Trailhead chevy ls engine swap
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From: Seattle, WA
I thought in the discussion on Discoweb there were serious concerns of passing inspections in many states. The discussion and statement says the engine and other management systems will play well together, but I'm not sure.
Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a great idea, but there seems to be a bit of unknown based on what I read.
Frankly, for that amount as a turn key solution, it seems more logical/safer just to get a redone Rover 4.6. But that's me. The mpg and power gains are nominal based on what I read, and the redone 4.6 should last a good long time and was designed from the factory to be in there. Maybe I'm just lazy, but it seems when you piece part a frankenstein machine together with one (major) component that much better, you are neglecting the other issues that could come up.
In other words, if the end goal is a more reliable and efficient and readily available motor, but it doesn't play absolutely perfectly with the existing stuff, you are continuing the legacy of the Disco being something that constantly needs to be monkeyed with. I guess my philosophy is a multi-billion dollar OEM with teams of engineers know how to make it all play well together better than a few individuals. Again, I don't want to dump on the idea as options are always good, but this one seems a bit far fetched to me.
Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a great idea, but there seems to be a bit of unknown based on what I read.
Frankly, for that amount as a turn key solution, it seems more logical/safer just to get a redone Rover 4.6. But that's me. The mpg and power gains are nominal based on what I read, and the redone 4.6 should last a good long time and was designed from the factory to be in there. Maybe I'm just lazy, but it seems when you piece part a frankenstein machine together with one (major) component that much better, you are neglecting the other issues that could come up.
In other words, if the end goal is a more reliable and efficient and readily available motor, but it doesn't play absolutely perfectly with the existing stuff, you are continuing the legacy of the Disco being something that constantly needs to be monkeyed with. I guess my philosophy is a multi-billion dollar OEM with teams of engineers know how to make it all play well together better than a few individuals. Again, I don't want to dump on the idea as options are always good, but this one seems a bit far fetched to me.
Where would you buy your "redone 4.6?" Where's the block coming from, because no one is casting new blocks. Bottom line is that if you keep the car stock, expect headgaskets every 100k if you're lucky. There's a reason that Land Rover had to retire the Discovery name in the USA and thats because most 03's and 04's don't make it to 90k miles.
"Far fetched"? Wtf Eric Brown has 2 running and driving cars with over 10k miles on them with no error codes. No error codes and fully functioning Monitors = no issue with emissions. The LS engine is fully us certified.
Or you could continue to trust the "billion dollar oem" that told my brother that it's completely normal for his Evoque to consume a quart of coolant per month.
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Um, they still have a Discovery model (last gen seemed a bit Freelander like, but the current one seems pretty cool to me).
So I'm very much a noob and don't know as much as many and I fully accept that the engine was poop out of the factory. However, I am stand by my statement that fixing one weak link in a chain does not make the entire chain strong. 2 exceptional examples is far less than than the thousands still on the road (with issues solved or not I'm sure, but the point is, 2 is not a strong data set).
And my focus is not on the engine itself. That component is proven. I'm talking more about the rest of the pieces of the chain.
I don't want to dump on the idea, I just think for similar money you can get an engine in there that was designed to be there and will last as long as someone will most likely keep the truck before the chassis rusts out from under them.
Atlantic British is one place I've seem short and long blocks that look to have addressed the major design faults.
I dunno. I didn't mean to start a pissing match, it is just not a solution that is for me and thought I'd opine. Carry on.
So I'm very much a noob and don't know as much as many and I fully accept that the engine was poop out of the factory. However, I am stand by my statement that fixing one weak link in a chain does not make the entire chain strong. 2 exceptional examples is far less than than the thousands still on the road (with issues solved or not I'm sure, but the point is, 2 is not a strong data set).
And my focus is not on the engine itself. That component is proven. I'm talking more about the rest of the pieces of the chain.
I don't want to dump on the idea, I just think for similar money you can get an engine in there that was designed to be there and will last as long as someone will most likely keep the truck before the chassis rusts out from under them.
Atlantic British is one place I've seem short and long blocks that look to have addressed the major design faults.
I dunno. I didn't mean to start a pissing match, it is just not a solution that is for me and thought I'd opine. Carry on.
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 801
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From: Seattle, WA
Um, they still have a Discovery model (last gen seemed a bit Freelander like, but the current one seems pretty cool to me).
So I'm very much a noob and don't know as much as many and I fully accept that the engine was poop out of the factory. However, I am stand by my statement that fixing one weak link in a chain does not make the entire chain strong. 2 exceptional examples is far less than than the thousands still on the road (with issues solved or not I'm sure, but the point is, 2 is not a strong data set).
