Cooling System Issue
#82
06-14-2018, 11:07 AM
Super Moderator
I will say it one more time. I did not say they were bad, I said the opposite. I said they worked, just not as claimed. Repeating the same process with the original thermostat did not produce the high temps seen with the Motorad. I should let a colder thermostat drive the temps higher before it reacts? Explain to me why the original thermostat opened well before the Motorad after I reinstalled it. Air pockets? Each were bled the same way. As I already said, every hose was hot and I could observe good flow everywhere.
I also did not say I "never let it run long enough to cycle or see if it was an air issue", those are your words. I said once the temps climbed to a level never seen by me before on this truck I shut it down. It ran for 10-15 minutes while I was checking the trans fluid level. The fan also came on, which is what alerted me to the issue when I heard it. There were no bubbles under the bleed screw, the heat was blasting and all the hoses were hot with the exception of one. The lower radiator hose. When I put the original thermostat back in the truck, repeating the same install procedure, the temps never climbed, the fan never came on, the same flow patterns were exhibited, and the same hoses got hot, including the lower radiator hose. This is because the original thermostat opened before the Motorad. You're offering ifs and and vague statements and I'm giving you facts about my experience. Explain where you theorize these air pockets existed.
Neither of the second statements applied to the original thermostat. Zero. Well of course you have to let it idle initially but that goes without saying. And all these things can be accurate statements, but if this is what Motorads require then they're not for me. It's going back to AB, for whatever reason they agreed with my assessment that it's not performing correctly. I don't disagree that typically improper installation will cause funny things, air pockets are real, and cooling systems can be temperamental, but I'm telling you this was not the case. I'm simply not buying your claim that "it was done wrong". Agree to disagree I guess.
Bingo. There's nothing stamped in this unit (wonder why), there was no air in the system, and the radiator isn't clogged. So.... I stand my my statements.
I also did not say I "never let it run long enough to cycle or see if it was an air issue", those are your words. I said once the temps climbed to a level never seen by me before on this truck I shut it down. It ran for 10-15 minutes while I was checking the trans fluid level. The fan also came on, which is what alerted me to the issue when I heard it. There were no bubbles under the bleed screw, the heat was blasting and all the hoses were hot with the exception of one. The lower radiator hose. When I put the original thermostat back in the truck, repeating the same install procedure, the temps never climbed, the fan never came on, the same flow patterns were exhibited, and the same hoses got hot, including the lower radiator hose. This is because the original thermostat opened before the Motorad. You're offering ifs and and vague statements and I'm giving you facts about my experience. Explain where you theorize these air pockets existed.
Neither of the second statements applied to the original thermostat. Zero. Well of course you have to let it idle initially but that goes without saying. And all these things can be accurate statements, but if this is what Motorads require then they're not for me. It's going back to AB, for whatever reason they agreed with my assessment that it's not performing correctly. I don't disagree that typically improper installation will cause funny things, air pockets are real, and cooling systems can be temperamental, but I'm telling you this was not the case. I'm simply not buying your claim that "it was done wrong". Agree to disagree I guess.
Bingo. There's nothing stamped in this unit (wonder why), there was no air in the system, and the radiator isn't clogged. So.... I stand my my statements.
#83
06-14-2018, 12:45 PM
My "180 deg" Motorad thermostat has me running 196 - 205 while moving and occasionally temps as high as 210 at idle. No air in the system because I got a little crazy constantly checking for a while after fixing a leak at the throttle-body heater. They do not act as advertised. Are these temps going to kill my truck, probably not. Do they bother the heck out of me, yes. When i finally get the smell of coolant out of my nose and stop having nightmares filled with sweet smelling green rivers I will change to the Britpart 180.
#84
06-14-2018, 01:12 PM
Pro Wrench
Guess what boys and girls...!
