Wow - that was an insane crash. they are lucky to be alive - good to hear they were OK.

Your sarcasm aside, I love ND and am likely to own that next. I think the engineering of defender is excellent all around. I have a LR with a glass moon roof now. I get the trade off, which is why I'm giving it thought. Every time I load stuff, I use ratchet straps to tie stuff to the roof rack (highway driving needs not rope/twine tied, but ratchet strap), and those ratchet straps have aluminum buckles. Careful as I am, they end up hitting the roof. I obviously try to miss the glass parts, as the buckle goes from one side of the roof rack to the other, because I don't want to find out what happens when a chunk of aluminum hits glass. You seem certain that glass is strong enough to take a ratchet strap buckle on impact, but there's also the electric motor that opens/closes it, and I've always been careful during loading/unloading that I don't give the roof some sudden impact or excess pressure. To keep from leaning directly on the roof, I sometime use a small folding set of steps, so I can see stuff up on the roof and make sure it all looks good before I drive off. If the roof were designed to allow for the weight of the person loading the roof, would I be interested in that as a feature? Sure. This is no different than a Wrangler front bumper - it's designed for weight; go rest a foot on it if you want, it will be OK. A strong roof in the way I am referring, would mean I don't have to travel with the small folding steps when I loaded the roof! As for Ineos, I'd use cross bars or a rack, particularly if travel was along a public roadway. How I read it, their strong roof design could be helpful during the loading process, and it's assuming the SUV is in park and motor off. Then, if a roof were designed for weight, would you be able to lean against the roof, bear down on it for leverage, or kneel on it, as you strapped to the cross bars or rack whatever. If I used the roof itself during the loading process, I'd still be loading items on a rack (not the roof directly). If the roof can support your pressure, it could help with finding the right angle as pull a strap tighter. Using the roof itself while loading would be different than what I do now - I try not to add any pressure directly to the roof itself. I don't think it's prudent given the moon roof. I hear you: you think that if the SUV turns over 6 times, I should be able to climb up there as I fasten stuff to the cross bars. But I'm too cautious to try that. I am equally careful in unloading too. Once you take an item off of one rail, it can drop on the roof of the car if you're not holding it well enough. If I didn't have to be as careful, would that be a bit refreshing? I'd give it a try....

 

OK! So you have the Expo Rack + the panoramic roof. Super. I have an old LR with moon roof. I did LR cross bars attached to raised LR rails. It has worked great, but honestly I went with that set up initially because of price - it was way less expensive. What I've found after driving around with it for years is that it also has like zero drag. I see those fancy tubular racks on TRD 4Runners and LC, and it looks like it would impact MPG. Also, what do you find with wind noise on the highway? If that rack is up there 24/7, and it's empty but you are cruising on the highway, how's the feedback to the cabin? It looks about 3 inches from the roof, so as air passes through there, is there any negatives (sound wise) in the cabin? I can say that one benefit of the cross bars is that when they are empty, it's no different than if you didn't have them at all. Granted, when it's loaded, it's way, way, way louder in the cabin. What's your experience been with the LR Expo rack??

 

Personally l couldn't think of a reason why you wouldn't specify a panoramic roof, if it's available.

 

If you would like my honest opinion, and zero sarcasm here....any wind noise for me is at this point non-existent. I know its there, but I'm so used to it, I don't hear it or notice it to be more exact. Do I open the pano with it...yep. Is it super loud and obnoxious....yep. Do I do it anyhow...yep. Do I just turn up the radio to try and compensate....yep.

As far as mileage, drag and all that jazz....I never really gave it that much thought. Of course I care, but if I really cared about those things, I probably should not have bought a vehicle with the aerodynamic properties of a brick. So to me, any incremental changes in mpg, or extra noise from this or that, just does not matter to me. What does matter to me, the the 100% overall total enjoyment every single solitary day I get behind the wheel of Smurf. Getting caught up in the minutia of things just isn't my style, and quite frankly, worrying about an extra 1/4 mpg is low on the list.

But I super get it, and folks doing what makes them happy is the way it should be. Smurf makes me happy, and I would not trade that for anything in the world. Oh....yea I love my wife and 4 kids too (just in case they see this)

 

The comment about the properties of a brick made me laugh out loud. Well done sir.