And my focus is not on the engine itself. That component is proven. I'm talking more about the rest of the pieces of the chain.
I don't want to dump on the idea, I just think for similar money you can get an engine in there that was designed to be there and will last as long as someone will most likely keep the truck before the chassis rusts out from under them.
Atlantic British is one place I've seem short and long blocks that look to have addressed the major design faults.
I dunno. I didn't mean to start a pissing match, it is just not a solution that is for me and thought I'd opine. Carry on.
So I'm very much a noob and don't know as much as many and I fully accept that the engine was poop out of the factory. However, I am stand by my statement that fixing one weak link in a chain does not make the entire chain strong. 2 exceptional examples is far less than than the thousands still on the road (with issues solved or not I'm sure, but the point is, 2 is not a strong data set).
And my focus is not on the engine itself. That component is proven. I'm talking more about the rest of the pieces of the chain.
I don't want to dump on the idea, I just think for similar money you can get an engine in there that was designed to be there and will last as long as someone will most likely keep the truck before the chassis rusts out from under them.
Atlantic British is one place I've seem short and long blocks that look to have addressed the major design faults.
I dunno. I didn't mean to start a pissing match, it is just not a solution that is for me and thought I'd opine. Carry on.
Lots of flawed assumptions here.
The Discovery name was retired in the USA for the 2005 model year through 2015 when the model name was re-introduced for the new Freelander as the "discovery sport"
The Discovery 3 and D4 were called LR3 and LR4 here because the D2 in the USA was an umitigated disaster. They all fail. Think about that for a second when you're congratulating yourself on your "data set". Your "opine" is just that, an opinion based off of stuff you've read but which unfortunately is eminently searchable and so will be read by the next poor sod that would like to buy a cool looking straight axle British truck.
Land Rover doesn't support the D2. Parts supply is being end of life'd. If you want an example, go try and buy a set of oil cooler lines. What BMW did to the D2 borders on the criminally negligent.
My issue with your statement is the dismissing of Eric's work with no background knowledge whatsoever. LS in a Defender is an every day swap, same for the RRC and D1. The only difference with the D2 is that the D2 used a newer version of the ZF transmission that required a computer controller. So it's not clear to me whether your point is about the LS - LT230 - ZF combination or somehting about the D2 specifically. The Bosch ecm has been run on lots of different types of cars, mostly bmw's. Why would it be far fetched to think it can run a different v8?
Camel Trophy
Joined: Nov 2012
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From: Longview, Texas
As dgi 07 said, we researched this issue to death. Not simply googling, but also speaking with people who have done various related swaps, Marks, etc. I ran up a huge bill one month talking to Australians on my cell phone. We have read countless threads, manuals, pinout diagrams, .. I'm wearing myself out just remembering it.
Dgi is an honest to G-d mechanic and knows his stuff. I'm just a hobbyist, at best.
To do a real top notch swap and make a Disco as fast as a Porsche (literally) costs about 30,000. That's replacing everything from the engine to the wheels. And that assumes you can do some fab work yourself. That's gets you an LS6, Camaro transmission, upgraded axles, custom driveshafts, a Toyota transfer case, and an OEM looking install. I love my Disco, but not to the tune of another 30k.
A garden variety Chevy engine (lsx, lm7, etc.) is more reasonable but that's where it gets complicated because it is powerful enough to tear up our drivetrains from the transmission to the wheels (the transfer case might survive). The best solution, which is what they are doing (I think) in the 10k kit is to adapt the Rover electronics to the Chevy sensors and just physically adapt the motor to the truck and transmission (no small feat. The nose of the torque converter has to be adapted, as does the flywheel to flexplate, with a margin of error of approximately ZERO); if it destroys the transmission or something else, just get new ones on ebay. dgi 07 perfected that idea before we knew about the kit and his solution has been proved. Check YouTube for a 4.3 Chevy powered Disco, done by a forum member (different engine but same concept using Rover electronics). But if you want a stronger transmission, or want a parallel ecu, or want to use a separate controller for your own transmission, the complexity and costs spiral to dizzying heights.
