Oil Pump
#33
08-02-2012, 09:59 AM
On AB, there are 2 different timing covers for the Discovery II: Land Rover Parts, Accessories and Information . So, from the looks of things, the block was machined wrong when they made it, but the timing cover is what they decided to alter instead to remedy the problem. I looked on the front of my timing cover and it says "HE .1310148". Below and to the left of the cam shaft sensor, it has in 3 square boxes with the numbers, 01,02,03. SO, drowssap, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind or are able to look at your front cover on your 04 Discovery and see what it's numbers say.
The reason for the different part numbers is that pre 2003 had oil cooler. post 2003 did not.
They fixed the issue half-way into the 2003 model year, because later ones didn't have the problem. As i've said many, many times - if you start removing the bolts holding the cover to the block, and the shoulders are all biased to one side of the holes in the cover (or to put it accurately, contacting one side of the hole), then you have a block with the dowel issue...
Last edited by turbodave; 08-02-2012 at 10:02 AM.
#34
08-02-2012, 09:25 PM
#35
08-03-2012, 10:30 AM
Here is what you need to do:
Strip down your front cover, removing the pump backing plate and front seal. Remove the gerotor assy and clean evrything down with brake cleaner.
Next, take the inner rotor hub, and install on the crank. Check that it slides freely and cleanly. If all is good, remove and set back to the front cover.
Now, spray a light film of wd40 over everything and instal the gerotor. Next, fit the alloy backplate, and wind all screws down hand-tight. Now, unscrew them 3three full turns - leaving the plate loose, but stopping the pump gerotor gears from "falling out"
Next, put the dry gasket on the engine, then gently pulling the pump drive hub towards the "front" of the cover, fit the cover to your engine on the two dowels (spinning the drive hub as required to align with keyway on the crank).
What you have now, is the pump fitted to the engine. If you want, it wouldn't hurt to wind few (cover to block) bolts in finger tight, just to hold it in place.
What you now are looking to do, is see if the inner hub can float axially, or if it is tight (binding). First, use a screwdriver (paralell to the crank axis) on the ourside of the drive hub and push the gerotor set rearwards to push the pump plate againse the loose screws.
Now what you need to do, is gently pull the drive hub forwards, which will bring the inner rotor with it. Does it slide as cleanly and easily as when you tried the pump drive hub on the crank nose? Do it a few times - push backwards on the inner rotor with a small screwdriver, pull forwards with the drive hub - basically, get a "feel" for the movement....
If it moves freely, this is good.
If it is tight, then this is not good, as it means the pump (which is located in the cover) is not well aligned relative to the crank nose, and using all those few thou of clearances in the pump assy, which will likely mean a pump failure will soon follow as the pump will bind and likely break with the first piece of grit or metalic lump that is sucked up (this will happen even if you change you oil, don't kid yourself)...
Even if it is ok, you need to try it in different crank positions, so wind in the front bolt, put your bar on it, and move the crank 25/30 degrees, and try it again... Because of the design of the gerotor, I'd do two full turns on the crank to be sure(!)
If you have what feels like nice, free movement, then remove the cover, clean out the wd40 and prepare with build lube or whatever you prefer, build it up, and re-assemble, confident that you should be good to go and aren't going to toast your pump and engine soon after you put it all together.
IF it feels tight in some areas, then you need to do a little more work... Pulling the dowels is one option, but a better way might be to merely "re-shape" them - remove material from the offending side.... Which side is the offending one - well, perhaps start by taking a look at how all the 5/16"-18 bolts are sitting in the holes in the front cover - are they all biased to one side of the bolt holes in the cover? Most likely you need to move the front cover into the direction which would centralise the bolt holes to the bolt shoulders.
Also, take a careful, close look at the dowels where they enter the block; if you have a "2003 in the vin range" you will probably see that the countersink (chamfer) "lead in" for the dowel is offset from the actual dowel - It seems to me that the bolt-holes, and chamfer correct, but managed to drill the dowel hole wrong... Don't know how, don't really care, but it is obvious to see if you have one of these 2003 blocks...
Basically, remove material on one side of the dowel with a dremel, then re-fit and repeat the axial float test...
I know some folks have totally removed the dowels, and I do think that will be fine and not cause any problems - just so long as they go ahead and check tht the inner hub can still float on the crank (remember that you can't do this if you instal the front oil seal on the cover while it is on the workbench)... It wouldn't hurt anything however, once you have it lined up perfectly, to drill two small (1/8" ish) holes on the outside of the cover flange and into the block in a non-critical area. You can then tap in a dowel, and pein the cover over slightly to hold it in place, for a high confidence approach.
None of this is especially difficult or hard, it is just time consuming. In the engineering world, it is called "fitting" - making sure thinks are working correctly and have clearances as required. In the engine building world, it would be termed blueprinting- the kind if attention to detail that is used for race engines. Anyone who puts critical components on an engine without checking stuff like this is asking for trouble, but it all takes time...
Strip down your front cover, removing the pump backing plate and front seal. Remove the gerotor assy and clean evrything down with brake cleaner.
Next, take the inner rotor hub, and install on the crank. Check that it slides freely and cleanly. If all is good, remove and set back to the front cover.
Now, spray a light film of wd40 over everything and instal the gerotor. Next, fit the alloy backplate, and wind all screws down hand-tight. Now, unscrew them 3three full turns - leaving the plate loose, but stopping the pump gerotor gears from "falling out"
Next, put the dry gasket on the engine, then gently pulling the pump drive hub towards the "front" of the cover, fit the cover to your engine on the two dowels (spinning the drive hub as required to align with keyway on the crank).
What you have now, is the pump fitted to the engine. If you want, it wouldn't hurt to wind few (cover to block) bolts in finger tight, just to hold it in place.
