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How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)

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How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)

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Old 04-06-2012, 01:32 AM
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Default How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)

This is a write up I did on repairing my Land Rover tick. If the pictures don't show up in the body, I will try to post them separate. I have several other photos, pm me if you need more pics or info. Enjoy!



The Infamous Land Rover Tick Tick Tick……………..
How to pin cylinder sleeves in a Land Rover Discovery 4.6L
This is designed to be an extremely boring example of how to “pin” the cylinder sleeves on a Land Rover Discovery. It is lengthy and dull. It is a form of initiation for those to follow. I spent countless hours searching the darkest corners of the internet reading mindless, horribly written posts about unrelated topics that had seemed promissing when I started reading six pages earlier. I purposely made this as drawnout as possible to perhaps make myself feel better about the time I spent reseaching and dreaming of this solution. I am not the first person to do this, just the first one to provide some real insight on the process.
I would like to thank some who had useful knowledge to lend (“allow me to steal”). I would also like to tell those that were arrogant ****** to **** off. I really appreciate it when some idiot thinks its better to make you do everything the hard way, thanks fellas! I’ll remember that! For future reference, when someone asks politely for photos of some work that you did, please send a link or something a little better than “I posted them a couple years ago. Go search for them.” Some people out here really are looking for some genuine help. Just remember that next time someone asks for help, they may just plan to post a really boring “how to” on that topic that could help some more people out some day.
First of all, I must say that the following is based upon my experience with my 2003 Land Rover Discovery. This write-up should not be used as a “how to” or specific directions on any sort of repair. I researched this process for several months before doing any of this. You should do your own research and be prepared for the worst. I got very little information from the web about these procedures and used my own judgement and skill to accomplish this. You may not be capable of a repair like this and should seriously consider any risk you will be taking.
THIS “REPAIR” COMES WITH A VERY HIGH RISK OF COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF YOUR ENGINE AND OTHER RELATED COMPONENTS. THIS SHOULD ONLY BE CONSIDERED AS A LAST RESORT REPAIR. THERE ARE PROBABLY A THOUSAND DIFFERENT WAYS TO RUIN YOUR ENGINE WHILE DOING THIS.
DO NOT DO THIS REPAIR IF YOU NEED YOUR LAND ROVER AS A MAIN VEHICLE AS CATASTROPHIC FAILURE IS ALMOST GAURANTEED!!
I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT HOW YOU WRECKED YOUR ENGINE.
Now that I have that out of the way, lets begin. I can not stress how important it is to do your homework on this. Read everything you can and ask a lot of questions about your problem first. Make sure you properly diagnose your engine problem first. There are many steps to troubleshooting a problem like this.
This is what I did.
My wife and I bought a 2003 Land Rover Discovery this past October. After about a month of ownership, we started to notice a loud tick after the vehicle warmed up. The tick would not be present while the engine was cold but only after it warmed to full operating temperature did it appear. The sound was very hard to find. It really seemed to come from everywhere. It was just as loud on both sides of the vehicle as well as under the vehicle. I used a stethascope to try to track it down. I checked the entire exhaust including the SAI system. I noise checked the valve covers, intake, injectors, heads, block, oil pan, flex plate, front cover, etc. I even removed the serpentine belt and ran the engine to eliminate the accessories to no avail. The tick was coming from deep inside the engine.
I attached an external oil pressure gauge to verify good oil pressure. I had a reading of 45psi cold at idle, 53 psi cold at 2000 rpm, 13 psi warm at idle, 45 psi warm at 2000 rpm. Although this is within Land Rover specifications, I was less than impressed with those results. I decided to replace the oil pump as my vehicle was within the “vin range” for oil pump issues.
I started this repair with an ATF flush. I drained the oil and changed the oil filter. I added six quarts of ATF and ran the engine for 30 minutes at an idle. I slowly increased the engine rpms to aroung 2000 for short periods of time. After the 30 minutes I drained the ATF and did not notice any real coloring of the ATF. I removed the front cover and replaced the pump. The front cover looked good. No wear on it where the oil pump operates and the oil pump gears looked good. I cleaned the pressure relief valve and debated about replacing my timing chain. I decided to let the chain go for now as it was not the source of my noise and I was really just trying to increase my oil pressure to see what effect it had on the ticking noise.
While the oil pan was off, I thoroughly cleaned the pan and oil pick up tube. There was a fair amount of sludge deposits but nothing that was restricting oil flow. The screen on the pick up looked clean. I removed my rod bearings to inspect them and noticed they were just starting to show copper. I also removed the lower main bearings and found no real wear. I reinstalled my rod and main bearings and decided I would order some new standard size bearings just for fun at a later date.
I reinstalled everything and also installed a remote oil pressure gauge in the engine bay for monitoring pressure. I topped the engine off with 10W-40 oil and crossed my fingers. At first start up everything was promissing. All vitals looked good and my oil pressure was at 52 psi cold at idle, 52 psi cold at 2000 rpms, 25 psi warm at idle, 52 psi warm at 2000 rpm. A decent increase in oil pressure, nice!
