in the rear (until then, I will use the tow receiver) Photos to come on what I am doing, until then.
We shall see with experience, in time, the value of the New Defender in all its uses, not just on-road (which I am quite pleased with).
Nice patina! It’s like a piece of furniture with water stains and scratches. Instead of refinishing it and wiping out its history and memories, they become part of the whole and character. In this case, it’s purely subjective!
Id leave it, looks fitting. These trucks are just large disposable appliances anyway. They aren’t going to hold value like the original NAS Defenders obviously so why not take it out and use it as intended. It’s nice to see one out in the trails being used as designed.
Id leave it, looks fitting. These trucks are just large disposable appliances anyway. They aren’t going to hold value like the original NAS Defenders obviously so why not take it out and use it as intended. It’s nice to see one out in the trails being used as designed.
That's the plan. And yes, the original Defender is the romantic equivalent of my Grandfather's love for the Model T (he was 12 when he first started driving around the cornfields) and mine for my '67 MGB.
I do feel a bit for those New Defender owners who are not yet fortunate enough to learn and experience the capability of the vehicle off-road. They are missing something. It's capability is the result of decades of committment in evolving the platform. But, to each his own.
People say that off-roading begins with the 2nd or 3rd owner with JLR products -- so we will see lots of activities in several years. Not to worry ... the romance will build!
You're not wrong at all, but I seem to remember reading an article about a stunt driver jumping one or more new Defenders for a scene in the next upcoming Bond movie. They were expecting to all but destroy the vehicle with each jump and for the stunt driver to take the punishment. I believe the article said the thing took the punishment repeatedly and kept control and functioning. They were somewhere between pleased and astounded.
Brilliant! The fact it actually drove away after the roll was the best. I appreciate the OP starting the conversation. In reading it I do think that while mine is pristine and new it does feel a little fragile in some ways. Once I'll gotten my 1st scratch and sand in every nook and cranny, we'll see how fragile it feels to me.
I could be wrong but my understanding of contrarian and contrary are not same. The OP's opinion is contrarian in nature by virtue of being opposite of popular opinion (Motor trend SUV of the year etc). The opinion also reflects a criticism. People are disagreeing with his contrarian opinion. Some people have agreed that its ok for him to voice a negative opinion. I don't believe anyone is arguing a "contrarian" opinion other than the op. We have opinions that are contrary to another, which is standard every time people have a disagreement.
I think we are talking about the same thing.
OP offered a contrarian opinion on the defender with respect to the notion that the defender is widely believed to be desirable by using your example of “motor trend SUV of the year and etc)
People offered a contrarian opinion on the OP’s assertions/opinions
so when i wrote “contrarian”, i was referring to the responders’ “contrarian” opinions on OP’s assertion/opinions
People are not disagreeing with OP’s actual act of criticizing as you stated we all have different opinions and taste and such. People are disagreeing/challenging the factors that OP presented in supporting his/her/their rationale. That in my opinion is not the same as not accepting and embracing different opinions, instead, that’s basic critical thinking and analysis.
05-19-2021, 04:54 PM