In my opinion, by the time the 4.6 Thor engine arrived, that poor Buick block had been pushed so far beyond the reliable setup it once was, it was basically useless from reliability, power, and economy standpoints and it doesn't hold a candle to either a SBC or an LS block. The engines suck now and they sucked when they were brand new. Robert Booth said it best: a stinking pile of CRAP. And made worse every year of production in the name of emissions and due to worn dies. They are light, that is all. The appeal of a Chevy swap, for me, is to bump the power a little and make a more reliable setup. Our Engines cannot be easily upgraded. Our Engines cannot be cheaply replaced or fixed. A used LM7 in decent shape, locally. Is about 500-700 dollars for a complete engine. A land Rover FRONT COVER costs 500 by itself, which is what you have to buy the first time your oil pump gears break. Discos are great trucks, except for their Engines and electronics. I still wish I'd gotten one of those brand new Disco Is that were still on the lot when I bought my Disco II. But I've had it so long now, the seat fits my rear end exclusively and even though it works as well as an old dog with heartworms it is still my dog. I have mothballed mine (drive it once a week) in waiting for a good Chevy solution, and spent a small fortune on replacement DD vehicles (because when I started talking about getting one, the Mrs. reasonably demanded one for herself, too). My hope persists.
FWIW, I don't know how you patent an adapter plate that has been previously made by many people and presents nothing novel; it is just difficult to make correctly. You would have to have some real secret sauce, indeed, to get that past the USPTO. And I do know a little more about that than the average bear. As a kit I think the major value of the adapters is in the difficulty of having one made yourself and the liability for any damage or injury traceable to the product.
I'd like to see someone sell the adapters for the transmission and some good motor mounts, then some easy way to adapt the sensors. If I could find those for a reasonable price I'd be driving a Chevrover in less than a month.
Dgi is an honest to G-d mechanic and knows his stuff. I'm just a hobbyist, at best.
To do a real top notch swap and make a Disco as fast as a Porsche (literally) costs about 30,000. That's replacing everything from the engine to the wheels. And that assumes you can do some fab work yourself. That's gets you an LS6, Camaro transmission, upgraded axles, custom driveshafts, a Toyota transfer case, and an OEM looking install. I love my Disco, but not to the tune of another 30k.
A garden variety Chevy engine (lsx, lm7, etc.) is more reasonable but that's where it gets complicated because it is powerful enough to tear up our drivetrains from the transmission to the wheels (the transfer case might survive). The best solution, which is what they are doing (I think) in the 10k kit is to adapt the Rover electronics to the Chevy sensors and just physically adapt the motor to the truck and transmission (no small feat. The nose of the torque converter has to be adapted, as does the flywheel to flexplate, with a margin of error of approximately ZERO); if it destroys the transmission or something else, just get new ones on ebay. dgi 07 perfected that idea before we knew about the kit and his solution has been proved. Check YouTube for a 4.3 Chevy powered Disco, done by a forum member (different engine but same concept using Rover electronics). But if you want a stronger transmission, or want a parallel ecu, or want to use a separate controller for your own transmission, the complexity and costs spiral to dizzying heights.
In my opinion, by the time the 4.6 Thor engine arrived, that poor Buick block had been pushed so far beyond the reliable setup it once was, it was basically useless from reliability, power, and economy standpoints and it doesn't hold a candle to either a SBC or an LS block. The engines suck now and they sucked when they were brand new. Robert Booth said it best: a stinking pile of CRAP. And made worse every year of production in the name of emissions and due to worn dies. They are light, that is all. The appeal of a Chevy swap, for me, is to bump the power a little and make a more reliable setup. Our Engines cannot be easily upgraded. Our Engines cannot be cheaply replaced or fixed. A used LM7 in decent shape, locally. Is about 500-700 dollars for a complete engine. A land Rover FRONT COVER costs 500 by itself, which is what you have to buy the first time your oil pump gears break. Discos are great trucks, except for their Engines and electronics. I still wish I'd gotten one of those brand new Disco Is that were still on the lot when I bought my Disco II. But I've had it so long now, the seat fits my rear end exclusively and even though it works as well as an old dog with heartworms it is still my dog. I have mothballed mine (drive it once a week) in waiting for a good Chevy solution, and spent a small fortune on replacement DD vehicles (because when I started talking about getting one, the Mrs. reasonably demanded one for herself, too). My hope persists.
FWIW, I don't know how you patent an adapter plate that has been previously made by many people and presents nothing novel; it is just difficult to make correctly. You would have to have some real secret sauce, indeed, to get that past the USPTO. And I do know a little more about that than the average bear. As a kit I think the major value of the adapters is in the difficulty of having one made yourself and the liability for any damage or injury traceable to the product.
I'd like to see someone sell the adapters for the transmission and some good motor mounts, then some easy way to adapt the sensors. If I could find those for a reasonable price I'd be driving a Chevrover in less than a month.
Last edited by Charlie_V; Jan 15, 2017 at 08:30 AM.