After the engine got to full operating temperature, tick tick tick tick…… This sound was really starting to haunt me. I knew the rhythm in my sleep. I decided to pull spark plug wires to try to isolate the noise to a specific cylinder. I removed individual wires one at a time, replacing one if the noise did not change and removing another. No change. I tried to remove opposing cylinders together thinking that the opposite cylinder was firing and applying force to the cylinder I was diagnosing. Nothing. I ran a garden hose on the sides of the cylinders trying to “shrink” a particular cylinder to eliminate a “slipped sleeve”. You guessed it, nothing. At his point I had tried every additive for fuel, oil, engine cleaning treatment, seafoam, water wetter to lower engine temperatures and other miracle treatments. The manager at my local Car Quest was getting a kick out of all of this. I buy about $600 worth of parts every month for my fleet of boats and trucks for my business and he was more than willing to try to raise my monthly expendatures. I was getting pissed.
The Land Rover forums that I visit seemed to have a debate as to wether or not a Land Rover can “slip” a sleeve. After another couple of months of researching and soul searching, I had decided that a slipped sleeve, or liner, was the only possible solution. I was sure of this after two things happened. The first was around Christmas.
My family and I traveled about 200 miles one way to visit my wife’s family. I pulled my enclosed snowmobile trailer on this trip. I was at the end of my rope with this engine and just didn’t care anymore. So, I set the cruise at 75 mph and hauled ***. I was secertly hoping the engine would let go so that I could do a retrofit to a 5.3l Chevy. This was my plan B. No f****ing way was I spending $4000+ for another Land Rover pos engine. Well after completely rigning the crap out of my Rover for 3 hours, we arrived at our destination. I opened my door and was about to shut the truck off. Something did not sound normal. NO TICK!!!!! WTF!!! I was actually pissed! I fight and struggle with this pig and this is what cures it? Damn!
We cruised around for 5 days while visiting and made the trip home. Still no tick. Three days later, my nemisis reared its head. Tick tick tick…………. Welcome back a**hole! It is my theory that the extended heavy loads on the engine increased the cylinder temperature enough, for a long enough period of time that the offending sleeve temporarily reset itself into the block. We made this same trip unloaded several times before this trip and after with no similar results. It was only with the extended time and temperature resulting from a heavily labored engine that this result could be seen.
The second piece of evidence is the You Tube videos that I am sure anyone reading this has seen already. These would be the videos of the individual who placed his Rover block on a grill to bring it to operating temperature and was able to pull his sleeves in and out at will. If you still don’t think Rover sleeves can bouce around as they please, you probably also think that the government is your friend and that reality TV is real.
I was thoroughly convinced that my engine noise was a slipped sleeve (liner). As stated earlier, I was not going to invest a s**t ton of money into this block and felt it was my duty to finally try to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together for others who are cursed with the same poor vehicle purchasing judgement as I. I decided to try to pin the sleeves on my Rover engine in an attempt to pevent movement of the sleeve inside of the block. I found only a couple of individuals who had done a procedure like this before. The information they were willing to give was marginal at best. One individual had pinned his block but not actually run the engine. The other had completed his project but gave no results as to how it performed. Now that you are bored to death, here is what I did.
I placed the Rover on stands with the front axle suspended so the tires where about one inch off the ground. I removed the engine mounts on the passenger side and the starter to gain access to the block. I also removed the drivers side mount and exhaust manifold. I suspended the engine during this process. I then removed the oil pan to gain access to the inside of the cylinders. I rotated to crankshaft so the forwardmost piston on the passenger side was about half way up the cylinder. I placed rags inside the piston skirt and another around the connecting rod. I thought about applying a film of grease in the cylinder and the surrounding areas to catch any metal shavings but felt that this could also allow for a more difficult cleanup process as shavings could become caught in an area where compressed air or cleaner could not remove them as they would stick to surfaces.
Its Showtime!
I chucked up a #7 drill bit into my 90 degree drill and located a place for my first hole. The cylinder is pretty self explanitory while viewing it from the outside of the block. The cylinder water jacket extends from the cylinder head down to just below the travel of the piston rings. Below this the shape of the block narrows until it is only about a ¼” thick from the outside to the inside of the cylinder. This narrowed area is only about ¾” tall but allows ample material to drill and tap holes that would be below the water jacket but still high enough on the sleeve to be effective. I centered my holes vertically in this narrowed area and rotated them slightly around the center reinforced webbing of the block. I tried to drill as square to the cylinder as possible. I feel this is very important because if you were to tread a bolt in that was somewhat angled, part of a thread could protrude into the cylinder while the remainder of the threads still remained inside of the hole. The protruding portion could catch the piston skirt causing damage if not sanded smooth while the opposite side of the thread could be too far into the threads to effectively secure the sleeve. It is very difficult to be perfect under these conditions but certain patience can be used to ensure a best case drilling job here. If something is in the way of the drill to not allow you to be square, move it or find another solution.