 

yea, and I kinda like my LR brick. the brick allows for a larger trunk area. I never got the "egg on wheels" concept, as then they just lop off cabin space to create the aerodynamics. I also don't care about 1/2 mpg, obviously, or I'd not be looking at defender. my existing LR is probably 16 mpg around town, and I can be 21 with highway driving - and that's with premium gas. nobody shopping for a LR truly cares much about mpg. but given i don't use the roof that much, having roof rails made sense for cost and less drag. The entire roof with that rack, to me, I'd bet you're getting more than 1/2 mpg impact. If i do another roof rails + cross bars, I may have slightly better mpg, no wind drag, and although it's still a premium gas guzzler, I like LR. as for wind noise in the cabin, personally, I'd be ok with it. but this is to be family purpose SUV. not all my family loves a noisy cabin. some actively have told me it's a negative, and all views have a factor. I want a LR, they want quiet - surely we can have both.

 

there's alot of 4Runners I've seen, many with no moon roof - just one sheet of metal. given the popularity of the TRD Pro (and all the similar types), I have to imagine there is some benefit to that solid roof. The TRD Pro is not inexpensive, so anyone going for that has another $1k for glass window on top, but yet some don't. I also think - personally - the stock images of the Defender with the solid roof looked great. It was not a flat roof (like G wagon or Wrangler), but more of a bevel - again, I thought it looked neat. There's got to be a million Wrangles out my way - folks love open roof. What did Bronco do? More open roof designs; I totally get it's a preference. But there must be some benefit not not having it. Maybe a better insulation if you live in a place like Florida?

 

Well it's game on for the panoramic roof question: the new GX Overtrail allows you to delete the glass roof and save over $1,100 in the process. Most doing so will then buy a full length roof rack, so it's not like they are saving money. How many will do this? Not sure, but given JLR won't sell a Defender without a glass roof, it's a direct shot at potential Defender buyers that may be more interested in roof rack features than RR styling cues. The funny part of this post, which I've read most of the comments, is that it's not like JLR doesn't get it. Folks keep saying "but the glass is great, there's really no difference?" Really? No difference what-so-ever? ... Even JLR knows it's an issue, just look at their marketing. Most of the marketing I've seen on Defenders in off road settings show Defenders without glass roofs. Not all, but many of them. If you don't see an issue of glass below a rack, OK, but I wouldn't conclude that JLR is with you - when you see Defenders in an off road marketing setting, I see an awful lot of full metal roofs. The marketing value is there because the feature of a full metal roof is beneficial for some - and that's why it's advertised - it's a draw.


If you go to JLR sites from Australia, you can order Defenders with no glass on top (it's not unreasonable to get rid of a glass roof if you're putting a full length roof rack over it anyways). In the US, JLR doesn't off the full metal roofs, but I don't think it's accurate to say they don't get the issue, or understand the drawbacks to having a glass roof to begin with. Most buyers prefer the glass on top, which is why it's the only allowed spec. But it doesn't make it ideal for everyone. IMO, JLR totally get that a full roof rack over a glass roof can be perceived by some a bit off, which is why you can find some Defender marketing different than their allowable configurations in the US. The GX is capitalizing upon the mismatch: If you have concerns about all the glass below the rack, the GX offers a solution. I think Defender sales volume was too big for JLR to continue offering both glass top Defenders and metal roof Defenders. Because they can charge more in MSRP for glass top Defenders, and they apparently didn't have capacity for consumer choice, JLR forces the more expensive option for everyone. It is what it is, but clearly the GX is trying to capitalize upon JLR production limitations on customization. If you read GX marketing, the headroom figures are also slightly bigger if you delete the panoramic window - again, not for everyone, but what's wrong with choices? Nothing... except maybe capacity constraints.

 

roof looks way more rigid without glass and also front seats can't really fully enjoy it, it's too far back.

 

Actually, that’s no reason to not offer “Sunroof Delete” and charge the same amount as Pano Sunroof, or even more. They need only look to Porsche. Buy a 911 GTS and they price it to come with Centerlock wheels (a $4000 option on, say, the 911 Turbo). But many of us don’t like Centerlocks, so they offer the GTS with conventional 5-lug wheels also — For No Extra Charge!! Woo boy, finally a No Cost option from Porsche: I can leave off the standard $4000 Centerlocks and you won’t charge me anything for it. Of course, I don’t get the $4k back, either. So Porsche gets to make Centerlock money on the GTS, whether you get Centerlocks or not. And the customer who wants a GTS with 5-lug wheels (that would be me) can have what he wants.

So JLR could, if they wanted to, price the Defender with the Glass Pano roof, then give you a Sunroof Delete option at no charge. Presto! There’s your steel-roof Defender. Heck, that reminds me, I bought a 911 Turbo once (Sunroof is standard) and did exactly that, opted for Sunroof Delete. Got nothing back, but I had a Turbo without sunroof, which is what I wanted.