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Wow. Y'all are getting riled up about an opinion of putting the same same back in.
I'm not dismissing, doubting, or in any other way disparaging dude's ability to make it all work. He's a professional mechanic (I'm assuming) while I'm a keyboard cowboy and although have had a reasonably long career in the telematics industry working directly with OEMs at the factory level, it might give a little insight in what it takes to make something work as a complete package. I just don't think it would be perfect- as any non-standard swap wouldn't be until they have years and many thousands of units. Think outside this particular example to any OEM with a new car. They don't just do the engine. They have the entire vehicle to think about or Ralph Nader comes knocking.
So then, once again, my simple thought was that IN MY OPINION putting what was originally in there- albeit inherently flawed in some ways- is a safer bet for OVERALL vehicle reliability based on a cost/benefit analysis of that to a non-standard engine. That's all.
Please don't mistake that for poo pooing dude's solution, business model, or livelihood. I love reading about the Merc OM 617 being put into RRCs, or Defenders or whatever. And if it's a toy that you don't really care that's it's not as reliable as a new Camry off the lot, then it rocks. For me, in all the cars I've owned over the years I've only put 100k on one, and with that in mind an original motor whose integration into the platform is a very well known quantity is a safe choice FOR ME.
Hell, in 10 years we're all going to be converting to electric cars anyway, so it's not like it matters as we're all rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
I'm not dismissing, doubting, or in any other way disparaging dude's ability to make it all work. He's a professional mechanic (I'm assuming) while I'm a keyboard cowboy and although have had a reasonably long career in the telematics industry working directly with OEMs at the factory level, it might give a little insight in what it takes to make something work as a complete package. I just don't think it would be perfect- as any non-standard swap wouldn't be until they have years and many thousands of units. Think outside this particular example to any OEM with a new car. They don't just do the engine. They have the entire vehicle to think about or Ralph Nader comes knocking.
So then, once again, my simple thought was that IN MY OPINION putting what was originally in there- albeit inherently flawed in some ways- is a safer bet for OVERALL vehicle reliability based on a cost/benefit analysis of that to a non-standard engine. That's all.
Please don't mistake that for poo pooing dude's solution, business model, or livelihood. I love reading about the Merc OM 617 being put into RRCs, or Defenders or whatever. And if it's a toy that you don't really care that's it's not as reliable as a new Camry off the lot, then it rocks. For me, in all the cars I've owned over the years I've only put 100k on one, and with that in mind an original motor whose integration into the platform is a very well known quantity is a safe choice FOR ME.
Hell, in 10 years we're all going to be converting to electric cars anyway, so it's not like it matters as we're all rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Personally I have no issues with the 3.5L, 3.9L, 4.0L, or even the 4.2L. Lucas/GEMS/Bosch. However like I've stated many times the 00-02 P38, and the 03-04 D2's were at the end of their production lives. The RR was being replaced with a 4.4L BMW V8 and entirely new body. The D2 was being replaced by the LR3 with a 4.4L Jaguar engine. Land Rover knew this & they didn't care to fix or improve the Buick 215 based V8. It's time was up and all Land Rover had to do was finish out the D2 production and the Buick 215 went straight into the history books.
They removed an oil cooler that was standard as far back as 1987 in North America, they had front cover issues in 03 as quality control dropped, and yes due to emissions they had to make it run hotter to meet with newer Emission Laws.
I owned 2 03 D2's back when they were brand new. I never had any front cover issues, and while I sold one at 65K (so I could get an SE7 vs SE) the SE7 made it to 160K before I traded it in and I never once changed out a set of head gaskets on it. I was running around at probably 210-215F all the time, and the only issues I ever had was with the purge control valve, broken air box lid (common 4.6L issue), and spark plug wires falling apart.
Now fast foward to 2015 when I got back into LR's and I got myself a clean 04 D2. It ticked, dash was destroyed, and it had just had it's head gaskets done (D2 had 106K on it). We of coarse know a lot more these days so I changed out the Thermostat to a 180F unit, and did a few other tweaks. I got it to be reliable, but honestly the always fogging up headlights, SAI faults (finally fixed em!!!), and then I saw an 02 Kalahari for sale so I sold my 04 D2 and got the Kalahari.
It had 221K when I bought it, and the engine is nothing at all like that 4.6L. It's smooth, quiet, and without SAI there is a lot more room to work under the hood. Since then I've had 4-5 03-04 D2's pass thru my hands and not a single one of them with a 4.6L were anything like my 99-02's with the 4.0L.