I drilled two holes into each cylinder on the passenger side of the block and two holes on the front two driver side cylinders while only one per cylinder on the two rear driver side cylinders. I placed a hole on either side of the webbing for the cylinders that two holes were possible. My reasoning for two holes is complicated but I will try to explain. If one is good, two is better! I told you it was complicated.

Seriously though, I initially drilled and tapped one hole in my first cylinder and found that it is extremely difficult to set the threads at the proper depth. I first tried a stainless ¼ 20 bolt. I found that the bolt head did not want to sit well against the round cast surface of the block. I then tried a stainless alen head bolt and although it was better, it was a real pain to get the bolt the correct size. I must have removed and installed this bolt 30 times. I was actually worried that I was wearing out the aluminum threads I just created. I ended up using stainless allen set screws. These are ½” long and I used stainless nuts to lock them onto the block. This would allow me to thread the set screw in to the exact depth while still having the nut provide tension against the block to lock it in place. I went one step further which proved to be very important.
The tip of the set screws were a bit beveled. In order to provide the most positve holding surface, the threads need to be as flat as possible. This will alow the set screw threads to be perfectly flush with the inside of the sleeve. This is important because the sleeve is very thin and you want as many threads engaged with the sleeve as possible without protruding into the cylinder. With a very flat end, you can literally thread it in and feel the exact moment the screw enters the inside of the cylinder, back it off a hair, and hold the set screw with an allen wrench while loking it down with the nut. I ran my screws on my belt sander that I calmped in my vise. I chucked the screws into a cordless drill to turn them while they were run over the sander. If you are very careful to be square in all directions to the belt sander, this is a very effective way to machine a square end. It worked great.

Now lets back up a step.
While I drilled these holes, I greased the drill bit several times per hole. The grease catches the metal shavings and keeps most of the mess on the outside. It is actually amazing how little material enters the inside of the engine. The material that does is ok because we placed our rags inside to catch this previously. I also greased my tap in a similar manner. I chucked my tap on my drill and ran it into the holes trying to follow the angle of the hole carefully. Also, after drilling and tapping each cylinder, I rotated the crank to align the piston for the next cylinder to be drilled. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Unless you want to pull some old school trick about drilling cooling holes into your pistons, follow this advice!
After all of the holes were drilled and tapped, I lined up my set screws and nuts on my bench. I used Loctite primer on all of these. I CAN NOT STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ENOUGH! The primer will make the Loctite work at least 10 times better, no s**t! The primer does increase the dry time of the Loctite considerably. We had some setting up in as little as 3 minutes. Some lock nuts were locked onto the set screws before we had a chance to lock the nut down. This all has to do with the principle of Loctite. If you apply Loctite onto a bolt, you could probably let it sit out in the open for 15 minutes and then the Loctite will just start to set. If you apply the Loctite and place a nut over the threads, it will start to set immediately. This is because the setting process is accelerated under the lack of air between the threads and the nut. I soon learned to thread the nut just on the very end of the screw then apply Loctite to the remaining threads. After the screw is in place, the nut will be turned over threads that have Loctite on them and all is well. We primered the holes in the block before we inserted the screws also. I used red Loctite as I wanted a permanent bond for obvious reasons. There is probably a better Loctite to be used here but it is what I had and I felt the 350 degree temp rating was sufficient. It is also worth noting that the use of stainless screws in this application is necessary to prevent electrolysis. With a aluminum block and a steel sleeve any other type of screw would start the electrolysis process and could have bad results. My wife is a licensed Electrologist, so I understand the chemical process of this. Ten points if you actually know what an Electrologist is and what they do!
So, I drilled and tapped, I Loctited my screws, I threaded them in, now what? Well, run the screws in until they a PERFECTLY flush with the inside of the sleeve. I mean PERFECT. It takes some doing but you can run the screw in with one hand while feeling for it with the other, I would actually suggest running them a couple thousandsths under flush. Then use some emery cloth to de-burr the area. Clean the cylinder really well and move onto the next. If you haven’t figured out that you need to rotate the crank to gain access to the next cylinder, then you probably also drilled those piston cooling holes I was talking about. If that is the case then I recommend you run the set screw through your pistons and I gaurantee your tick will be gone! Your engine won’t crank over, but the tick will no longer bother you for sure.

