Electric Cooling Fans (Possible Mod) Question
#11
03-14-2012, 08:53 AM
What you want to avoid is this:[/quote]
226! Wow! I freak out at 212! I will be taking baby steps with this trust me.
By the way:
My thinking too. between 194-200 is where I want it. Best would be a steady 197 I believe.
--Mike
226! Wow! I freak out at 212! I will be taking baby steps with this trust me.
By the way:
--Mike
Last edited by mj_duell; 03-14-2012 at 08:58 AM.
#12
03-14-2012, 03:17 PM
Super Moderator
While an analog gauge can show the 197, the analog to digital converter in the ECU will show what goes to the OBDII port. I notice that much of the time mine goes in perhaps 2 - 3 degree increments, today I drove at 55 and was 183, 185. Slowed down in traffic and was up to 187 - 192, then back down. Switch on AC and hit the freeway at 70, got to 199, then it dropped back to 187 and stayed around there. Drove stop and go traffic in the afternoon (we are about to have a "green" party this Saturday, the are predicting it may top 1 million), all our fountains are dyed and look like antifreeze gushers. Was never over 192, and settled down to 180 - 183 on afternoon drive home at 55. So in my case, the AC being on (D1 has fans always on with AC) seemed to drop it slightly on the roadway.
Another thing about using an ultra gauge or a scanner is that you see how the stat behaves in digital form. At first you will have "overshoot" as heat increases beyond where you would like it, then cool water is released and heat dips back down. This cycle repeats several times and stabilizes. Meanwhile the analog gauge hardly moves. So don't get excited about things you were not supposed to see. As far as 212, no need to be concerned as long as it does not stay there. That is what coolant and a pressure cap are for, you'ld have to get to 265 to boil. So the guys with rock hard upper hose, and violent bubbles in the coolant reserve container - yep, that could be bad.
In my off duty village idiot opinion, the Rover instruments allow owners to be lulled into a false sense of all is right with the world, while the engine, for some minor reason, is actually running hotter than a reasonable fellow would want without investigation. So over time, the engine is being slow roasted in cheap oil that gets changed every 25,000 whether it needs it or not. An oil pressure gauge is not a new invention...
Another thing about using an ultra gauge or a scanner is that you see how the stat behaves in digital form. At first you will have "overshoot" as heat increases beyond where you would like it, then cool water is released and heat dips back down. This cycle repeats several times and stabilizes. Meanwhile the analog gauge hardly moves. So don't get excited about things you were not supposed to see. As far as 212, no need to be concerned as long as it does not stay there. That is what coolant and a pressure cap are for, you'ld have to get to 265 to boil. So the guys with rock hard upper hose, and violent bubbles in the coolant reserve container - yep, that could be bad.
In my off duty village idiot opinion, the Rover instruments allow owners to be lulled into a false sense of all is right with the world, while the engine, for some minor reason, is actually running hotter than a reasonable fellow would want without investigation. So over time, the engine is being slow roasted in cheap oil that gets changed every 25,000 whether it needs it or not. An oil pressure gauge is not a new invention...
#13
03-14-2012, 09:41 PM
#14
03-15-2012, 05:06 AM
Super Moderator
My pix is under the shade tree, at idle, rad partially blocked, to demo the fact that the gauge that people sometimes glance at while driving is about as accurate as our elected officials. By all means, including hood scoops, if you think your coolant temp is too high, then do something about it. The ultra gauge lets you set an alarm for it as well. But the point is well taken, new owners of Ultra Gauges have their attention on the temps.
#15
03-15-2012, 06:29 AM
You got it. Here is my thinking on open and closed loop cooling. I have a car with a mid mounted aluminum engine, 2 radiators, electric fans come on at 195. This temp is maintainable in even in 100 degree weather at a stand still so logic says the same should be possible on a vehicle with even more airflow through the radiator. What is the closed loop temp range for a 4. 6 Disco II? That is important and the temps will need to be controlled to hold in that range. If I place the probe or temp sender at the right location and have an adjustable temp for the fans there might be a "sweet spot" that could be set.
As Savanna has relayed the temp rangkie specs are a little fuzzy. We need to nail down operating temp and closed loop temps, I am sure they overlap. Seeing you are in Jersey, I may look you up after the install so we can put eyes on this and tweek it a bit. I am still a couple weeks away from completion as I want to have my new radiator and water pump in place so I am sure I am going to start from a factory functioning system before modding.
One other thought. We should set parameters to judge how things are going. I will use the Ultra Gauge for testing.
1. Warm up time
2. Optimal operating temp at idle with air conditioning on (and off)
3. Optimal operating temp driving at 55mph with air conditioning on (and off)
4. Off-road, beach, etc. slow crawl in high heat, say 85-100 outside temp with air conditioning on (and off)
5. Cold weather operation optimal operating temp under 40 degrees outside temp at 55mph
Also,
I guess we should do mpg recordings.
--Mike
As Savanna has relayed the temp rangkie specs are a little fuzzy. We need to nail down operating temp and closed loop temps, I am sure they overlap. Seeing you are in Jersey, I may look you up after the install so we can put eyes on this and tweek it a bit. I am still a couple weeks away from completion as I want to have my new radiator and water pump in place so I am sure I am going to start from a factory functioning system before modding.
One other thought. We should set parameters to judge how things are going. I will use the Ultra Gauge for testing.
1. Warm up time
2. Optimal operating temp at idle with air conditioning on (and off)
3. Optimal operating temp driving at 55mph with air conditioning on (and off)
4. Off-road, beach, etc. slow crawl in high heat, say 85-100 outside temp with air conditioning on (and off)
5. Cold weather operation optimal operating temp under 40 degrees outside temp at 55mph
Also,
I guess we should do mpg recordings.