Hopefully Shane hasn't gotten so frustrated that he's abandoned this thread. I got frustrated arguing the point so I conducted a more scientific test and lo and behold, Shane was seemingly correct regarding the functionality of the system and I was not regarding my installation procedure. There are still a few sticking points to resolve with regard to why, but the bottom line is that this Motorad thermo is not going back (it's not going in my truck either but I will keep it on the shelf as a known good spare). There was definitely something amiss with the installation of the Motorad, at least in my case, and I suspect in many others too. More on that later.
For the test I filled a pot of water and immersed the Motorad, eliminating as many air bubbles in it as possible. I stood it up "upside down" so that the engine side of the plumbing with the dual chamber was pointing down and would get the heated water first, and then I heated it to what looked like an indicated 180° +/-, depending on which thermometer you believe. It appeared that the thermo opened around that time but in that both sides were already filled with water and I could only confirm with a visual of the gap which was difficult through the water, I pulled it out and confirmed that it had opened. I ran it under cold water to close it and then put it back in the pot and waited. Sure enough eventually it opened again, this time easily evidenced by the hot water that flowed up through it, however it took considerably longer due to no hot water on the side of the thermo that connects to the lower hose (the single pipe side) as well as the amount of air that was in the dual pipe side. I repeated this test a couple times and the opening time varied, depending on how much hot water I could get into the common chamber before burning myself. Here's a pic of the setup and a full video of the event is attached for evidence.
Here's what I believe happened, and where Shane is correct. After thinking this through a few times it occurred to me that there was an obvious and important detail I had left out regarding installation of the two thermos, first the Motorad and later the original. When the Motorad went in the radiator was empty, having been removed to service the trans cooler. Upon filling the closed system, any air in the radiator that couldn't surface and vent out the bleeder or the hard-pipe return to the overflow bottle would be trapped in the lower hose and create a large air pocket in the bottom of the thermo housing. What I saw on the stove was that the lack of coolant on the back side of the thermo itself lengthened the time it took for it to open. Shane, you were correct, in the absence of liquid as the thermal conductor in that part of the system I did not wait long enough for the required heat to transfer through the thermo itself and force the bimetallic spring to open which would restore the normal flow. I'm not clear on why it would take so long in the truck, and this is the sticking point I still have. On the stove it would open in 30-60 seconds, depending on how much water was in the dual chamber side. In the truck it was well over 3 or 4 minutes of hot flow though the common side and it had never opened. In any event, when I yanked the Motorad out of there and was trying to prevent all the coolant from hitting the floor there was a positive flow exiting the lower hose and filling the lower chamber of the thermo housing as I connected the hose, which would eliminate (or severely reduce) any air pockets. Voila. I suspect that was my problem. Or the solution to my problem as the case may be. I'm not feeling ballsy enough to reinstall the Motorad and have a LR 180° thermo on the way so I will wait and report back on my theory after that one goes in in the event I learn anything else.
Having said that, going forward I believe it would be a good practice to connect the lower hose only after coolant started flowing from it when refilling an empty system, or if you let the radiator completely drain out when swapping the thermo. This is likely why people get mixed results when servicing these cooling systems. Had I not had an OBDII reader connected so I could observe actual temps while doing this I may not have even noticed what was happening, however hearing the fan come on freaked me out. I still don't like the fact that you stand a good chance of heating the engine to far beyond normal operating temps while you wait for the thermo to open in the absence of liquid, as that seems unnecessary and risky. Either way, it appears that there are a multitude of ways for operator error to create the appearance of faulty equipment.
Hopefully Shane hasn't gotten so frustrated that he's abandoned this thread. I got frustrated arguing the point so I conducted a more scientific test and lo and behold, Shane was seemingly correct regarding the functionality of the system and I was not regarding my installation procedure. There are still a few sticking points to resolve with regard to why, but the bottom line is that this Motorad thermo is not going back (it's not going in my truck either but I will keep it on the shelf as a known good spare). There was definitely something amiss with the installation of the Motorad, at least in my case, and I suspect in many others too. More on that later.