What you now are looking to do, is see if the inner hub can float axially, or if it is tight (binding). First, use a screwdriver (paralell to the crank axis) on the ourside of the drive hub and push the gerotor set rearwards to push the pump plate againse the loose screws.
Now what you need to do, is gently pull the drive hub forwards, which will bring the inner rotor with it. Does it slide as cleanly and easily as when you tried the pump drive hub on the crank nose? Do it a few times - push backwards on the inner rotor with a small screwdriver, pull forwards with the drive hub - basically, get a "feel" for the movement....
If it moves freely, this is good.
If it is tight, then this is not good, as it means the pump (which is located in the cover) is not well aligned relative to the crank nose, and using all those few thou of clearances in the pump assy, which will likely mean a pump failure will soon follow as the pump will bind and likely break with the first piece of grit or metalic lump that is sucked up (this will happen even if you change you oil, don't kid yourself)...
Even if it is ok, you need to try it in different crank positions, so wind in the front bolt, put your bar on it, and move the crank 25/30 degrees, and try it again... Because of the design of the gerotor, I'd do two full turns on the crank to be sure(!)
If you have what feels like nice, free movement, then remove the cover, clean out the wd40 and prepare with build lube or whatever you prefer, build it up, and re-assemble, confident that you should be good to go and aren't going to toast your pump and engine soon after you put it all together.
IF it feels tight in some areas, then you need to do a little more work... Pulling the dowels is one option, but a better way might be to merely "re-shape" them - remove material from the offending side.... Which side is the offending one - well, perhaps start by taking a look at how all the 5/16"-18 bolts are sitting in the holes in the front cover - are they all biased to one side of the bolt holes in the cover? Most likely you need to move the front cover into the direction which would centralise the bolt holes to the bolt shoulders.
Also, take a careful, close look at the dowels where they enter the block; if you have a "2003 in the vin range" you will probably see that the countersink (chamfer) "lead in" for the dowel is offset from the actual dowel - It seems to me that the bolt-holes, and chamfer correct, but managed to drill the dowel hole wrong... Don't know how, don't really care, but it is obvious to see if you have one of these 2003 blocks...
Basically, remove material on one side of the dowel with a dremel, then re-fit and repeat the axial float test...
I know some folks have totally removed the dowels, and I do think that will be fine and not cause any problems - just so long as they go ahead and check tht the inner hub can still float on the crank (remember that you can't do this if you instal the front oil seal on the cover while it is on the workbench)... It wouldn't hurt anything however, once you have it lined up perfectly, to drill two small (1/8" ish) holes on the outside of the cover flange and into the block in a non-critical area. You can then tap in a dowel, and pein the cover over slightly to hold it in place, for a high confidence approach.
None of this is especially difficult or hard, it is just time consuming. In the engineering world, it is called "fitting" - making sure thinks are working correctly and have clearances as required. In the engine building world, it would be termed blueprinting- the kind if attention to detail that is used for race engines. Anyone who puts critical components on an engine without checking stuff like this is asking for trouble, but it all takes time...
Last edited by turbodave; 08-08-2012 at 08:28 PM.
#36
08-03-2012, 07:15 PM
Thanks for all the input everyone, especially turbodave. The, drive hub on the new pump was the piece I was referring too. If you push it through the inner gear and try and push it out the other end, it will not let you. The old center gear would not let the drive hub out at all. So, I installed the new one in such a way that the hub cannot be pushed out when trying to fit the front cover back on the block. Prior to turning it around, it was being pushed out the front when mounting it on the crank shaft.
After Installing it, I decided to back a few bolts out and none of them looked biased to one side, so I proceeded to finish installing everything else. I Wish I had read the above post prior to having installed it already
. So I did not test if it was tight or smooth, so I suppose there is still a bit of mystery on whether mine has a messed up block or not. The gal at the dealership said it had some “major work” done to it at 60k but would not tell me what it was. I installed it the way it came off, left the dowel pins in their place. If I need to replace the gears again I will dremel of a piece of the offending dowel when I have it apart next time. However, I feel as though it will be more likely that either the HGs go, the sleeves slip, or the block cracks before the oil pump goes again lol. Although it is still in the back of my mind, I'm not going to worry about it as much now.
As of right now, she is back on the road. Sounded like crap for the first 30 seconds or so of running. Then the oil light went out and she sounded very smooth after that. Definitely sounds smoother at idle than before, however at 2 and 3k rpms there is still that gargley noise it makes. Sounds a bit like a diesel truck... W/e though, she sounds better than most, runs nice and cool thanks to the new water pump and fan clutch. Thank you all very much!
After Installing it, I decided to back a few bolts out and none of them looked biased to one side, so I proceeded to finish installing everything else. I Wish I had read the above post prior to having installed it already
. So I did not test if it was tight or smooth, so I suppose there is still a bit of mystery on whether mine has a messed up block or not. The gal at the dealership said it had some “major work” done to it at 60k but would not tell me what it was. I installed it the way it came off, left the dowel pins in their place. If I need to replace the gears again I will dremel of a piece of the offending dowel when I have it apart next time. However, I feel as though it will be more likely that either the HGs go, the sleeves slip, or the block cracks before the oil pump goes again lol. Although it is still in the back of my mind, I'm not going to worry about it as much now.As of right now, she is back on the road. Sounded like crap for the first 30 seconds or so of running. Then the oil light went out and she sounded very smooth after that. Definitely sounds smoother at idle than before, however at 2 and 3k rpms there is still that gargley noise it makes. Sounds a bit like a diesel truck... W/e though, she sounds better than most, runs nice and cool thanks to the new water pump and fan clutch. Thank you all very much!
Last edited by LRScott; 08-03-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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