--Mike
But that's just my 3 cent opinion.
Last edited by dgi 07; 03-15-2012 at 06:42 AM. Reason: grammatical syntax
#16
03-15-2012, 06:57 AM
May I suggest scrapping the ultra guage, and start with a scan tool that can tell you exactly when you enter closed loop. Im no RAVE pro, but maybe its in rave somewhere. Once you find that temperature, place your temp sensor for the fans to come on about 5 degrees higher and shut off about 2 degrees from closed loop. That way, depending on what closed loop temperature is, you should always be in closed loop, you should have more consistent temperatures, and you should have pretty nice alternative to the inline thermostat mod. Don't worry about mpg's until the system is up and running consistently through various temperatures.
But that's just my 3 cent opinion.
But that's just my 3 cent opinion.
Great idea for on/off temp actually. Problem is finding that closed loop temp, I haven't been able to yet. I was under the impression that the Ultra Gauge was returning the same data as my scanner. Isn't UG just an OBDII scanner? If not I can always use my scanner instead.
One of the reasons for trying this first is that I do not want to change the OEM cooling hoses and thermostat if I can help it. I do not know if this project will even work, but at least if it does not we can put it to bed and know it is not a working solution. If it does work then I think it will be a fairly inexpensive and reduced labor way of cooling things in the engine.
Thanks,
Mike
#17
03-15-2012, 06:57 AM
Super Moderator
I think the UG can show the open/closed loop as well. On my ultracheap scanner, it seems I go to closed loop at some way low temp, like under 150 degrees coolant temp.
From the RAVE:
From the RAVE:
From cold start, the ECM runs an open loop fuelling strategy. The ECM keeps this strategy in place until the HO
2S is at a working temperature of 350 °C (662 °F). At this point the ECM starts to receive HO2S information and it can then switch into closed loop fuelling as part of its adaptive strategy.
I would gather that the electrical heating of the O2 sensor provides some of that 662F at cold start, obviously the exhaust temp rapidly comes up and provides the bulk of it. This would happen faster in a warm start engine as well. The coolant temp is certainly related to jump to closed loop, and this might vary by condition of vehicle.
As to improvement on how the stock thermostat behaves, that stat works by taking in a constant sample of hot coolant thru the bypass disk to warm up the thermostat and force it to open. Since this is some distance form the engine block and the coolant temp sensor, there will always be a lag in when temp is seen going up and when the stat will feel it. This lag response should also be considered when adjusting the electric fan operation points. Rover may have chosen this stat, which starts to open at 180F, because of this lag; the same 4.0 block in a D1 has a 192 -195 starts to open stat (and a bigger radiator). The D1 stat is in the block, so apples to apples comparison of methodology may not work. But engine temp is engine temp, and steady and reasonable beats low, high, and spikey ever day.
As for mpg - none of those letters appear in "Rover".....
I would gather that the electrical heating of the O2 sensor provides some of that 662F at cold start, obviously the exhaust temp rapidly comes up and provides the bulk of it. This would happen faster in a warm start engine as well. The coolant temp is certainly related to jump to closed loop, and this might vary by condition of vehicle.
As to improvement on how the stock thermostat behaves, that stat works by taking in a constant sample of hot coolant thru the bypass disk to warm up the thermostat and force it to open. Since this is some distance form the engine block and the coolant temp sensor, there will always be a lag in when temp is seen going up and when the stat will feel it. This lag response should also be considered when adjusting the electric fan operation points. Rover may have chosen this stat, which starts to open at 180F, because of this lag; the same 4.0 block in a D1 has a 192 -195 starts to open stat (and a bigger radiator). The D1 stat is in the block, so apples to apples comparison of methodology may not work. But engine temp is engine temp, and steady and reasonable beats low, high, and spikey ever day.
As for mpg - none of those letters appear in "Rover".....
#18
03-15-2012, 11:42 AM
Well, if what buzz is saying about closed loop is true, we can't use open and closed loop temperatures. No offence buzz, but I wanna retest that temperature on a range of trucks across the country if possible. I honestly think your optimal temp should be about 190-195 Max. And yes, I said that with my flame retardant suit on. Gives you enough room for overheating. Yea, you may deal with a little carboning but you're already running premium. And a little fuel treatment will help with that.
#19
03-15-2012, 12:07 PM
Well, if what buzz is saying about closed loop is true, we can't use open and closed loop temperatures. No offence buzz, but I wanna retest that temperature on a range of trucks across the country if possible. I honestly think your optimal temp should be about 190-195 Max. And yes, I said that with my flame retardant suit on. Gives you enough room for overheating. Yea, you may deal with a little carboning but you're already running premium. And a little fuel treatment will help with that.
I actually think you are both right in a way. Yes, we cannot use the coolant temp of 150 as a base, its to cold, however a range of 190-195 over laps with the range I was shooting for 194-200. Now the question is, where to take that temp. It seems the temp at the radiator is a lag temp, so maybe as Savanna has stated I should look for a place on the block to set the switch. So now lets talk on/off temp for that. If its 180 setting as a base I would figure, on the block, the fans might run too early and the engine temps would always be around 180-190, too cold, but if I set it to 195 at the block I think we may fall in the right range and still leave room for over heat. At the radiator I would have to set the switch lower and play a lot of guess work at what the block temp is. It will also be affected by weather a lot more. Does that sound right? Maybe the block is the best place for the sensor.
P.S.
Just found this:
http://www.amazon.com/Flex-lite-3116.../dp/B000CNN3LS
Now with variable and settable temps this becomes even more doable. I may just get this controller and see if that is an even better option.
--Mike
Last edited by mj_duell; 03-15-2012 at 12:32 PM.