After all of the screws were in, I started to button things up. I installed the rod and main bearings that Santa brought over some months back. I know that some will think that possibly the bearings were the source of the tick and that pinning the sleeves did nothing. Not the case. My bearings were just barely worn and only the crank side of the bearing showed any wear. If these bearings were loose enough to hammer like that, then both sides of the bearing would show wear. Not the case.

I topped it off with a dose of 10W-40, installed a new oil filter, drained the oil again because I forgot to tighten the oil pick-up tube, refilled it with oil, double checked that I installed everything that was removed previously and prepared to fire it up.
Fingers crossed, here we go.
The initial start up was not with out some obvious stress. There are literally a thousand ways to FUBAR your engine while doing this. I just hoped that it wasn’t #999 that did it! Initial startup had some good noises. First, the oil had enough time to completely drain from the engine. That meant things rattled a little longer than after a ususal oil change. This was troubling because I was trying to listen for any abnormal noises for the first couple of seconds. Well, drain your oil that long and everything sounds abnormal for at least 10 seconds. Secondly, the stupid SAI pump wanted to run. This makes any chance of catching a problem impossible. Add them both together along with the stress and you swear you just turned your engine into the most expensive paper weight ever! After about 30 seconds everyting started to settle in. After about 2 minutes of running, the noise from hell was about to revisit me! Tick tick tick…… Same tempo, same type of tick only a little more subdued and softer. I reacted the same when I would run the rpms up and down. F**K!!!!!!!! Well at least I had fun!
The results……..
Did I fix it? Is the noise gone? Once the engine got near full operating temp, the noise dissapeared and never returned. The ticking heard after start up was a slightly collapsed lifter. It started to quiet itself and I ran the rpms up to around 3500 for about 10 seconds and when I returned to idle it was gone. I know this was not the same tick because it did it while the engine was still cold. The sleeve noise was only present while hot and the lifter noise subsided after reaching temperature. The Rover now runs quiet as a church mouse and continues to do so even after some very rough driving and the usual easy driving it will see for the rest of its life. I don’t really see this as a permanent repair. I feel that the sleeves could eventually wear the threads off of the screws and start tapping away again. This will however stop them from pounding the hell out of my head gaskets and give me a little peace while driving through the bank drive thru. This repair may last for 100,000 miles, I don’t know. What I do know is this. Land Rover sleeves have no rules to follow. They are like that stupid kid down the street. He wears his pants around his knees, he doesn’t seem to understand that a bill of a cap faces forward, he does what ever he wants whenever he wants, and he usually finds a way to **** you off and f**k up your day! Rover sleeves move. I think I proved that here. The question is why. Well, if you are not already bored out your mind and are not considering suicide as a good alternative to reading more of my BS then read on.
Land Rover bought this engine design from Buick. That’s the first problem. Then Rover thought they would be smart and change the process of installing the sleeves. OK, that might work, and it did. That is until they realized that they suck at it. Some of the older engine models were dropping sleeves out the bottom of the block. Oops! So Rover had another brain fart, lets machine a flange on the bottom of the block for the sleeves to rest on. We won’t also machine a recess in the top of the block and flange our sleeves, baby steps. Just about the time the lawsuits were subsiding and all seemed well with their engines, Rover decided to go ***** out and bore their engines to 4.6L. This is where the fun begins. See, Rover just about had it right. The later 4.0L engines were pretty good. Very few, if any really had this same problem. The only difference was that when they bored to 4.6L they also thinned the wall of the block some more. While drilling these holes it was very evident that little material stood between the sleeve and the rest of the world. My holes are 3/8” from the outside of the block to the indide of the cylinder at best. When Rover kept boring out this engine design, they made it so thin that the block expands so much more and faster than the previous designs. That’s it. Period. Now, I’m no automotive engineer, I’m actually a High School drop out (I did eventually go back to get my diploma after the ARMY found out, for what it matters) ,but I do have about a billion hours experience doing just about everything possible (except mathematical figurementations based upon the amount of hours in the lifespan of an average human being) and feel that I am capable of deducing the basic engineered problems in such things as engines. I guess what I am trying to say is that Land Rover should have hired a bunch of High School drop outs to design their 4.6L overbore. It would have been cheaper in the long run.
 