For the test I filled a pot of water and immersed the Motorad, eliminating as many air bubbles in it as possible. I stood it up "upside down" so that the engine side of the plumbing with the dual chamber was pointing down and would get the heated water first, and then I heated it to what looked like an indicated 180° +/-, depending on which thermometer you believe. It appeared that the thermo opened around that time but in that both sides were already filled with water and I could only confirm with a visual of the gap which was difficult through the water, I pulled it out and confirmed that it had opened. I ran it under cold water to close it and then put it back in the pot and waited. Sure enough eventually it opened again, this time easily evidenced by the hot water that flowed up through it, however it took considerably longer due to no hot water on the side of the thermo that connects to the lower hose (the single pipe side) as well as the amount of air that was in the dual pipe side. I repeated this test a couple times and the opening time varied, depending on how much hot water I could get into the common chamber before burning myself. Here's a pic of the setup and a full video of the event is attached for evidence.
Here's what I believe happened, and where Shane is correct. After thinking this through a few times it occurred to me that there was an obvious and important detail I had left out regarding installation of the two thermos, first the Motorad and later the original. When the Motorad went in the radiator was empty, having been removed to service the trans cooler. Upon filling the closed system, any air in the radiator that couldn't surface and vent out the bleeder or the hard-pipe return to the overflow bottle would be trapped in the lower hose and create a large air pocket in the bottom of the thermo housing. What I saw on the stove was that the lack of coolant on the back side of the thermo itself lengthened the time it took for it to open. Shane, you were correct, in the absence of liquid as the thermal conductor in that part of the system I did not wait long enough for the required heat to transfer through the thermo itself and force the bimetallic spring to open which would restore the normal flow. I'm not clear on why it would take so long in the truck, and this is the sticking point I still have. On the stove it would open in 30-60 seconds, depending on how much water was in the dual chamber side. In the truck it was well over 3 or 4 minutes of hot flow though the common side and it had never opened. In any event, when I yanked the Motorad out of there and was trying to prevent all the coolant from hitting the floor there was a positive flow exiting the lower hose and filling the lower chamber of the thermo housing as I connected the hose, which would eliminate (or severely reduce) any air pockets. Voila. I suspect that was my problem. Or the solution to my problem as the case may be. I'm not feeling ballsy enough to reinstall the Motorad and have a LR 180° thermo on the way so I will wait and report back on my theory after that one goes in in the event I learn anything else.
Having said that, going forward I believe it would be a good practice to connect the lower hose only after coolant started flowing from it when refilling an empty system, or if you let the radiator completely drain out when swapping the thermo. This is likely why people get mixed results when servicing these cooling systems. Had I not had an OBDII reader connected so I could observe actual temps while doing this I may not have even noticed what was happening, however hearing the fan come on freaked me out. I still don't like the fact that you stand a good chance of heating the engine to far beyond normal operating temps while you wait for the thermo to open in the absence of liquid, as that seems unnecessary and risky. Either way, it appears that there are a multitude of ways for operator error to create the appearance of faulty equipment.
#85
06-14-2018, 01:15 PM
Super Moderator
Chem that sounds exactly how a 180F is going to work. If it was a 195F unit your temps would be 205-220F easy. Remember all a 180F does is open sooner vs a 195F thermostat. However once you reach the point where the air flowing thru the radiator maxes out temps will climb. I can run 188-193F all day long at 55-60MPH, but if I increase my speed to 70-80MPH the air thru the radiator stops being as effective as the RPM’s go up and the temps will go up.
A 180F thermostat has a much larger temp range of up/down temps vs a 195F. For example I just did a 750 mile trip last weekend. Cruising at 65MPH on flat ground with an outside temp of 90-95F got me temps of 188-193F, but if I sped up to pass someone or I slowed down for traffic/construction I saw it go as high as 207F, but after a bit of resuming 65MPH the temps would creep back down to 188-195F.
I’ve done the same trip with a 195F thermostat and my lowest temp would be like 198F to a max of 215F with an average temp of 205F.
The highest I saw on my trip was at idle with the HVAC on. It got up to 211F, but one on the move the temps quickly dropped.
