without doubt the p400 is “zippier” or faster 0-60 under full throttle application. However that wasn’t the question at hand. Drive them back to back for just your own sake if you’re curious. I was ready to order the 400 but after driving the 300 doubt entered the conversation

 

You are correct - this is a pointless argument. It's impossible to have a meaningful discussion of relative performance based entirely anecdotal perceptions of "zippiness" and "power delivery smoothness" while studiously ignoring all the quantitive data that are actually available.

 

You've lost me. It's faster "0 - any speed", and "any speed - any higher speed". What is the question at hand?

 

Now it's my turn to say I don't believe ANYONE here has said the P400 is "the way to go" in this chassis (because, and it is, 25% more powerful). And truthfully you're preaching to the choir if you're suggesting there are qualities and reasons to select lower power output vehicles at times. Examples from my choices include:

* My wife's ride for almost 10 years before the Defender was a V6 Grand Cherokee we purposely chose over the V8 largely for economy and perceived lack of need of the extra power. And TWO of my favorite motorcycles currently in the fleet make ABOUT 50 hp, one of them (that maybe I like best) only puts down about 40 to the rear wheel. I get it.

So trust me when I say THAT I AM NOT making an argument for the superiority of one over the other (not subjectively, though I'll objectively argue it in capabilities all day long). I'm just questioning your observations on limited test drives. I wonder IF you might feel differently with a little more time behind the wheel. Of course, if you don't (or don't care to at this point) that's cool too. It's all good. I do not fault a man for his wants (within reason lol).

Without intent or desire to offend it has sounded like from the start the reason for this thread was to simply solicit some conformational bias, which I guess we all do from time-to-time.

When people ask me if the power of a given bike or car "will be enough" I always respond the same way "I can't say, that's a very personal and subjective thing".

You do make me want to grab a ride in a P300 for comparison's sake. But I just haven't noticed a lack of smooth ride (we've got the 19" wheels so there's less of a difference), or a lack of smoothness (that wasn't caused by my own foot). I certainly wouldn't assume there's less complexity/maintenance, though you're right there's definitely a difference in cost.

At the end of the day I think you can and should confidently do what makes you happy, and it sounds like that is to buy a P300. Go for it.

I might myself one day....

BUT, if you REALLY are torn, then I'd at least give the P400 another drive.

Good luck with your decision and have fun! (I always find shopping vehicles a lot of fun).

 

Excellent points throughout.

I spent about 400 miles in a P400, so I got plenty of seat time in the 400. Specifically did this in order to confirm that's the spec for me. Given the current availabilities, it isn't easy to find in stock defenders with the proper trim levels at dealers. However I was able to find a P300 on 19"s, which I decided to only drive as "just in case" scenario because I wasn't supremely happy with the P400 on 20" wheels. One can call it a confirmation bias if you wish. But it was an observation... I expected to hate the P300 and just go ahead and order a P400. However it quickly became apparent that the P300 may be a very decent choice as well that in my observation were superior to the P400. Hence the reach out to others to see if my experience was more of a fluke or a common situation. The wheel situation has been more than confirmed and my special order was only going to have either 18's for the P300 or 19"s for the P400, anything larger is a detriment for my use.

At this point the only things left to do are:
1. To get another P300, but for a long term test... and this is presenting to be quite expensive at $250+ a day on turo.
2. Another test drive of a NEW P400 which is somewhat limited compared my 400 mile experience in one already through a prior rental to take out a variable of a possible defect in the model that I drove.

 

Question at hand was to ask if any other members drove a P300 back to back to a P400 to see if a P300 in non "performance driving" conditions presents itself as a smoother and more balanced powertrain.

If you haven't driven a P300 this becomes a spreadsheet exercise which is not the point. Objectively there is no denial of the numerically superior power output of the P400.

 

Well, there you go. ok then.

Except maybe if a computer program is moderating the throttle and trying to apply just enough torque at each wheel to make the vehicle move -- without spinning the tires enough to dig four holes.

 

maxmk8, your main takeaway from this should be the best thing you can do is get the 300, save yourself 10K and if you so desire use it to option your Defender as you see fit.

Your second, third and fourth takeaways ought to be that owners of the P400 like what they have too, in all cases could have gotten the P300 but obviously elected not to, and that if you hadn't come to the thread with backhanded compliments, damning by faint praise and (sometimes not so) thinly-veiled swipes at fellow owners engine choices you might have gotten a less visceral and more helpful response. You reap what you sow, sometimes. Of note, none of the P400 owners took a swipe at the P300 while explaining what we like about the P400.

 

Yes, I spent two solid days in early 2020 at a special JLR event in California (flew all the way from the east coast to do so) to drive them back to back. I did this in order to confirm what all the data and calculations suggested should happen -- and to compare the outcome to what I desired in the vehicles.

At the time, my "plan" was to replace my LR4, as I needed the ability to tow a three horse trailer. This meant mathematically that I would need to buy the P400 (and expect to change the rear brake calibers -- which I expected would be made available in the aftermarket.

I wanted to keep my 2016 Evoque because I loved its 4WD system -- and confirm that the Defender had adopted it and properly added a low-speed transfer case and air suspension. If they did, then JLR would have on its hands IMO the best 4WD system on any vehicle anywhere.

What I found is all things noted on this email chain. Specifically:

The biggest surprise is the flat torque curve and matched state of the P300 blew me away. Never have I driven such a smooth, non-whiny, flat-torque-curve 4 cylinder. I come to learn from others on this site that turbos have come a long way over the past several years. So, I came to understand.

The second surprise is the sheer power of the P400. I come from a long line of AMG Mercedes and the P400 is the same torque and power of a couple of AMGs in the family stable -- an absolute rocket. Yes, it takes a special perspective to properly drive an overpowered vehicle in day to day life. Managing the power is the task.

Third surprise is the perfection of the rear wheel braking which was also refined in the Evoque (and taken from the LR4 period big JLR vehicles. The rear braking was perfect on both the P300 and P400.

The fourth was the excellence of the suspension geometry. To achieve that on an off-road vehicle, and to stuff away the diffs as JLR has is extremely impressive.

In the end, I decided: I am past desiring to manage the power of the P400, every day. It would not be a thrill -- instead it would be a pain. I am a late adopter to electronics and I did not feel like volunteering to help JLR pioneer their hybrid systems (too many complaints from the RR Sport crowd). The P300 drivetrain was a complete, positive surprise. JLR had achieved in both the REAL task at hand -- to integrate air suspension, the clutched differentials, all the logic in TR2, the low-speed, the 8 speed transmission with two VERY different powerplants into the best off-road vehicle off the shelf on the market.

My only problem was Towing. So I kept my 2011 LR4, bought a back up in a 2013 LR4, sold the Evoque and bought the D110 P300. When the V8 D130 shows up I will finally be able to fully replace the LR4s -- while keeping the P300 for off-road seriousness.

Everyone has to struggle with this choice. It is the nature of the vehicle.

Enjoy!

 

could you link me to the RR sport complaints ?