So for me the perfect D2 would be an 04 with a 4.0L in it, oil cooler, 180F Thermostat, Tundra colored interior, White or Green Exterior, SE with dual AC.
Besides that dream D2 I'm plenty happy with my 99 & 02 D2's with the 4.0L.
I think the earlier Buick 215's LR had can be reliable, but I would never call a Bosch 00-02 P38 4.6L or 03-04 D2 4.6L reliable.
I think this swap to an LS is great. However I'd make sure to get an all aluminum LS3 personally to keep the weight down vs a cast iron block. I like that someone has created an option to keep a P38/D2 Bosch setup on the road. Our D1/D2's have a beautiful body design that is completely gone in today's 4x4's. Now they just look like 4DR minivans vs LR Africa Off Road/Explorers. I plan on keeping my LR's for many many years. I'd rather dump 10K into that setup vs 70K for a silly 4x4 Tahoe/Suburban..
They removed an oil cooler that was standard as far back as 1987 in North America, they had front cover issues in 03 as quality control dropped, and yes due to emissions they had to make it run hotter to meet with newer Emission Laws.
I owned 2 03 D2's back when they were brand new. I never had any front cover issues, and while I sold one at 65K (so I could get an SE7 vs SE) the SE7 made it to 160K before I traded it in and I never once changed out a set of head gaskets on it. I was running around at probably 210-215F all the time, and the only issues I ever had was with the purge control valve, broken air box lid (common 4.6L issue), and spark plug wires falling apart.
Now fast foward to 2015 when I got back into LR's and I got myself a clean 04 D2. It ticked, dash was destroyed, and it had just had it's head gaskets done (D2 had 106K on it). We of coarse know a lot more these days so I changed out the Thermostat to a 180F unit, and did a few other tweaks. I got it to be reliable, but honestly the always fogging up headlights, SAI faults (finally fixed em!!!), and then I saw an 02 Kalahari for sale so I sold my 04 D2 and got the Kalahari.
It had 221K when I bought it, and the engine is nothing at all like that 4.6L. It's smooth, quiet, and without SAI there is a lot more room to work under the hood. Since then I've had 4-5 03-04 D2's pass thru my hands and not a single one of them with a 4.6L were anything like my 99-02's with the 4.0L.
So for me the perfect D2 would be an 04 with a 4.0L in it, oil cooler, 180F Thermostat, Tundra colored interior, White or Green Exterior, SE with dual AC.
Besides that dream D2 I'm plenty happy with my 99 & 02 D2's with the 4.0L.
I think the earlier Buick 215's LR had can be reliable, but I would never call a Bosch 00-02 P38 4.6L or 03-04 D2 4.6L reliable.
I think this swap to an LS is great. However I'd make sure to get an all aluminum LS3 personally to keep the weight down vs a cast iron block. I like that someone has created an option to keep a P38/D2 Bosch setup on the road. Our D1/D2's have a beautiful body design that is completely gone in today's 4x4's. Now they just look like 4DR minivans vs LR Africa Off Road/Explorers. I plan on keeping my LR's for many many years. I'd rather dump 10K into that setup vs 70K for a silly 4x4 Tahoe/Suburban..
Last edited by Best4x4; Jan 15, 2017 at 01:46 PM.
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Agree 100%
once you've played with different generations of the Rover v8 it becomes blatantly obvious that the Bosch incarnation sucks as delivered by the factory.
Running the LS on those same Bosch electronics is an awesome idea as long as there's a kit so that we're not all floundering re-solving the problem. I do have the BOM for an LC9 into RRC swap but that only helps with mounts.
once you've played with different generations of the Rover v8 it becomes blatantly obvious that the Bosch incarnation sucks as delivered by the factory.
Running the LS on those same Bosch electronics is an awesome idea as long as there's a kit so that we're not all floundering re-solving the problem. I do have the BOM for an LC9 into RRC swap but that only helps with mounts.
Three Wheeling
Joined: May 2016
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Only in the USA was the D3 and D4 known as LR3 and LR4.
IMHO, the way to go is for a rebuilt cross bolted top hated 4.6l by a reputable engine builder. Quite a bit of power can be had out a 4.6 with the right cam, heads and exhaust. Limiting factor (around 280 - 300hp) though is the Thor intake and the Bosch ECM.
IMHO, the way to go is for a rebuilt cross bolted top hated 4.6l by a reputable engine builder. Quite a bit of power can be had out a 4.6 with the right cam, heads and exhaust. Limiting factor (around 280 - 300hp) though is the Thor intake and the Bosch ECM.