Back when there was no such thing as an Ultragauge or Scangauge II I can guarantee you a stock D2 was running in the 210-225F range no questions asked. I had two 03’s and I put a ton of miles on them (well past 150k) and I never changed a set of HG’s.
If you have a 180F thermostat and stay at a max of 210F you’re fine. It’s the above 215F stuff that would raise some concerns especially if it didn’t drop quickly while on the move.
A 180F thermostat has a much larger temp range of up/down temps vs a 195F. For example I just did a 750 mile trip last weekend. Cruising at 65MPH on flat ground with an outside temp of 90-95F got me temps of 188-193F, but if I sped up to pass someone or I slowed down for traffic/construction I saw it go as high as 207F, but after a bit of resuming 65MPH the temps would creep back down to 188-195F.
I’ve done the same trip with a 195F thermostat and my lowest temp would be like 198F to a max of 215F with an average temp of 205F.
The highest I saw on my trip was at idle with the HVAC on. It got up to 211F, but one on the move the temps quickly dropped.
Back when there was no such thing as an Ultragauge or Scangauge II I can guarantee you a stock D2 was running in the 210-225F range no questions asked. I had two 03’s and I put a ton of miles on them (well past 150k) and I never changed a set of HG’s.
If you have a 180F thermostat and stay at a max of 210F you’re fine. It’s the above 215F stuff that would raise some concerns especially if it didn’t drop quickly while on the move.
Last edited by Best4x4; 06-14-2018 at 01:19 PM.
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#86
06-14-2018, 01:18 PM
Pro Wrench
My "180 deg" Motorad thermostat has me running 196 - 205 while moving and occasionally temps as high as 210 at idle. No air in the system because I got a little crazy constantly checking for a while after fixing a leak at the throttle-body heater. They do not act as advertised. Are these temps going to kill my truck, probably not. Do they bother the heck out of me, yes. When i finally get the smell of coolant out of my nose and stop having nightmares filled with sweet smelling green rivers I will change to the Britpart 180.
Last edited by ahab; 06-14-2018 at 01:27 PM.
#87
06-14-2018, 03:00 PM
Pro Wrench
#88
06-14-2018, 04:36 PM
I do understand that 180 is not the temp I would be running with a 180 stat, but I keep hearing of people who are running 188 - 198 with that stat. I guess 95 deg with 100% humidity and a black truck probably doesn't help either. I do not seem to be running lean and I don't think my cat is plugged. I may go back to the 93 octane and see if that makes a difference, I have been using mid grade. I have heard that the OEM and Britparts are fully open at 180 where the motorad is starting to open at 180 but not fully open till 185-188. I don't know if this is true or just hearsay.
#89
06-14-2018, 06:15 PM
I run the same temps as Best4x4. It seems that when outside temps get above 80 degrees, I run warmer. I always have the AC on. I run 194-195 steady at 30-55mph. Sometimes 188-190 on a downhill stretch. Uphill or highway at 70mph, I can jump up to 203-206. As soon as I hit flat ground or slow down a hair, 194-197. Idle at a red light, as high as 210. Start to drive not even a quarter mile, 194-195 again. Now, in under 80 degree outside temps, I run 194-195 steady, with maybe a high of 203-204 idle or uphill. I have a new cooling system and have had 3 OEM genuine grey thermostats run these temps. System is bled properly. I had these temps on my old engine and my Turner. I have come to peace with these temps. Anything under 210 is fine. I would say my average temp is maybe 197. Again, all new cooling system with radiator, hoses, water pump, reservoir with cap, etc. New HD fan clutch. AC fan works as it should. New motor, so no need to flush. Heater core flushed. System bled. Some trucks just run warmer. Period.
Last edited by dtmbinb; 06-14-2018 at 08:23 PM.
#90
06-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Super Moderator
Yep DT, I've got 4 D2's all with 180F thermostats (just swapped out the 500.00 wonders the other day to a 180F britpart unit). 3 are black britpart units and one is an OEM grey unit. All the temps are exactly the same or within 1F of each other so close enough in my book. All have excellent cooling systems, green coolant, HD Fan Clutches, either a 99-02 fan blade or the Dorman 620-112 unit.