Attached Thumbnails How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)-droid-3-photos-2220.jpg   How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)-droid-3-photos-2221.jpg   How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)-droid-3-photos-2222.jpg   How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)-droid-3-photos-2237.jpg   How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)-droid-3-photos-2240.jpg  

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Old 04-06-2012, 07:43 AM
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Cool. A few more pix would be nice. Would you consider edit of the background and opinion info, so it could be condensed a little to make it into a sticky? Most of us share your viewpoints and low opinion of Rover cost saving and performance improvements.
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:33 AM
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interesting but i lost you on the high school drop out part. they did hire them to do the sunroofs and window regulators and those bits. they just didn't hire ones like you.

as usual, i'm sure that's the tick i have now. danny i'm gonna do what he did. today.
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:50 AM
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I would be more than happy to edit this. I wrote it late last night and was really getting some good therapy out of it. I will edit it in a few days, I think if I make just a few more suffer through it, I'll feel better. I'll get more pics out too. Glad you guys like it.

Everyone I talk to about what I did thinks I'm straight up looney! Glad you guys share a little of my looneyness!
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:53 AM
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slanginsanjuan

I can't determine if this is right for you but I'm sure you know your issue. I would do it again in a minute. I may buy ticking Rovers for dirt just to do this fix!

Get some good help, leave the beers alone for awhile, and go for it!!
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 01:03 PM
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Rover did not bore the 4.0L to reach 4.6L. The stroke is longer on the 4.6L, both engines share the same bore size. The blocks are the same.

Still a great write up though.
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 02:55 PM
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Hmm, did not know that they just changed the stroke. I just ASSumed they bored it out. Thanks for the info and that pretty much blows my theory up!
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rudawski View Post
slanginsanjuan

I can't determine if this is right for you but I'm sure you know your issue. I would do it again in a minute. I may buy ticking Rovers for dirt just to do this fix!

Get some good help, leave the beers alone for awhile, and go for it!!
i have no idea what my issue (truck) is. everytime i read something i'm sure i have the same problem. i'm learning and liked your write up...totally insane and just my style.
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rudawski View Post
Hmm, did not know that they just changed the stroke. I just ASSumed they bored it out. Thanks for the info and that pretty much blows my theory up!
I'd stick with that theory just to 'tick' off some peoples...would be fun.
Great write-up.

Slang, are you done with yours yet?
 
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:54 PM
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Default summary of rudawski's post:

Allow me to shorten it for you


Originally Posted by rudawski View Post

My wife and I bought a 2003 Land Rover Discovery this past October. After about a month of ownership, we started to notice a loud tick after the vehicle warmed up.

Did I fix it? Is the noise gone? Once the engine got near full operating temp, the noise dissapeared and never returned. The ticking heard after start up was a slightly collapsed lifter. It started to quiet itself and I ran the rpms up to around 3500 for about 10 seconds and when I returned to idle it was gone. I know this was not the same tick because it did it while the engine was still cold. The sleeve noise was only present while hot and the lifter noise subsided after reaching temperature. The Rover now runs quiet as a church mouse and continues to do so even after some very rough driving and the usual easy driving it will see for the rest of its life. I don’t really see this as a permanent repair. I feel that the sleeves could eventually wear the threads off of the screws and start tapping away again.



If this isn't proof, I don't know what is. Congratulations on fixing your truck.
The two vids on the Youtube are mine btw...

All we need is another dozen folks to try this, and perhaps, just perhaps, you will finally convince the "select few" who still don't believe this is the problem... Naaah, you'll never convince them - it was the ATF flush that did it, or perhaps the new filter... LOL
 
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