When I was in Austin, TX last weekend, by Lake Travis I hit some good downhill stretches and I went from 193F down to 182F on one downhill. 210-212F is my normal max temp range especially driving on steep grades, or sitting in stopped traffic in the middle of a hot summers day. My dang air intake temps on the D2's without snorkels can reach as high as 142F....... That is just the temp of the air floating around on the highway so of coarse you will see your engine temps climb when you're sitting still in that crap.
My 08 H3 Hummer with the 5.3L all aluminum V8 normally ran 195F as the absolute lowest temp with 215-220F being it's normal range.... I tweaked it some and got it down to 205-215F, but on a trip to San Antonio just at about this time 3 years ago I saw that poor thing get up to 237F!!!!! I was stuck in a construction zone not moving and the intake air temp was 148-152F.... I exited the freeway when I could removed 2 lower skid plates, and cooled it down by opening the hood. I'm 100% sure I'd have blown that engine up had it not started to rain and it cooled down outside.
D2 wise 210-212F is the max I wanna see. If it goes above that and does not cool down something is wrong. I did the 750-800mile worth of driving in my 02 Kalahari with 235K on it. Handled it like a boss, and I enjoyed getting her out on the road for a trip to see my best friends.
I will add that this time last year I noticed my 02 Kalahari was maybe 3-4F warmer than usual all summer. Then in the winter when we finally had temps down into the 20F range I noticed my heater core was clogged up when I had zero heat output. I flushed it out, replaced the hoses, and got my heater working excellent, and this summer the temps are right back in the same range as my other D2's, so people that have an older D2 or one they haven't owned for a while should honestly check their heater cores out or at least flush them out the same time as the 180F thermostat install as it will take 3-5F away from your cooling system if it's clogged or starting to clog. When I reverse flushed mine it blew out white snot looking crap. I ran water thru it 5-10 minutes in reverse then, flushed it the other way the same amount of time.
When I was in Austin, TX last weekend, by Lake Travis I hit some good downhill stretches and I went from 193F down to 182F on one downhill. 210-212F is my normal max temp range especially driving on steep grades, or sitting in stopped traffic in the middle of a hot summers day. My dang air intake temps on the D2's without snorkels can reach as high as 142F....... That is just the temp of the air floating around on the highway so of coarse you will see your engine temps climb when you're sitting still in that crap.
My 08 H3 Hummer with the 5.3L all aluminum V8 normally ran 195F as the absolute lowest temp with 215-220F being it's normal range.... I tweaked it some and got it down to 205-215F, but on a trip to San Antonio just at about this time 3 years ago I saw that poor thing get up to 237F!!!!! I was stuck in a construction zone not moving and the intake air temp was 148-152F.... I exited the freeway when I could removed 2 lower skid plates, and cooled it down by opening the hood. I'm 100% sure I'd have blown that engine up had it not started to rain and it cooled down outside.
D2 wise 210-212F is the max I wanna see. If it goes above that and does not cool down something is wrong. I did the 750-800mile worth of driving in my 02 Kalahari with 235K on it. Handled it like a boss, and I enjoyed getting her out on the road for a trip to see my best friends.
I will add that this time last year I noticed my 02 Kalahari was maybe 3-4F warmer than usual all summer. Then in the winter when we finally had temps down into the 20F range I noticed my heater core was clogged up when I had zero heat output. I flushed it out, replaced the hoses, and got my heater working excellent, and this summer the temps are right back in the same range as my other D2's, so people that have an older D2 or one they haven't owned for a while should honestly check their heater cores out or at least flush them out the same time as the 180F thermostat install as it will take 3-5F away from your cooling system if it's clogged or starting to clog. When I reverse flushed mine it blew out white snot looking crap. I ran water thru it 5-10 minutes in reverse then, flushed it the other way the same amount of time.